Adult apprenticeships - whos done one?

[2011G6E]

Every interaction I have had with the apprentice scheme makes me loath it more and more.
I know guys who have been in their thirties with families who have had to fall back on an adult apprenticeship and are virtually in the poorhouse.
My own son was working as a trades assistant for a few years in a furniture place, was offered an apprenticeship, and once he started the work was exactly the same but his wage was cut by more than half.

It's criminal...employers can claim they "aren't getting value from the employee until they're trained" or some such rubbish, but it;s basically cheap labour. Our other son did a hairdressers apprenticeship and was getting $6 an hour!!! In 2013 for christs sake!! He ended up leaving after a couple of years...no way you can live on that "wage" on your own. If that was an Asian country employing young people for that level, people would be rallying in the streets. And if they're under 25 and single, forget any government assistance from Centerlink like rent assistance or a health care card...they're "not an independent person" and have to rely on mum and dad to supply them with everything until they're 25. Way to squash someones self esteem..."You're living on your own, 200km from your parents in another city, working for a living...but you're not independent...you still have to rely on mummy and daddy".


Interestingly, the apprentice pay wage idea goes back to the forties, when people would quite often leave school at 12 or 13 to start work (and obviously be living at home) especially in manual labour jobs and engineering factories, and be living at home where they didn't need a big wage. By the time they were a qualified tradesman, they were not even twenty normally, and ready to start working life and a family.
Now kids stay at school until they're often 17 or 18, sometimes do a bit of uni, and enter the workforce proper at maybe 19 or 20 or older. Some already have a kid and are living on thier own when they start an apprenticeship.

Times have moved on, society has changed...but the concept of slave-level apprenticeship wages still hangs on after 70 or 80 years...

[FormulaFG]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Every interaction I have had with the apprentice scheme makes me loath it more and more.
I know guys who have been in their thirties with families who have had to fall back on an adult apprenticeship and are virtually in the poorhouse.
My own son was working as a trades assistant for a few years in a furniture place, was offered an apprenticeship, and once he started the work was exactly the same but his wage was cut by more than half.

It's criminal...employers can claim they "aren't getting value from the employee until they're trained" or some such rubbish, but it;s basically cheap labour.


Interestingly, the apprentice pay wage idea goes back to the forties, when people would quite often leave school at 12 or 13 to start work (and obviously be living at home) especially in manual labour jobs and engineering factories, and be living at home where they didn't need a big wage. By the time they were a qualified tradesman, they were not even twenty normally, and ready to start working life and a family.
Now kids stay at school until they're often 17 or 18, sometimes do a bit of uni, and enter the workforce proper at maybe 19 or 20 or older. Some already have a kid and are living on thier own when they start an apprenticeship.

Times have moved on, society has changed...but the concept of slave-level apprenticeship wages still hangs on after 70 or 80 years...

You are correct. I did a 1 year traineeship some years ago. The whole time they played the fiddle about it cost them xyz amount to train us, yet they were getting substantial incentives from the government. It was a bad company that at the end of the day wanted cheap labour.

I am prepared to cop a little bit of a pay cut, but when I see people saying $8/hour I'm a little worried. Thats too much of a drop unfortunately. Whats this I hear about centrelink making up the difference to get it up to a respectable amount?

[superyob]

I made a fairly good living as a diesel mechanic before i switched careers and I always understood that motor mechanics were paid much less. However, I do know of one very successful motor mechanic who went into business for himself and i would not call him poor...

[MR REKLAW]

I did a electrical apprenticeship at age 38,after working as Ta for the company for 3 months,did a deal with the boss,worked 9 hour day for 8 hours pay,but got payed at ta rate $17.35.Was payed at ta rate for first 3 years,then switched to 4th year rate when reached 4th year.Was working in major construction doing mechanical services install,so a diverse range of work.Also on EBA rates,so when tradesman wage went up so did ta rate,so on a good wicket.No longer in the game due to injury.So if you can get a ta job in the sector your interested in,and show some initiative,could lead to a prosperous future.All the best in your search.Cheers Geoff.

[Trevor 57]

There are not 'substantial' subsidies from the Government.

An employer gets $4000 over the term of the apprenticeship, $1500 up front and $2500 upon completion from the Federal Government for Certificate III qualifications which is where all the trades sit, hardly 'substantial' .

Cert II is not a trade qual.

Depending on which State the employer/employee is will depend on how much State Government assistance there is, generally State Governments assist with paying some of the costs associated with training, effectively the Government subsidise the training costs.

In Victoria, the Government over the last few years has dramatically decreased the amount they subsidise. They are going the lose the election at the end of this month in part due to their education cut-backs, the regional areas are not happy with the cuts

[FPV GTHO]

I think if I wanted to look at it seriously again, I'd try through the defense force

[Franco Cozzo]

I'm pretty sure the new federal government cut all incentives to employers and apprentices.

All my juniors got done over and lost their final incentive bonuses, I got in before the cut when I went qualified.

[Trevor 57]

They are still there Damo, I deal with this stuff every day, they cut the incentives for 'existing workers', the $ are still there for 'new' (within 3 months) workers

[Luke G]

The apprentices where I am are on a salary starting from about 55k in there first year, by there 4th year its over 70k!

[FormulaFG]

Originally Posted by Luke G

The apprentices where I am are on a salary starting from about 55k in there first year, by there 4th year its over 70k!

Where? Doing what?

[Luke G]

In the north west of western australia, doing mechanical and instrument / electrical apprenticeships. Quite a few adult apprentices which is great, they just want to suceed and learn.

[calais]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

There are not 'substantial' subsidies from the Government.

An employer gets $4000 over the term of the apprenticeship, $1500 up front and $2500 upon completion from the Federal Government for Certificate III qualifications which is where all the trades sit, hardly 'substantial' .

Cert II is not a trade qual.

Depending on which State the employer/employee is will depend on how much State Government assistance there is, generally State Governments assist with paying some of the costs associated with training, effectively the Government subsidise the training costs.

In Victoria, the Government over the last few years has dramatically decreased the amount they subsidise. They are going the lose the election at the end of this month in part due to their education cut-backs, the regional areas are not happy with the cuts

Cert 3 is a joke.

There is no ethical reason for someone to cop bs working conditions and unsustainablly poor wages. Especially not for a weak as cert 3 which can be obtained for a more than reasonable outlay. I detest the idea that an 'employer' is doing the apprentice any kind favour. Its the opposite if anything.

[LyleXR8]

Originally Posted by Luke G

The apprentices where I am are on a salary starting from about 55k in there first year, by there 4th year its over 70k!

my wife knows the HD diesel lecturer at the tafe in town here, been at it for 30+ years and in a way this is a semi retirement for him as its no longer getting down n dirty in the elements all day long, but even with the experience etc, 2nd year diesel fitters are earning heaps more than him

[boss310]

Originally Posted by calais

I detest the idea that an 'employer' is doing the apprentice any kind favour. Its the opposite if anything.

Do you employ apprentices? trust me if not, a first or second year in a fitting and machining shop is not doing me any favours. I have apprentices because I'm passionate about my trade and manufacturing in this country.

We would spend two days making a $1200 shaft on a manual centre lathe rather than bashing one out in two hours on an NC to train an apprentice, so that isn't a favour to me, when they drop a $400 piece of carbon, that isn't a favour to me, leaving the lid off a $200 tin a paint in summer....you get the idea, the riches some here think the government provides would be swallowed up within the first year.

A lot of employer bashing here, we're not all ****** and aren't made rich by our "slaves"

Spike

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by superyob

I made a fairly good living as a diesel mechanic before i switched careers and I always understood that motor mechanics were paid much less. However, I do know of one very successful motor mechanic who went into business for himself and i would not call him poor...

Big $$$ outlay to start up a shop, many hand tools required, good scan tool (and that might mean more than 1) and a hoist, those few alone would run you probably close to $40K let alone lease on a shop + insurances, memberships to places like VACC and bills.

I've got around $10K in hand tools and power tools I collected to do my job as an auto electrician efficiently, and there is no scan tool in that price and its all SP Tools/Gearwrench stuff for the hand tools so its not like its Snap-on for that coin and the power tools are DeWALT stuff so again nothing top of the line.

You really need to build up that customer base first and build up a name, then you're competing with the other 500 mechanics in town too with established business or a dealership unfortunately.

I take my metaphorical hat off to business owners.

Originally Posted by boss310

the riches some here think the government provides would be swallowed up within the first year.

My apprentice drilled through a fuel line and I had a good laugh at him, we rang up Mercedes with the part number and they said they can get one but they've never actually had one sent to Australia before, it would be the first one ever, so we got Pirtek to repair it for us.

5 minutes later I popped a $3500 PSM in a Mercedes Sprinter by accident, literally one stand of copper from a 3mm wire I connected to it was touching an earth, blew the fuses but unfortunately the PSM died, it made that horrible electronics burning smell and when you smell that you know its game over for what ever just made it lol.

We had a few spares we pulled out of old ambo's before they hit the auctions but they seem to change between series of vehicles, so the spares wouldn't work in the newer cars so we had to buy the new one.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Big $$$ outlay to start up a shop, many hand tools required, good scan tool (and that might mean more than 1) and a hoist, those few alone would run you probably close to $40K let alone lease on a shop + insurances, memberships to places like VACC and bills.
I've got around $10K in hand tools and power tools I collected to do my job as an auto electrician efficiently, and there is no scan tool in that price and its all SP Tools/Gearwrench stuff for the hand tools so its not like its Snap-on for that coin and the power tools are DeWALT stuff so again nothing top of the line.

You really need to build up that customer base first and build up a name, then you're competing with the other 500 mechanics in town too with established business or a dealership unfortunately.

I take my metaphorical hat off to business owners.



My apprentice drilled through a fuel line and I had a good laugh at him, we rang up Mercedes with the part number and they said they can get one but they've never actually had one sent to Australia before, it would be the first one ever, so we got Pirtek to repair it for us.

5 minutes later I popped a $3500 PSM in a Mercedes Sprinter by accident, literally one stand of copper from a 3mm wire I connected to it was touching an earth, blew the fuses but unfortunately the PSM died, it made that horrible electronics burning smell and when you smell that you know its game over for what ever just made it lol.

We had a few spares we pulled out of old ambo's before they hit the auctions but they seem to change between series of vehicles, so the spares wouldn't work in the newer cars so we had to buy the new one.

I think he worked from home on an acreage estate...

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Every interaction I have had with the apprentice scheme makes me loath it more and more.
I know guys who have been in their thirties with families who have had to fall back on an adult apprenticeship and are virtually in the poorhouse.
My own son was working as a trades assistant for a few years in a furniture place, was offered an apprenticeship, and once he started the work was exactly the same but his wage was cut by more than half.

It's criminal...employers can claim they "aren't getting value from the employee until they're trained" or some such rubbish, but it;s basically cheap labour. Our other son did a hairdressers apprenticeship and was getting $6 an hour!!! In 2013 for christs sake!! He ended up leaving after a couple of years...no way you can live on that "wage" on your own. If that was an Asian country employing young people for that level, people would be rallying in the streets. And if they're under 25 and single, forget any government assistance from Centerlink like rent assistance or a health care card...they're "not an independent person" and have to rely on mum and dad to supply them with everything until they're 25. Way to squash someones self esteem..."You're living on your own, 200km from your parents in another city, working for a living...but you're not independent...you still have to rely on mummy and daddy".


Interestingly, the apprentice pay wage idea goes back to the forties, when people would quite often leave school at 12 or 13 to start work (and obviously be living at home) especially in manual labour jobs and engineering factories, and be living at home where they didn't need a big wage. By the time they were a qualified tradesman, they were not even twenty normally, and ready to start working life and a family.
Now kids stay at school until they're often 17 or 18, sometimes do a bit of uni, and enter the workforce proper at maybe 19 or 20 or older. Some already have a kid and are living on thier own when they start an apprenticeship.

Times have moved on, society has changed...but the concept of slave-level apprenticeship wages still hangs on after 70 or 80 years...

Yes times have moved on we are in the age of entitlement....

An apprentice gets paid and they still sook...you're not meant to live off an apprentice wage. it's meant to compensate you for out of pocket expenses while you are learning on the job.

You know how much I was paid when I was getting my qualifications at University? $0... I had to stack shelves at the local supermarket...my mum gave me $50 a week when she could.

My mates that were apprentices got paid a wage and sooked like you.

[Davehoos]

I have an apprentice-20 year old. Heavy Vehicle Plant Mechanic.
how he could be better than the other 9 interviewed is amazing.

Im a government employee and the apprentice is seen as community service-written of as a dead loss before they start.. In a regional area the only way you will get future tradies is for someone [tax payer] with deep pockets to give the young a basic start.

the apprentice I have may as well be an adult. years spent waisted at arts high school-HSC-and some post school courses. Least he can read and write. but then the TAFE system gets them and we still trying to work out what he does for 5 days a month.

My boss has been to our truck supplier to get a deal with them to pass work evidence for engines and gear boxes. I did a deal for my apprentice now we need to add in the rest in the organisation-but we have to wait as we also have to share with RAAF and other government organisations.

If I owned a small business then there would be no way I could have a trainee-apprentice. its at least 3 years dead loss. then when you recover cost they move on.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Every interaction I have had with the apprentice scheme makes me loath it more and more.
I know guys who have been in their thirties with families who have had to fall back on an adult apprenticeship and are virtually in the poorhouse.
My own son was working as a trades assistant for a few years in a furniture place, was offered an apprenticeship, and once he started the work was exactly the same but his wage was cut by more than half.

It's criminal...employers can claim they "aren't getting value from the employee until they're trained" or some such rubbish, but it;s basically cheap labour. Our other son did a hairdressers apprenticeship and was getting $6 an hour!!! In 2013 for christs sake!! He ended up leaving after a couple of years...no way you can live on that "wage" on your own. If that was an Asian country employing young people for that level, people would be rallying in the streets. And if they're under 25 and single, forget any government assistance from Centerlink like rent assistance or a health care card...they're "not an independent person" and have to rely on mum and dad to supply them with everything until they're 25. Way to squash someones self esteem..."You're living on your own, 200km from your parents in another city, working for a living...but you're not independent...you still have to rely on mummy and daddy".


Interestingly, the apprentice pay wage idea goes back to the forties, when people would quite often leave school at 12 or 13 to start work (and obviously be living at home) especially in manual labour jobs and engineering factories, and be living at home where they didn't need a big wage. By the time they were a qualified tradesman, they were not even twenty normally, and ready to start working life and a family.
Now kids stay at school until they're often 17 or 18, sometimes do a bit of uni, and enter the workforce proper at maybe 19 or 20 or older. Some already have a kid and are living on thier own when they start an apprenticeship.

Times have moved on, society has changed...but the concept of slave-level apprenticeship wages still hangs on after 70 or 80 years...

Be grateful that your kids can get an apprenticeship these days, got me stuffed how small operators can afford them when given the overhead costs, big companies can absorb the costs.

The reward is when they get their qualifications.

[tut0r]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Yes times have moved on we are in the age of entitlement....

An apprentice gets paid and they still sook...you're not meant to live off an apprentice wage. it's meant to compensate you for out of pocket expenses while you are learning on the job.

You know how much I was paid when I was getting my qualifications at University? $0... I had to stack shelves at the local supermarket...my mum gave me $50 a week when she could.

My mates that were apprentices got paid a wage and sooked like you.

I'm sure your 6month holidays a year were hard.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Yes times have moved on we are in the age of entitlement....

An apprentice gets paid and they still sook...you're not meant to live off an apprentice wage. it's meant to compensate you for out of pocket expenses while you are learning on the job.

You know how much I was paid when I was getting my qualifications at University? $0... I had to stack shelves at the local supermarket...my mum gave me $50 a week when she could.

My mates that were apprentices got paid a wage and sooked like you.

You are paid on your skill levels as you learn the trade...... FACT.

By the way an apprentice still works where you did not by doing full time study, quite different to each other don't you think.

[Bourbon Ute]

At 27 I decided to started a LV mechanical apprenticeship (circa 07-08). Starting wage was $500 GROSS.
Like most apprentices, I got a second job delivering pizzas on the weekend, which helped a lot. I moved on from the first employer as I didn't see a future there/enough training (dealership).
Would be a good idea to buy some tools before you quit your current job, as buying stuff as an apprentice is tight. I got bonuses from the Gov for finishing each year, which helped, not sure if that still applies. My employer (VACC) provided heaps of tools which was great.

[FormulaFG]

Okay guys, we've gone a little astray here.

I don't want this turning into an employer vs underpaid apprentice thread. There are good employers and bad employers out there, that's a fact of life. Same too their are apprentices worth their weight in gold and ones that aren't worth the poop on the bottom of your shoe.

Some good advice in here though. Becoming a trade assistant first sounds like a top idea. Will give me a chance to prove myself worthy first and might make an employer want to pay me more.

[Dreama]

Good question mate. I'm possibly facing redundancies where I work, I'm in my mid 30's and wondered if an apprenticeship would be any good, learn something useful.

[Trevor 57]

Luckily I convinced both my sons to do trades (one builder, one chef, both qualified) instead of going to Uni on the off chance you MIGHT get a job when you finished Uni

One son (the chef) was fully qualified at 19.5, his twin brother didn't start his building apprenticeship until he was 22, he was fully qualified at 26, when qualified his boss kept him on as a 'subby' paid him $25 an hour (as a subby) but was charging him out at $50 per hour. He is now working for a big company and earning good money, his former boss did train him well. The Chef is not chefing anymore, the lifestyle wore him down.

My eldest daughter went straight to Uni after secondary school, got a Bachelor of Business (major in H.R., Accounting and did as minor in Law), got out and couldn't get a job, she finished up getting a job as a receptionist for an Insurance company.

My 2nd daughter did a Diploma of Beauty (or something) she works as a beauty therapists, waxing, nails, make-up etc

[Franco Cozzo]

I ended up as an auto electrician but I've left to go back to school, chasing the white collar career.

I started at 18, qualified at 22.

Still wouldn't mind being around cars in some form as I enjoy it, but just not on the tools, the trade ruined that for me pretty quick lol.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

One son (the chef) was fully qualified at 19.5, his twin brother didn't start his building apprenticeship until he was 22, he was fully qualified at 26, when qualified his boss kept him on as a 'subby' paid him $25 an hour (as a subby) but was charging him out at $50 per hour.

Not surprised of hearing this, the boss being one big ******* exploiting a worker for profit.
Glad to hear your son moved on.

[Trevor 57]

Karma is a wonderful thing, the builder went broke after my son (and one other) left, the former boss now works as a building supervisor for a national house builder

[calais]

Originally Posted by boss310

Do you employ apprentices? trust me if not, a first or second year in a fitting and machining shop is not doing me any favours. I have apprentices because I'm passionate about my trade and manufacturing in this country.

We would spend two days making a $1200 shaft on a manual centre lathe rather than bashing one out in two hours on an NC to train an apprentice, so that isn't a favour to me, when they drop a $400 piece of carbon, that isn't a favour to me, leaving the lid off a $200 tin a paint in summer....you get the idea, the riches some here think the government provides would be swallowed up within the first year.

A lot of employer bashing here, we're not all ****** and aren't made rich by our "slaves"

Spike

I didn't intend to insult you. Not by any stretch. Its an honourable thing to faithfully enter into mentoring an apprentice.

I was highlighting the rogue traders out there like my first employer who basically raped me of my time and effort and fully intended to continue that shameful practice. I did however detail that my second employer was of the highest order and took a vested interest in my growth of my trade skills. This is no doubt the same approach you take.

As with any industry scheme there are highs and lows and I experienced both.

[homegrown]

Doing an adult apprenticeship was the best decision I ever made.
Im now qualified Electrician but I used to work at Holdens on the production line (mind you making the same money as a Tradesman and they wonder why they cant make cars here) and thought nothing would ever happen to that place but seeing whats happened to them now and with 3,000 unskilled workers looking for work soon Im glad to have suffered 4 years of $13 to $18 an hour to gain this ticket.
The other down side is don't work 2 jobs to get through. I tried that for the 1st year of my apprenticeship and my boss was encouraging me to do so. Except the harder you work the harder you get slugged. 48c to do the dollar you earn is taxed.
Also in saying that my wife gave birth to or 1st born in my 1st year as an apprenticeship so it is quite possible to earn enough money to raise a family. and was forced to drive the coupe everyday to work for a year because I had no other car (there was $20 gone every day) but there are perks you get a work van after you prove yourself, so you save again.
I hope I have encouraged you to take the plunge go get abused and go be treated like a kid and get paid peanuts and be exploited like you've never been before.
Nah just kidding. You'll love it.