and so it begins .......

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

We've been through changes like this before, pollution gear of the 70's, the abolition of leaded fuel in 2000. The sky isn't going to fall, we'll all still have cars to drive. In reality what are we going to do about it? Generally we're an apathetic bunch.
I'm all for the better fuel quality but do wonder how it'll affect older carbureted engines. Once again though, there will be a work around and I don't see my Sunday drives changing in a hurry.

That veggie diesel swap into the pano is looking better, who knows they might give me funding.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

That veggie diesel swap into the pano is looking better, who knows they might give me funding.

Yeah I think you should
The body s name escapes me
But put in A funding request
Green energy super star

[Cav]

Get your immunity

Buy an AU

[Top_Ghia]

I have been checking out specs across various brands and models and almost every car in its basic form will fail these regs on co2 emissions.
However a lot of models “premium” engine or hybrid set up will scrape through. This will be a boom for manufacturers as it will add $5-10k to each vehicle sold.
I predict vehicle manufacturers lobby groups will be very supportive because they care about the “climate emergency”.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

I have been checking out specs across various brands and models and almost every car in its basic form will fail these regs on co2 emissions.
However a lot of models “premium” engine or hybrid set up will scrape through. This will be a boom for manufacturers as it will add $5-10k to each vehicle sold.
I predict vehicle manufacturers lobby groups will be very supportive because they care about the “climate emergency”.

No legislation of this nature is retrospective.

It will apply to new models from 2025 and all new vehicles from 2028, or whatever the dates were in the release.

It's no different from the introduction of euro4 or euro5. No real fanfare. Manufacturers are aware of these changes well in advance and will adjust the tuning and software to adapt. If unable, a new engine will be introduced.

Lots of chicken little in this thread.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by prydey

No legislation of this nature is retrospective.

It will apply to new models from 2025 and all new vehicles from 2028, or whatever the dates were in the release.

It's no different from the introduction of euro4 or euro5. No real fanfare. Manufacturers are aware of these changes well in advance and will adjust the tuning and software to adapt. If unable, a new engine will be introduced.

Lots of chicken little in this thread.

So Ford will push on with the two litre and three litre obsolete diesels till next model
Simon tell me these motors are not ancient

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kevino

So Ford will push on with the two litre and three litre obsolete diesels till next model
Simon tell me these motors are not ancient

Just looking at the timetable, you can bet that the Ranger/Everest update model will arrive just before
the December 2025 deadline for EU 6d and carry through to 2028 when the new regs will probably
spell the end of diesel Utes but maybe everyone has moved on by then……

By 2025, we will see both Hilux and Ranger with petrol hybrids /PHEVs to combat any negative publicity.
Since 90% of our population lives within 100 km of the coast, I’m betting that the majority of those Ute sales
will transition to some form of hybrid or PHEV that takes advantage of short emission free commuting.

So yeah, up to 2028, I think very little impact on diesel Ranger/Everest sales
unless people fall in love with petrol hybrid versions…

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Just looking at the timetable, you can bet that the Tanger/Everest update model will arrive just before
the December 2025 deadline for EU 6d and carry through to 2028 when the new regs will probably
spell the end of diesel Utes but maybe everyone has moved on by then……

By 2025, we will see both Hilux and Ranger with petrol hybrids /PHEVs to combat any negative publicity.
Since 90% of our population lives within 100 km of the coast, I’m betting that the majority of those Ute sales
will be some form of hybrid or PHEV that takes advantage of short emission free commuting.

So yeah, up to 2028, I think very little impact on diesel Ranger/Everest sales
unless people fall in love with petrol hybrid versions…

Wonder what the 250 000ish "On the Wallaby" caravaners will do.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Wonder what the 250 000ish "On the Wallaby" caravaners will do.

Unless they need to buy a new vehicle beyond 2028, nothing changes…

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Unless they need to buy a new vehicle beyond 2028, nothing changes…

Very little will change for any consumer market. Euro6 won't spell the end of diesel. Transport industry is no doubt already euro6 compliant.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Wonder what the 250 000ish "On the Wallaby" caravaners will do.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Just looking at the timetable, you can bet that the Ranger/Everest update model will arrive just before
the December 2025 deadline for EU 6d and carry through to 2028 when the new regs will probably
spell the end of diesel Utes but maybe everyone has moved on by then……

By 2025, we will see both Hilux and Ranger with petrol hybrids /PHEVs to combat any negative publicity.
Since 90% of our population lives within 100 km of the coast, I’m betting that the majority of those Ute sales
will transition to some form of hybrid or PHEV that takes advantage of short emission free commuting.

So yeah, up to 2028, I think very little impact on diesel Ranger/Everest sales
unless people fall in love with petrol hybrid versions…

I know plenty of people including myself who would go for Hybrid utes, this should satisfy the ones who tow or 4wding
Cheers

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by kevino

So Ford will push on with the two litre and three litre obsolete diesels till next model
Simon tell me these motors are not ancient

They’re not.

[au2000]

This would have to be the death of the good old big yank utes about then ?
Could lead to a bigger sales rush on new Ram Silverado F150 and Tundras before the deadline or will the manufacturers try and make them compliant too?

[smoo]

Originally Posted by prydey

No legislation of this nature is retrospective.

It will apply to new models from 2025 and all new vehicles from 2028, or whatever the dates were in the release.

It's no different from the introduction of euro4 or euro5. No real fanfare. Manufacturers are aware of these changes well in advance and will adjust the tuning and software to adapt. If unable, a new engine will be introduced.

Lots of chicken little in this thread.

What makers are investing in new engines?
A handful have released all new engines the last few years.
But they are all kicking the can down the road by modifying existing platforms to meet more stringent targets while most have committed to going all EV or low emissions.
And who would bother to develop new engines when a whole lot of EU countries have aimed to ban the sale of ICEs by 2030.
Same story with the heavy vehicle market, most engine platforms date back to the 1990s or early 2000s.
No point throwing hundred of millions or billions into R&D when the government of the day can make an emotional change to satisfy the climate doomers by the stroke of a pen and kill their investment dead in its tracks.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by smoo

What makers are investing in new engines?
A handful have released all new engines the last few years.
But they are all kicking the can down the road by modifying existing platforms to meet more stringent targets while most have committed to going all EV or low emissions.
And who would bother to develop new engines when a whole lot of EU countries have aimed to ban the sale of ICEs by 2030.
Same story with the heavy vehicle market, most engine platforms date back to the 1990s or early 2000s.
No point throwing hundred of millions or billions into R&D when the government of the day can make an emotional change to satisfy the climate doomers by the stroke of a pen and kill their investment dead in its tracks.

Much easier to change the government.

[five 7]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Much easier to change the government.

That just gets you the other version of the same thing.

[Top_Ghia]

Originally Posted by au2000

This would have to be the death of the good old big yank utes about then ?
Could lead to a bigger sales rush on new Ram Silverado F150 and Tundras before the deadline or will the manufacturers try and make them compliant too?

They will go hybrid.
This is the point I was trying to get across. Most cars now in there basic form won’t pass. I’m not talking big V8 or 4wd utes either.
But basic cars like a Kia Cerato or Honda Civic will not pass. These are already clean and fuel efficient cars but they won’t pass the co2 emissions test in their current form. However they will pass with their “premium” engine or hybrid set up. Generally these engines come in the top spec models that can cost $15-20k more than the base model. Sometimes the difference is only $5k.
So most manufacturers won’t be developing new engines. The systems are already out there. They may just shuffle compliant engine system into more models, at greater cost to the consumer.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by smoo

What makers are investing in new engines?
A handful have released all new engines the last few years.
But they are all kicking the can down the road by modifying existing platforms to meet more stringent targets while most have committed to going all EV or low emissions.
And who would bother to develop new engines when a whole lot of EU countries have aimed to ban the sale of ICEs by 2030.
Same story with the heavy vehicle market, most engine platforms date back to the 1990s or early 2000s.
No point throwing hundred of millions or billions into R&D when the government of the day can make an emotional change to satisfy the climate doomers by the stroke of a pen and kill their investment dead in its tracks.

What I meant was, if an existing engine can't be adapted to the new regs to become compliant then an engine will be sourced that will. A new engine for that vehicle, rather than all new engine.

Much like how the 3.2 ranger engine is now obsolete in favour of the turbo, bi turbo and v6 options.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

Very little will change for any consumer market. Euro6 won't spell the end of diesel. Transport industry is no doubt already euro6 compliant.

Correct,
Euro 6 took over from Euro 5 in 2014/2015 and diesels weren’t banned under it
(other legislation like zero emission zones).

All the different versions of Euro 6 have the same emission limits,
it’s just the way they are tested.

2.0 Panther diesel and 3.0 Powerstroke/3.0 Lion were used under Euro 6 in Fords and Land Rover
the 3.0 v6 being upgraded for US EPA emissions which are much tougher that anything Euro.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

They will go hybrid.
This is the point I was trying to get across. Most cars now in there basic form won’t pass. I’m not talking big V8 or 4wd utes either.
But basic cars like a Kia Cerato or Honda Civic will not pass. These are already clean and fuel efficient cars but they won’t pass the co2 emissions test in their current form. However they will pass with their “premium” engine or hybrid set up. Generally these engines come in the top spec models that can cost $15-20k more than the base model. Sometimes the difference is only $5k.
So most manufacturers won’t be developing new engines. The systems are already out there. They may just shuffle compliant engine system into more models, at greater cost to the consumer.

Falcon nearly lost the inline 6 with euro4 but got a stay of execution and the engine was updated to make it compliant.

Just because those base model cars don't comply in their current form doesn't mean they won't comply in the future.

With the fuel quality also changing many of these engines possibly won't take much to bring them within target.

[jpd80]

And the big difference between Euro 4 and Euro 5/6 is that the emission gear has to be guaranteed for 160,000 km
Generally, that means servicing the equipment and replacing any malfunctioning items like EGR valve or O2 sensors.

The big one for diesels is SCR/adblue injection to lower NOX. With that, most diesels are pretty much ok for Euro 6.

[roKWiz]

I guess its time for auto manufacturers to start refudging, opps sorry re calculating figures to make them fit the emission standards.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And the big difference between Euro 4 and Euro 5/6 is that the emission gear has to be guaranteed for 160,000 km
Generally, that means servicing the equipment and replacing any malfunctioning items like EGR valve or O2 sensors.

The big one for diesels is SCR/adblue injection to lower NOX. With that, most diesels are pretty much ok for Euro 6.

Except Euro 7 is around the corner which spells the death of full ICEs.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by smoo

Except Euro 7 is around the corner which spells the death of full ICEs.

Euro 7 will have to wait
Ev s will not be able to be mass produced at reasonable cost on todays supply of raw materials

[smoo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Euro 7 will have to wait
Ev s will not be able to be mass produced at reasonable cost on todays supply of raw materials

Yes, it’s another example of a pattern of completely unrealistic targets.
EU have already delayed it from 2025 to 2030.
Just like CA and another handful of US states have stalled 100% EV/hybrid new vehicle sales from 2030-2035.

[lra]

Originally Posted by smoo

Except Euro 7 is around the corner which spells the death of full ICEs.

Unless the Govts change the legislation in a panic mode due to public backlash and unrealistic targets, I can't see how ICE will be viable in the future.

It is already happening (Puma).... I don't want a 1 litre, 3 cyl engine which is turbo'd to infinity to make it perform. Might be OK for city burbling, but I am not sure about how long it would take to pass a semitrailer on an Australian country road.

Anyhow, don't know why I should care, I won't be around to see the resurgance of the bicycle, and horse and buggy (Amish style) in 2030 or '40 or '50.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by lra

Unless the Govts change the legislation in a panic mode due to public backlash and unrealistic targets, I can't see how ICE will be viable in the future.

It is already happening (Puma).... I don't want a 1 litre, 3 cyl engine which is turbo'd to infinity to make it perform. Might be OK for city burbling, but I am not sure about how long it would take to pass a semitrailer on an Australian country road.

Anyhow, don't know why I should care, I won't be around to see the resurgance of the bicycle, and horse and buggy (Amish style) in 2030 or '40 or '50.

The way I see the future is for the Elite to have vehicles and the plebs using public transport, oh the good old days of shanks pony.

[383hq]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Much easier to change the government.

Given the US military alone uses 48-50 million litres of fuel a day (mostly in Kero & diesel) I doubt any effort I make to save on the 7Litres /day in consumption will make much impact, particularly if we looked at global consumption - Chinese et al. So I won't be writing to my elected member.

Diesel/Fuel will be needed for decades to come, and there is no practical current energy density solution suitable for Australia for the current war machine, airlines, or freight forwarders (trucks, trains) given the tyranny of distance. But the politicians want to be seen to be doing something. By something I mean writing new targets and legislation.

I'd also like to be able to say that Australians would be better off trying to grow vegetables, rather then elect them to parliament, But the reality is the only constituents that will lobby, write or share concerns to said politicians will be those that intend to profit, given I suspect most will be in a similar situation to myself, so I can't blame the pollies (as much as Id like to)

Happy New Year folks

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by lra

Unless the Govts change the legislation in a panic mode due to public backlash and unrealistic targets, I can't see how ICE will be viable in the future.

It is already happening (Puma).... I don't want a 1 litre, 3 cyl engine which is turbo'd to infinity to make it perform. Might be OK for city burbling, but I am not sure about how long it would take to pass a semitrailer on an Australian country road.

Anyhow, don't know why I should care, I won't be around to see the resurgance of the bicycle, and horse and buggy (Amish style) in 2030 or '40 or '50.

I've just come back from a trip to Sydney in a Fiesta ST - 1.6L turbo 4.

She's got 218,000km on the clock now and its been pretty good aside from heat soak issues because tiny intercooler and crap AC, both of which is prevalent in every Euro Ford.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by smoo

Except Euro 7 is around the corner which spells the death of full ICEs.

No it doesn’t, you’re confusing EEC /UK government BEV legislation with the EU emission regulations

https://www.transportenvironment.org...lobby-is-back/



The new Euro 7 standard would keep the existing Euro 6 NOx limits
– 60 milligrams per km for petrol cars and 80 mg/km for diesel cars –
under the agreement reached between EU governments and MEPs.

Today’s setback saw lawmakers ditch the 60 mg/km limit for diesel cars
proposed by the European Commission.