Revamping the Falcon

[jpd80]

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Ford is almost completely sold out of SY Territory stock
and like EcoLPI customers, a lot of buyers have been waiting month after month for their release..
The next few months will be epic ones in Ford Australia's history, will they pull back from the abyss or not...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

so what is it exactly that people do want?

I'd open my mouth then the page would explode into 10 pages with fights over why RWD is better than FWD and how all you want is a monochrome screen with 6 radio presets blah blah blah........







I'll open it anyway, the current Falcon, in its current guise, sucks *** when it comes to what you get, you get an awesome engine and gearbox, thats about it, interior wise, everything is cheap and plasticy, you get a monochrome screen with only 6 radio presets, the "premium" audio option is expensive and it sucks, no HID lights even as an option, no auto up/down on all electric windows, no heated mirrors (My Fiesta has this but Focus doesn't, and its a big one for me).

The seating position is crap, its high, the steering column doesn't adjust upwards enough if you're a tall and fat bastard like me, makes it a bit awkward to get into.

The seats are very comfy though, I'll give them that.

There is a lot of little things that make up the experience of the car, especially for people like me who want to be comfortable and have things to keep them entertained while they're waiting in the car for someone or that makes the driving experience that much better.

For something that costs $35,000 you don't really get much with it.

I think that might be with our market though, have a look at what VW does with their line up, they remove standard features on their cars in other markets, then sell them to us on upper spec models or as expensive options, look at the new Focus, the American one has the Ford MySync bizzo and ours has this crappy monochrome screen.

You can't sell a car in 2011, unless its stupidly cheap with nothing, or it comes loaded up with "crap you don't need" and these days with people putting fuel economy above all else, what hope does the I6 really have? When people think Falcon, they think fuel hungry dinosaur. It has a bad reputation.

Not to mention Ford's dealership network is real bad, 99% of the dealerships treat you like crap.

Everything needs to improve on the Falcon, ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT! No matter how excellent something is, always think of improvements.

If don't fix it if it aint broke was the way, we'd all be cruising around in Model Ts.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

You can't sell a car in 2011, unless its stupidly cheap with nothing, or it comes loaded up with "crap you don't need" and these days with people putting fuel economy above all else, what hope does the I6 really have? When people think Falcon, they think fuel hungry dinosaur. It has a bad reputation.

I think ford are trying to get rid of the big hungry dinosaur reputation of the falcon by bring out new more efficient eco boost models IF IT EVER GETS HERE

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by b0son

When we were first hit with high fuel prices, that was the first serious belting Holden and Ford took.

Holden went SIDI, 3L, AFM, etc. What did Ford do? Sure, we keep hearing about ecoboost and LPI, but they're still not here.

You can debate the quality of Holden's 'improvements', but the point is, they have been seen to be doing something. What about Ford? Its still the same old same old. Holden appear to be moving forward, Ford appear to be going nowhere.

Then comes styling.

VZ to VE was revolution. Even VE to VEII was revolution in interior design. (nb. revolution as in significant visual change, not necessarily a revolution in design per se).

OTOH, BF to FG exterior was more evolution, adding to the perception that it was still largely the same car. Ditto for interior. It seemed more tweaked than redesigned.

The perception is clearly of a car that isnt changing, and as a result, the VE comes across as being the more up to date car. When it comes to cars, new buyers want the latest. Why buy in 2011 what is basically still an MY08?

FoA do appear to be very slow to adapt their products (or even just the product content) to shifts in the market and buyer preferences. IMO some time in the past 2 years there has been a significant market shift that has left the Falcon high and dry. What was that shift I wonder - there has got to be more to it than petrol prices.

I disagree with what you are are saying about styling though.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by prydey

ever ordered a car from another manufacturer?? waiting isn't unique to ford.

waiting isnt. but when i bought my last Ford, I was given one date. shortly after signing contract it postponed a month, and then a few weeks before delivery, postponed another month.

OTOH, when i got a VW, they were upfront - 8 month wait, and that is exactly how long it took.

Just bought a Renault, was told 4 month wait. And that is excatly how long it took.

If companies on the other side of the world can get their delivery date estimates correct to within a week, why cant a local manufacturer???

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

I think ford are trying to get rid of the big hungry dinosaur reputation of the falcon by bring out new more efficient eco boost models IF IT EVER GETS HERE

Agreed, then average joe mr new car buyer goes into the showroom:

Salesman: Hello there Mr Average Joe! How can I help you?

Mr Average Joe: Hello, Salesman, I'm interested in this here "Ecoboost" Falcon, I hear its really good on fuel!

Salesman: Ahh yes, Mr Average Joe! It has that new 4 cylinder engine.

Mr Average Joe: 4 Cylinder? *Starts shuddering with fear, remembering his Starfire-4 Commodore* I had a Starfire-4 Commodore back in 1980.......

Salesman:




Well, thats probably not going to happen but when I mentioned Ecoboost Falcon to Dad and 4 cylinder, he said right away "But that 4 cylinder Commodore....."

I don't think its going to get much consideration from the average baby boomer, really.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

When we were first hit with high fuel prices, that was the first serious belting Holden and Ford took.

Holden went SIDI, 3L, AFM, etc. What did Ford do? Sure, we keep hearing about ecoboost and LPI, but they're still not here.

You can debate the quality of Holden's 'improvements', but the point is, they have been seen to be doing something. What about Ford? Its still the same old same old. Holden appear to be moving forward, Ford appear to be going nowhere.

Then comes styling.

VZ to VE was revolution. Even VE to VEII was revolution in interior design. (nb. revolution as in significant visual change, not necessarily a revolution in design per se).

OTOH, BF to FG exterior was more evolution, adding to the perception that it was still largely the same car. Ditto for interior. It seemed more tweaked than redesigned.

The perception is clearly of a car that isnt changing, and as a result, the VE comes across as being the more up to date car. When it comes to cars, new buyers want the latest. Why buy in 2011 what is basically still an MY08?

VEII is basically the same as VE inside except the centre stack and vent shapes. How is that a revolution. Its still 99% the same as it was in 2006. The exterior only has a slightly different front bar that you can barely tell the difference between new and old.

FG interior was all new over BF, yet you say it seems more tweaked than redesigned.

Everything was different, yet the VEII was hardly changed but you consider it revolutionary.

Your one eye is showing. The VEII is the least changed Commodore in history over a certain timeframe by far.

But credit to them that they can keep selling them in reasonable numbers, i'd love to see what Ford could do if their sales and marketing teams put down the bong and actually did some work.

[mcnews]

I was told the other month buy a few car journos that Ford have new media types that look after the car journos, I think from Merc? Not sure, can't remember 100%. Anyway, they reckoned the new blood were good operators and things should get better.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I'd open my mouth then the page would explode into 10 pages with fights over why RWD is better than FWD and how all you want is a monochrome screen with 6 radio presets blah blah blah........







I'll open it anyway, the current Falcon, in its current guise, sucks *** when it comes to what you get, you get an awesome engine and gearbox, thats about it, interior wise, everything is cheap and plasticy, you get a monochrome screen with only 6 radio presets, the "premium" audio option is expensive and it sucks, no HID lights even as an option, no auto up/down on all electric windows, no heated mirrors (My Fiesta has this but Focus doesn't, and its a big one for me).

The seating position is crap, its high, the steering column doesn't adjust upwards enough if you're a tall and fat bastard like me, makes it a bit awkward to get into.

The seats are very comfy though, I'll give them that.

There is a lot of little things that make up the experience of the car, especially for people like me who want to be comfortable and have things to keep them entertained while they're waiting in the car for someone or that makes the driving experience that much better.

For something that costs $35,000 you don't really get much with it.

I think that might be with our market though, have a look at what VW does with their line up, they remove standard features on their cars in other markets, then sell them to us on upper spec models or as expensive options, look at the new Focus, the American one has the Ford MySync bizzo and ours has this crappy monochrome screen.

You can't sell a car in 2011, unless its stupidly cheap with nothing, or it comes loaded up with "crap you don't need" and these days with people putting fuel economy above all else, what hope does the I6 really have? When people think Falcon, they think fuel hungry dinosaur. It has a bad reputation.

Not to mention Ford's dealership network is real bad, 99% of the dealerships treat you like crap.

Everything needs to improve on the Falcon, ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT! No matter how excellent something is, always think of improvements.

If don't fix it if it aint broke was the way, we'd all be cruising around in Model Ts.

ok, lets not compare apples with oranges. the falcon is a large car competing with mainly other large cars. if someone prefers to buy a smaller car, then they didn't really need a large car.

if you compare the 'kit' of the falcon against its competition, then it still fares pretty well. fair enough the ve2 has a touchscreen but thats about it. there wasn't many reviews that went against the fg from 2008 until now.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by b0son

waiting isnt. but when i bought my last Ford, I was given one date. shortly after signing contract it postponed a month, and then a few weeks before delivery, postponed another month.

thats pretty much the same story a workmate had when he bought a new car from a holden dealer.

seriously guys, take the blinkers off.

do a google search of falcon, and this forum is one of the places that gets a lot of hits. anyone looking for a new car would be turned off if this is how the fans carry on. no wonder falcon isn't selling well.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by mcnews

I was told the other month buy a few car journos that Ford have new media types that look after the car journos, I think from Merc? Not sure, can't remember 100%. Anyway, they reckoned the new blood were good operators and things should get better.

I've heard that they have bought in some new sales and marketing types due to there being such a big chunk of new models coming up this year and next, let's hope they can do a good job as now is such a massively important time for the company with new Territory, Focus, Ranger, LPi and updated Falcon on the way.

I'm happy that they realized they needed new sales and marketing people during some extremely important launches. They could not let the old marketeers destroy the new models like they did the old ones with their pathetic attempts at marketing them.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

VEII is basically the same as VE inside except the centre stack and vent shapes. How is that a revolution.

For a series 1 to series 2, its a fairly significant change IMO. The UI for the LCD looks polished and mature even without the satnav option. The same in FG has a UI thats barely better than some of those cheap and nasty no-name aftermarket stereo/satnavs you can get.

Looking back, BA to BF, supposedly new model, yet who apart from the Ford faithful would know the difference? BA/BA2/BF/BF2, nothing different over FOUR models.

FG exterior, very easy to confuse with BA/BF from distance. Its supposed to be a new car from the BF, yet looks like new panels on the same chassis. There's no mistaking VE and what came before.

FG interior was all new over BF, yet you say it seems more tweaked than redesigned.

Yeah, fair point. When I get in any Falcon, I always get the same vibe... BA, BF, FG. They very much feel like the same car. Things are different shapes, but the quality of plastics and switchgear looks consistent and unmistakenably Ford. It looks like they bought a whole bunch of silver plastic and are looking at ways to get rid of it.

Your one eye is showing. The VEII is the least changed Commodore in history over a certain timeframe by far.

Its not a new model, is it? Its just a series 2. Ford have done less visually changing model designations.

But credit to them that they can keep selling them in reasonable numbers, i'd love to see what Ford could do if their sales and marketing teams put down the bong and actually did some work.

Its going to take more than that. The public are spoilt for choice. They're going to want more gizmos and comfort features. Ford have a long history of trying hard to NOT introduce these, or only offer them as options.

WHy is it always appearing that Ford follow Holden in terms of standard equipment and styling, rather than leading? Even now, Commodore has dual-zone climate and curtain airbags... still only optional on the Ford.

When VE first came out, everyone was... OMG, wow, what a change - it was a paradigm shift when we were all thinking cars would get smaller and lighter.

FG OTOH, a reskinned BF was the impression I and many others had.

I think Ford probably have a few too many engineers. The man on the street doesnt care how many new parts are under the skin, he wants to see and touch the changes... the automotive equivalent of 'pics or it didnt happen'.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by prydey

do a google search of falcon, and this forum is one of the places that gets a lot of hits. anyone looking for a new car would be turned off if this is how the fans carry on. no wonder falcon isn't selling well.

Why arent people complaining as vocally about the COmmodore?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Its going to take more than that. The public are spoilt for choice. They're going to want more gizmos and comfort features. Ford have a long history of trying hard to NOT introduce these, or only offer them as options.

WHy is it always appearing that Ford follow Holden in terms of standard equipment and styling, rather than leading? Even now, Commodore has dual-zone climate and curtain airbags... still only optional on the Ford.

What, like bluetooth and ipod integration? Funny how Ford had those 2 years before Holden did.

It isn't always Holden doing it first, it works both ways.

Ford had stability control and curtain airbags years before Holden did too, in the Territory.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What, like bluetooth and ipod integration? Funny how Ford had those 2 years before Holden did.

It isn't always Holden doing it first, it works both ways.

Ford had stability control and curtain airbags years before Holden did too, in the Territory.

Stability control was available in high series VZ's in 2004.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by b0son

I think Ford probably have a few too many engineers. The man on the street doesnt care how many new parts are under the skin, he wants to see and touch the changes... the automotive equivalent of 'pics or it didnt happen'.

That is Ford's fault for not advertising just how many changes went on under the skin between BF & BF2. They should have done a techy type advert which showed the bits and pieces. A combination of the Honda Accord Euro pieces, BMW balancing act and Subaru advert. Then over the top, talk about how Australia already loves the Falcon, but we've made it better under the skin because continued improvement and quality counts or some other GMHolden-esque dribble.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What, like bluetooth and ipod integration? Funny how Ford had those 2 years before Holden did.

But did it work? (http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11267751) ... and was it offered as standard before or after the Commodore?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by mcnews

I was told the other month buy a few car journos that Ford have new media types that look after the car journos, I think from Merc? Not sure, can't remember 100%. Anyway, they reckoned the new blood were good operators and things should get better.

Yes, they are from Mercedes. Hopefully they relate to the mainstream media and turn the perception around.

There is some great and critical product coming they need to get it right.

Throwing in some free trips for 'journalists' to Detroit like GMHolden have done for ever would probably help too...

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

This is how I am looking at it. We (being the people that like to discuss this sort of stuff and FoA of course) need to loose the mindset that the Falcon is/needs to be FoA's bread and butter car. That horse has bolted.

IF there is to be ANY future for a RWD Falcon post 2015 it needs to be shared with Mustang and be smaller than it is now. A RWD platform that can be scaled between 3-Series and 5-Series size would be just the ticket. That way, Lincoln would get it's RWD platforms to target the equivalent offerings from BMW, AUDI, Merc and Lexus, the Mustang would get it's larger RWD platform that would still be a credible size, and we would still be able to get RWD performance and luxury cars in the form of the next-gen Falcon.

The CD4 cars can take up the mantle of breadwinner for FoA and they should be built here.

I think a slight downsize, plus different body shapes are required. Practicality and or style is in. So, added to the sedan for the faithful. A coupe (Mustang), 4 door coupe like Merc CLS / Audi A7 and Sportwagon are key.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What, like bluetooth and ipod integration? Funny how Ford had those 2 years before Holden did.

It isn't always Holden doing it first, it works both ways.

Ford had stability control and curtain airbags years before Holden did too, in the Territory.

yep, also first with airbag in ef, and also first with 5 star rating with fg.

people like b0son only see what they want to see.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by prydey

yep, also first with airbag in ef

VR had airbag in 93

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by stevz

VR had airbag in 93

but it was 'standard' in the EF :P

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

FG interior was all new over BF, yet you say it seems more tweaked than redesigned.

Dash: As far as I can see from a quick look. The Centre console was basically the same except the location of the screen and airvents were switched, other then that it got a new cluster. Oh, plus the colour ICC got reprogrammed to be more colourfull.

But all in all, it looks fairly similar.

[jpd80]

It's interesting ho the FCAI (federated Chamber of Automotive Industry) rates car sizes,
while a mazda 3/cruze/Focus...ect could be considered almost Mid sized,
the FCAI deems them small cars.

Similarly, the difference between large mid sized cars and large cars seems to come down to engine capacity,
mid sizers all have 4-cylinder engines while large car have 6 and 8 cylinder engines. Camry = 4 cyl, Aurion = V6

Hmm, this is where the the grey gets interesting...
What if FCAI classifies Ecoboost Falcon as a large Mid sizer same as Mondeo ( EB 2.0 engine)
would that mean Ford then has two entrants in mid sized category as well as Falcon?

[prydey]

so camry is classed as mid size and aurion is large, yet essentially they are the same car.

i wonder if ford have toyed with the idea of calling the ecoboost something else, like fusion for example.

[LWB]

Originally Posted by b0son

Looking back, BA to BF, supposedly new model, yet who apart from the Ford faithful would know the difference? BA/BA2/BF/BF2, nothing different over FOUR models.

That's fair enough, there should have been more techno-savvy advertising ie the mid-80s Alloy Head ads to let people know about updates etc.

Originally Posted by b0son

FG exterior, very easy to confuse with BA/BF from distance. Its supposed to be a new car from the BF, yet looks like new panels on the same chassis. There's no mistaking VE and what came before.

This I strongly disagree with, I find that any BA/BF is easily distinguished from any FG except for the fact that the fronts on the BF/FG are similar. But especially from the back they are very different cars.

Originally Posted by b0son

Things are different shapes, but the quality of plastics and switchgear looks consistent and unmistakenably Ford. It looks like they bought a whole bunch of silver plastic and are looking at ways to get rid of it.

You would probably be correct with that observation - but then, they're mass manufactured cars - what does anyone expect here? All new base model falcons cost in the mid-30ks, you get what you pay for.

Originally Posted by b0son

WHy is it always appearing that Ford follow Holden in terms of standard equipment and styling, rather than leading?

When first released, the FG XT had aircon as standard which was still an expensive option on the VE Omega. Falcon has also never featured a space-saver as standard, always a full size spare.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by prydey

so camry is classed as mid size and aurion is large, yet essentially they are the same car.

i wonder if ford have toyed with the idea of calling the ecoboost something else, like fusion for example.

I've mentioned this before - calling it Fusion would avoid any historical stigma and give Ford a car they can go play against the Toyota twins in Government fleet sales. Give it different front and rear end styling (not hard, all Toyota do with the Camry and Aurion is change the bumpers and lights) the only problem is how it would sit in the lineup with the Mondeo

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I'd open my mouth then the page would explode into 10 pages with fights over why RWD is better than FWD and how all you want is a monochrome screen with 6 radio presets blah blah blah........







I'll open it anyway, the current Falcon, in its current guise, sucks *** when it comes to what you get, you get an awesome engine and gearbox, thats about it, interior wise, everything is cheap and plasticy, you get a monochrome screen with only 6 radio presets, the "premium" audio option is expensive and it sucks, no HID lights even as an option, no auto up/down on all electric windows, no heated mirrors (My Fiesta has this but Focus doesn't, and its a big one for me).

The seating position is crap, its high, the steering column doesn't adjust upwards enough if you're a tall and fat bastard like me, makes it a bit awkward to get into.

The seats are very comfy though, I'll give them that.

There is a lot of little things that make up the experience of the car, especially for people like me who want to be comfortable and have things to keep them entertained while they're waiting in the car for someone or that makes the driving experience that much better.

For something that costs $35,000 you don't really get much with it.

I think that might be with our market though, have a look at what VW does with their line up, they remove standard features on their cars in other markets, then sell them to us on upper spec models or as expensive options, look at the new Focus, the American one has the Ford MySync bizzo and ours has this crappy monochrome screen.

You can't sell a car in 2011, unless its stupidly cheap with nothing, or it comes loaded up with "crap you don't need" and these days with people putting fuel economy above all else, what hope does the I6 really have? When people think Falcon, they think fuel hungry dinosaur. It has a bad reputation.

Not to mention Ford's dealership network is real bad, 99% of the dealerships treat you like crap.

Everything needs to improve on the Falcon, ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT! No matter how excellent something is, always think of improvements.

If don't fix it if it aint broke was the way, we'd all be cruising around in Model Ts.

One reason I bought the Mondeo was the inclusions. Falcon you need to spend thousands to get all the options you want. Mondeo its all standard. As for fwd or rwd drive. I'm not anl about which wheels make the car move forward.

[Polyal]

There is certainly a difference between those who want all the gizmo's and those who need/want a RWD car. Thats not to say those who want RWD dont want gizmo's but it seems practicality from the normal A-B stuff is important.

I guess my opinion is that I dont think its the actual engineering behind the falcon thats the problem. Its the appearance (even though it looks good) and bells and whistle that need addressing. Lets assume that the upcoming I4T, LiLPG and TDi Tezz take care or aid to fix the fuel consumption "issue". Marketing is needed behind that too.

One Ford in theory takes care of the bells and whistles, one would assume FG2 (in bits) will be the first sign of this, its not like they make a decision and we see an impact straight away..it will take a few years. (that goes for ANY company).

I also cant see how downsizing the falcon make it more attractive. If anything that would make matters worse. Whats the point in having a sedan in RWD format the same of the Mondeo when a large percentage of the people who buy them dont care which way its driven.

My mum has a new C240...its nice and all but I am telling you now rear room is RUBBISH...and once I get in the front and put the chair back you would struggle for comfort back there...

Which brings me back to sport/luxury...which also could be seen a Lincoln by another name?

[LWB]

Originally Posted by LWB

Falcon has also never featured a space-saver as standard, always a full size spare.

I may be corrected on this as I have just seen a review of the FG which seems to contradict this, but I can't find my FG dealer brochure in order to check