ADVICE PLEASE: Mustang GT - Deposit refund?

[Walt Kowalski]

Double post sorry

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I really can't comprehend why you would put a deposit down when you don't even know what the final price will be.The concept of putting a deposit down on a car that costs an unknown amount is absurd to me.

I’m guessing you have never ordered a special car like a Mustang GT 12 months before availability, or any special other Ford , HSV or any other special model pre release?

It’s common practice but it always comes with a guaranteed refund if the price is not acceptable.

Originally Posted by b0son

Deposit placed >12 mths ago? Isnt there a 3-6mth max on chargebacks?

In any case, if it was all done over the phone, you can always go to Fair Trading and say the sales guy agreed to refund the deposit if the price was not agreed upon. If they didn't record the conversation, prove otherwise.

Normally but Westpac have said they will review it because there was no price. And they technically charged my an extra $17 without approval or advice to me.

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

In that case, I would have signed a contract of sale, with the following agreed to added clause by both parties...

"I have the right to a full refund of my holding deposit paid, less any costs prescribed in the cooling-off period applicable to purchasing new cars in my state under consumer laws if I am not happy with the final purchase price when notified in writing, within a 3 working day cooling-off period".

I bet most car salesmen chasing their targets would agree to the above and still take your deposit.

But they didn’t send me a contract. Im guessing you are in the trade?

Originally Posted by GT0132

For there to be a valid contract the price must be agreed to. The fact there was a deposit paid doesn't of itself constitute a sales contract if there was no agreement on price. Neither party has the right to vary the conditions without the approval of the other party. I think the OP should get his deposit refunded . Different story if price was agreed to, then the buyer will lose deposit for pulling out and worse may even be obliged to complete the purchase. May be different rules for cooling off periods which would be stipulated in the contract - but it seems there isn't one .

See Fair Trading in your state as a first step

That’s how I understand it too. I spoke to a very good lifetime mate this afternoon who has been selling Toyota’s for 30years. He’s a gun. He agreed with you 100%.

But it gets better. He used to work with the Ford guy. Mates words “Xyz is sometimes too clever for his own good and knowing you mate that won’t work for one second”.

Originally Posted by FTE217

How many would have had a set price when putting down deposits when GTF was announced ? in advance.
Same goes for Sprint.
When your putting a $1-2k deposit down from my 2 times 12mths + in advance it was agreed if price wasn't to satisfaction they agreed to refund deposit no problem at all.
Once pricing was released then it was either agree or disagree, I had no issue.
In Walts phone discussion mind you I would have been ****ed that they call when car arrives at dealer, I would have sorted final price before that.
In saying that, no contract signed nothing is binding - they should refund his $1k in good faith and without prejudice.

Correct IMO. Similar to any special model where price is not known.

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Personally I'm with Kevin, if a buyer needs to hassle the salesman for a price of a new car, have the salesman deny he has a price after multiple other salesman offers one, and then try the guilt trip that they have a car for him with no contract in place, there'd be no way I would trust them with my business.

I know that we are all trying to get ahead in this day and age, but the situation reeks of this salesman doing their best to manipulate the customer. Sorry, but as a customer, you don't need to take that crap, nor should you.

Sure the salesman in question seems to have made a noise about making good on the situation, but for me, his integrity is shot (assuming there's no other info withheld). No way I buy from someone who's playing games with me.

No info withheld. And yes. The bloke has blown it. I’m a FLEET buyer and he’s lost my business. Some guys are dumb and shouldn’t be selling new cars.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Tonz

my 2 bobs worth, I think your an idiot putting this up here, you should be jumping on dept fair trading for advice, for petes sake as you can see there have been many opinions expressed here which I'd guess has screwed your brain even further.

Dept fair trade or go home with your watts it between your legs.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Plus 1 to this Lot..

Quite Frankly, if you're prepared to let someone take over a Thousand Dollars from your Credit card without some type of Paper/Email trail.That Clearly defines what both parties expectations are?

You deserve to lose your Money..

[suttoo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Plus 1 to this Lot..

Quite Frankly, if you're prepared to let someone take over a Thousand Dollars from your Credit card without some type of Paper/Email trail.That Clearly defines what both parties expectations are?

You deserve to lose your Money..

Why should he? That's basically stealing. I am in the trade and you should be getting the deposit back, why he couldn't provide a price when everyone else could screams dodgy to me and I wouldn't have bought from him either even if he did match the price.

[browser351]

Im a bit confused here - you pay a dealer 1k in advance for a 2018 Mustang without getting a price and then you are able get prices from other dealers and then buy 2 Mustangs from another dealer (and I assume) without putting down any deposit.
Why did you put down a deposit in the first place?

[Oldbugger]

Ring 13FORD. Tell them your story, name the dealer. They will contact the dealer and you will get your money back. You will not be the first one that has complained about this as there are a couple of Mavericks out there that try this on.

[Big_Daz]

If there is no contract drawn and/or signed by you then they have no grounds to keep your deposit... Had you of gotten a contract, and signed it without the price confirmation being a stipulation it would be a different story but with no signed contract you have no obligation to buy the car and therefore should be entitled to a refund..

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I really can't comprehend why you would put a deposit down when you don't even know what the final price will be. If I was the salesman, I would've been seeing $ signs at that point too.

That is how limited edition cars are sold, and have been for decades.

When I bought my 40th Anniversary FPV GT back in 2007, it was a ring around to all the dealers to see who still had one available (they pretty much all sold the day they were announced and I wanted a manual) found an auto, rang the next dealer (after calling about 5 or 6 others) and they said they had an allocation of a manual and an auto left. On the spot $1000 holding deposit paid over the phone with credit card to secure the manual one in my name.

Went in the following week to complete the paperwork, then a 6 month wait for your car to arrive.

There are no test drives or tyre kicking, as there are 20 other buyers waiting to get their hands on the same car.

Buying these cars is not like buying a Camry from your local Toyota dealer.

[PG2]

Just wanted to clear a few things up.

I sold cars for 15 years including brand new cars. Yes, Ford was one of those brands. While I'll admit, that I no longer do, I did sell cars during the times of the BA introduction, BF 40th Annviversary GT and BF Cobra GT.

It was very common practice for customers to put down large sums of cash as deposit to secure a very desirable limited edition vehicle. Those customers who didn't want to do this (and there were plenty) simply missed out or at least had to settle for something in a specification that was not ideal.

Also, when you leave a deposit for one of these limited edition/hard to find vehicles not only are you securing a vehicle you are also securing the specification that you want, such as, for example, auto or manual.

For any of you reading the above who did not leave a securing deposit and still got what they wanted after they were released, good on ya, you were very lucky.

Originally Posted by Fiji

I had exact same issue.

I wanted a fgx sprint8. Salesman couldnt give me a firm price but wanted $1000 deposit to reserve a car. I even asked he commit to no more than rrp plus normal dealer delivery. Dealer said he couldnt commit? He wanted to gouge me above rrp? He said he is not ashamed to make a dollar. I responded with Im not ashamed to save a dollar either.

He was pushy for the $1000 deposit and i was worried once the car is announced he hits me for $75k when regular fgx xr8s were going for $55k driveaway.

Then it suspected that once the sprint comes, the regular xr8s would be sold out and it would be $75k or nothing.

I considered leaving a deposit but a rival dealer calls me uo and said he had 3 brand new xr8s, white, emporer and kinetic at $53900. I offered $53500 on kinetic car and deal was done. Glad I grabbed it. Highly doubt the sprint is worth $20-$25k more.

A little bit different in your case. You decided you didn't want to take the risk on losing out on the opportunity to buy a cheaper standard XR8.

I see your point though.

Originally Posted by hayseed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Plus 1 to this Lot..

Quite Frankly, if you're prepared to let someone take over a Thousand Dollars from your Credit card without some type of Paper/Email trail.That Clearly defines what both parties expectations are?

You deserve to lose your Money..

Nobody deserves to lose their money. People make mistakes, no need to kick a man when he is down.

Originally Posted by Oldbugger

Ring 13FORD. Tell them your story, name the dealer. They will contact the dealer and you will get your money back. You will not be the first one that has complained about this as there are a couple of Mavericks out there that try this on.

13FORD have no authority over dealers. They can speak to them about it but can't demand they give the deposit back.

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

If there is no contract drawn and/or signed by you then they have no grounds to keep your deposit... Had you of gotten a contract, and signed it without the price confirmation being a stipulation it would be a different story but with no signed contract you have no obligation to buy the car and therefore should be entitled to a refund..

Should be does not mean that you actually are. If there is any type of legislation that stipulates what you are saying could you post a link up please. I'm curious, not trying to be a smart ****.

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

That is how limited edition cars are sold, and have been for decades.

When I bought my 40th Anniversary FPV GT back in 2007, it was a ring around to all the dealers to see who still had one available (they pretty much all sold the day they were announced and I wanted a manual) found an auto, rang the next dealer (after calling about 5 or 6 others) and they said they had an allocation of a manual and an auto left. On the spot $1000 holding deposit paid over the phone with credit card to secure the manual one in my name.

Went in the following week to complete the paperwork, then a 6 month wait for your car to arrive.

There are no test drives or tyre kicking, as there are 20 other buyers waiting to get their hands on the same car.

Buying these cars is not like buying a Camry from your local Toyota dealer.

Yep, 100% agree.

[MAGPIE]

Since when did the 2018 Mustang GT become a limited edition, it's not a Bullitt.

[PG2]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Since when did the 2018 Mustang GT become a limited edition, it's not a Bullitt.

It's not about being a limited edition. It is about being hard to get.

When new models come out, there tends to only be limited numbers. Also, there are always early adopters who want one of the first ones into the country. In order to achieve that in the specification they want people will put down a securing deposit to make sure they get that vehicle.

[Oldbugger]

[QUOTE=PG2;6182286]Just wanted to clear a few things up.



I respect your comments PG2, but having worked next to the call centre for over 2 years if you complain loud and long you do get heard and problems do get fixed in the customer's favour.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Since when did the 2018 Mustang GT become a limited edition, it's not a Bullitt.

Correct. Its an imported vehicle like every other vehicle sold in this country, including Camry's

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

That is how limited edition cars are sold, and have been for decades.

When I bought my 40th Anniversary FPV GT back in 2007, it was a ring around to all the dealers to see who still had one available (they pretty much all sold the day they were announced and I wanted a manual) found an auto, rang the next dealer (after calling about 5 or 6 others) and they said they had an allocation of a manual and an auto left. On the spot $1000 holding deposit paid over the phone with credit card to secure the manual one in my name.

Went in the following week to complete the paperwork, then a 6 month wait for your car to arrive.

There are no test drives or tyre kicking, as there are 20 other buyers waiting to get their hands on the same car.

Buying these cars is not like buying a Camry from your local Toyota dealer.

Ok, thanks for explaining that for me.

[Crazy Dazz]

Without getting into the whole debate, the solution is simple:
Inform your bank, in writing, that the transaction was unauthorised. Period.
If your bank doesn't refund the money, take them to the ombudsman.

Now, that said, why did you pay a deposit to secure a car you didn't want to buy?
A deposit is indeed standard on many transactions, but its pointless if you can just ask for it back.
TBH if you are so desperate to secure one, that you pay a deposit before the price is available, you're waiving the right to negotiate. Don't do it.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by PG2

It's not about being a limited edition. It is about being hard to get.

But you said

Originally Posted by PG2

That is how limited edition cars are sold, and have been for decades.

A GT is not a limited edition and they are not limited in supply anymore, like I said if it was a Bullitt I could understand.


As for the rest of the argument, its 50/50 call imo, the salesman and the op have both been playing games, one lost a sale the other lost a grand (which he may or may not get back).

There is a lesson here if nothing else.

[PG2]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

But you said



A GT is not a limited edition and they are not limited in supply anymore, like I said if it was a Bullitt I could understand.


As for the rest of the argument, its 50/50 call imo, the salesman and the op have both been playing games, one lost a sale the other lost a grand (which he may or may not get back).

There is a lesson here if nothing else.

I also said...

Also, when you leave a deposit for one of these limited edition/hard to find vehicles not only are you securing a vehicle you are also securing the specification that you want, such as, for example, auto or manual.

EDIT: Go back and have another look. What you quoted is not what I said at all - that was what XB GS Coupe posted.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Since when did the 2018 Mustang GT become a limited edition, it's not a Bullitt.

Never said it was. But pay8ng a CC deposit is the only way to secure any in demand model 13 months ahead of actual release. Like somebody said, it’s not a a White Camry.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by PG2

EDIT: Go back and have another look. What you quoted is not what I said at all - that was what XB GS Coupe posted.

Sorry, your quite correct, you were agreeing with his post, my bad.

[FTE217]

The fact of the matter is - and in this case no contract signed its not the dealerships money, full stop, they have no right keeping it.
Next, putting money down for my Sprint more than 12mths prior with NO idea of RRP and the Salesmen and DP agreed - put down a deposit and its 100% refundable if we don't come to agreement once they advise me price, I went in and signed the contract on those grounds and noted..
They did this with GTF and any other special build and the same case is with Mustang due to the long lead times experienced.
Its no big deal, its only a big deal when there is a stupid salesmen or un informed DP.
Sounds like the money outlay on 2 Ponys elsewhere saved the $1k deposit figure or whatever he's still ahead.

[ratter]

How would people feel if he had of paid this money because he really wanted this car, but the dealer then sold the car to someone else and then gave him his money back

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by ratter

How would people feel if he had of paid this money because he really wanted this car, but the dealer then sold the car to someone else and then gave him his money back

Can see this side of it as well. At the end of the day the purpose of the deposit was to secure the car. There needs to be some certainty on price at the start, or at the very least agree on a price range in these situations.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by ratter

How would people feel if he had of paid this money because he really wanted this car, but the dealer then sold the car to someone else and then gave him his money back

'sorry, our allocation fell through' … car quietly sold for more to someone else...

[FG50T]

All deposits are refundable unless stipulated when paying the deposit afaik. Walt Kowalski did you put your signature on anything at all?

[ratter]

HORRIBLE EXPERIENCE AT XXXXXXX COAST FORD DEALERSHIP !

After phoning XXXXXXX Coast Ford​ on May 9 2018, I attended the above premises and dealt with salesperson Brendon XXXXXXX, being told that there were three Ford Mustang Bullitt's on order by Central Coast Ford. Two were sold and one still available, we agreed to the terms and conditions of purchase of the third Ford Mustang Bullitt and proceeded to pay my deposit of $2,500. It was all very merry with handshakes all round and I walked away with my CONTRACT FOR THE SALE OF A NEW MOTOR VEHICLE and receipt.

Feeling very good about myself at 67 years of age being able to purchase such a prestige vehicle from my superannuation fund and hoping to retire in December this year after 53 years of hard work, I thought this would be a personal reward. This was not to be, due to what only could be described as an act of PURE GREED on behalf of Dealer Principle GLENN XXXXXXX.

Since the 9th of May 2018 I have contacted Brendon XXXXXXXX twice and asked if he had a reviewed delivery date, as when I purchased the vehicle the date on the CONTRACT FOR SALE was 31/12/2018. He told me that he had been moved to Fleet sales and had no idea but he would find out and get back to me, he never did.

On Tues 14th August 2018, I rang Brendon XXXXXXXX at XXXXXXX Coast Ford and asked if he had a revised delivery date. He answered, “I will speak to my boss and get back to you.” This time he did and started to stutter and continually tripping over his tongue. After letting him talk until he ran out of air, I asked politely, “Do all those lies you just told me mean that I am not going to get my Ford Bullitt?” and he replied, “Yes that's correct.” So I asked Brendon, “Who told you to ring me and tell me those lies?”, he replied “my boss.” I asked, “Who is your boss?” and he replied Glenn XXXXXXX. I asked for his position, and he replied Dealer Principle. I said to Brendon that you need to get your boss to ring me and I hung up.

Within twenty minutes Glenn XXXXXXX rang me and proceeded to run with his story, the same as his salesman had tried to run with but unfortunately for Glenn, Brendon was not a good liar.
The very loose story was that when I purchased the vehicle I was the 4th buyer and would be put on a waiting list, Glenn XXXXXXX told me that I was told that on the day of purchase. How lame, they have taken me for a fool and treated me like an idiot.

On the CONTRACT FOR THE SALE OF A MOTOR VEHICLE there is no mention of being on a waiting list, my deposit was paid on the purchase of a Ford Bullitt.

It’s amazing how car dealers think that they are so much smarter than all of us.

Now think of this: Why would I have gone on a waiting list for 3 months when I could have secured the same car from another Dealer. There was never going to be a 4th vehicle available from XXXXXXX Coast Ford as only three were ordered.

When I ordered and paid my deposit on the 9th May 2018 I also ordered all the after-market accessories: window tinting, lifestyle pack, plus duco glazing.

I would not have gone to these lengths unless I believed that the Third Ford Mustang Bullitt was mine.

It was 3 months from ordering my vehicle, to being told that it would not be sold to me.

I have rang at least 20 Ford dealerships, only to be told that there were no Ford Mustang Bullitts available in Australia as only a limited number have been imported and all are sold. So it’s not as if I can go down the road and purchase one now, but I could have 3 months ago.

Had I been told back in May that I was on a waiting list for a car that did not exist, obviously I would have sourced the car from another dealership. After recently speaking with other Ford dealerships, I have been told that at that time, I would have been able to purchase the Ford Mustang Bullitt from many Ford dealerships, but that is now too late and I'm left empty handed....

I guess it does happen

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Since when did the 2018 Mustang GT become a limited edition, it's not a Bullitt.

Agree
On my last service at a VIC dealership the showroom floor was full of 2018 mustangs, there looked to be an example in every colour and configuration.
It was like its turned into a Mustang dealership that sold a few other Fords..

They're not around in Camry numbers, but certainly readily available

[asagaai]

So much commentary when there is an absence of factual detail as to what was said between the 2 parties that led to the payment of $1,000.00.

There are 2 sides to every coin and we have not seen both sides.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But I do have training and experience in contract law.

You have (had) a contract. It may not be written, but a verbal agreement also makes a contract.

To have a contract you must have:
* Legal capacity (I assume you are not bankrupt and mentally capable - tick)
* Consideration (you have paid $1000 - tick)
* An offer (I assume that you offered to pay the deposit for something - tick)
* An acceptance (I assume the salesman accepted your offer - tick)

The difficult part here is that none of this contract was written down, especially, in this case the conditions surrounding the Consideration (deposit). It will become a case of he said / she said.

You really need to be sure of what both parties said during the telephone conversation to understand the conditions of the contract.

If you wish to pursue this from a legal perspective, then I suggest you seek legal advice, as they will know best how to deal with this particular case.

Having said that, aside from the legal side of things, from a moral perspective, I think you should be able to get your deposit back. The tell-tale for me is that you have not signed any paperwork aside from the agreement to pay the deposit and were never provided with the actual cost of the item (which would be reasonable to expect when laying down a deposit for an item where the price was unknown at the time of agreement to the deposit).

Further, I'm not sure that chasing this through the credit card company is the right avenue either. That process relates to unauthorised payments. In this case, you authorised the payment (deposit), it's just that the final agreement did not eventuate. Maybe I'm too honest, but I think you'd be having your credit card provider chase something for under false pretenses.

Hope that helps.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by ratter

How would people feel if he had of paid this money because he really wanted this car, but the dealer then sold the car to someone else and then gave him his money back

Impossible. Ford Au notified me of the VIN on FB. Standard procedure on Mustangs pre ordered.

Originally Posted by b0son

'sorry, our allocation fell through' … car quietly sold for more to someone else...

Impossible. Ford Au gave me the VIN. This is standard procedure.

Originally Posted by FG50T

All deposits are refundable unless stipulated when paying the deposit afaik. Walt Kowalski did you put your signature on anything at all?

No. No contract at all. A verbal contract has to have a price. Which wasn’t available 13 months before release.

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Agree
On my last service at a VIC dealership the showroom floor was full of 2018 mustangs, there looked to be an example in every colour and configuration.
It was like its turned into a Mustang dealership that sold a few other Fords..

They're not around in Camry numbers, but certainly readily available

Did you miss the bit where the deposit was debited 13 months before release?

[Walt Kowalski]

PROGRESS.

I just want to thank everyone here who has contributed positively to this thread.

And even to those who called me an idiot more than once. Those posts in particular gave me a chuckle.

It’s amazing what happens when you use the AFF brains trust and then combine it with another phone call to the Salesman.

But on this occasion I told him the conversation was being recorded. It somehow took on a whole new level of understanding for him.

When he said that “he had no authority to issue the credit refund” I asked “Who does?”

“That would be my sales manager but he is away and you will have to ring him in two weeks when he gets back.”

“No. This must be sorted TODAY. I’ve waited long enough”

At this stage I’m glad I have the legal means to record the conversation legally because I can sense him thinking about his next move.

“Sorry. It cannot be done. He’s away”

So I pressed on and asked who would be his boss; would it be xxxxxxxx (The Dealer Principal who I’ve known for 15 years)?

Stunned silence.

No that would be XYZ.

OK. I’ll speak to him. The GM gets on the phone and first question he asks is “What does the contract say?”

“There is no contract.”

Another stunned silence.

I can just picture him with his mouth open.

He immediately apologised and promises to put the money in my account overnight. I then asked for the girl to email me the confirmation immediately and he took my email address.

I will keep the group informed.

Could a mod please link up how I financially contribute to the Forum again please?

Thanks again.