US admits it can no longer fight two wars at once

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Its wrong to assume Israel is provoking arguments and fights in the middle east, in MOST cases, if not all, Israel has defended itself, mainly its the other nations around them who start the fighting and Israel just defends itself. If you where in an Israel's situation, would you blame them for how they act? Everyone around them wants them dead.

My Israeli friend (who served in the IDF from 2000-2004) told me it was America keeping things in check, as at one point they came VERY close to wiping Iran off the map for good as things where flaring up big time between them both politically.

Long story short, I'd rather have the USA on my side, we're not playing a very big role in Afghanistan compared to the US and UK anyways.

Australia thinks its some big player world wide and people brag about how good they think the ADF is, the only "big player" we are is when it comes to minerals, I'd be surprised if we could even defend ourselves if something did happen.

+ edit -deleted. ill reply in time

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Its wrong to assume Israel is provoking arguments and fights in the middle east, in MOST cases, if not all, Israel has defended itself, mainly its the other nations around them who start the fighting and Israel just defends itself. If you where in an Israel's situation, would you blame them for how they act? Everyone around them wants them dead.

My Israeli friend (who served in the IDF from 2000-2004) told me it was America keeping things in check, as at one point they came VERY close to wiping Iran off the map for good as things where flaring up big time between them both politically.

Long story short, I'd rather have the USA on my side, we're not playing a very big role in Afghanistan compared to the US and UK anyways.

Here's a different point of view for you Damo.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Here's a different point of view for you Damo.

And MOST of those casualties seem to be during war periods, which is generally started by the other side.

I don't get Palestinians, they start conflicts, then complain to the world when their people get killed.

If my history knowledge is right, it was the surrounding nations who started it all in 1948, they where the ones who attacked the newly formed Israel.

[burnz]

there's live (fixed webcam)feed comeing out of palistine, (cant remember the http)

that graphicly shows what israil is doing..

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

And MOST of those casualties seem to be during war periods, which is generally started by the other side.

I don't get Palestinians, they start conflicts, then complain to the world when their people get killed.

um "no" you put a foreign power in adelaide and rename it israil..
then expect the rest of oz to be bombed so thay can take more space.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Its wrong to assume Israel is provoking arguments and fights in the middle east, in MOST cases, if not all, Israel has defended itself, mainly its the other nations around them who start the fighting and Israel just defends itself. If you where in an Israel's situation, would you blame them for how they act? Everyone around them wants them dead.

hmm, thing is what seems to happen imo, is the Palestinians will have a group of protesters throwing rocks and the odd molotov, basically nothing any competant security force couldnt deal with quickly and reasonably peacefully, but the idf seems to constantly use overwhelming force, fighting rocks with helicopter gunships and tanks etc.

using special forces to board a ship (arguably illegally, depending on whose side your on) and kill innocent missionaries, simply because they were trying to get aid to the palestinians.

i wonder why their neighbors hate them so... they a bully nation, and until theres a proper flare up, and someones nation is reduced to ashes they will always be a bully nation.
and we're talking nations with short fuses and nukes. its not going to end well.

hell, Israeli spys were caught in nz... about as far as you can get from israel...

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

And MOST of those casualties seem to be during war periods, which is generally started by the other side.

I don't get Palestinians, they start conflicts, then complain to the world when their people get killed.

If my history knowledge is right, it was the surrounding nations who started it all in 1948, they where the ones who attacked the newly formed Israel.

Actually it isnt.... Isreal decided it wanted more land then what the British gave them.... and started a war agaisnt its neighbours.

[ltd_on20s]

Its wrong to assume Israel is provoking arguments and fights in the middle east, in MOST cases, if not all, Israel has defended itself, mainly its the other nations around them who start the fighting and Israel just defends itself. If you where in an Israel's situation, would you blame them for how they act? Everyone around them wants them dead.

this mentality is the exact reason why no one is able to crack israeli stubborness. you shift al the blame to one side, without taking in any historical perspective from 1920 onwards.

in 1981 israel attacked iraq, iraq had started nothing with israel.
in 2007 israel attacks a plant in syria.

and there are hundreds of other examples you could choose from

"My Israeli friend (who served in the IDF from 2000-2004) told me it was America keeping things in check, as at one point they came VERY close to wiping Iran off the map for good as things where flaring up big time between them both politically."

is he Australian? did you know over 400 Australians serve in the IDF? no one bats an eyelid. wonder what the hullaballo would be if Australians served with Hamas, which is the legitimate elected government of the Palestinians.

and, how is israel going to "wipe out" a nation of 75 million people? who have an indigenous arms manufacturing? who have proven were able to stop iraq who had chemical weapons, and every tech thrown at them? who have the ability to project their power OUTSIDE of iran?


"Australia thinks its some big player world wide and people brag about how good they think the ADF is, the only "big player" we are is when it comes to minerals, I'd be surprised if we could even defend ourselves if something did happen."

guerrilla warfare is a very effective tactic. the taliban have proven that.

"I'd rather send our troops to some war for the USA's benefit if that means they send us some help WHEN/IF we really need it."

the world has been sending it's kids to die for the benefit of the US for 60 years since ww2. it's time to say no.

but lets get back to the US

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by burnz

um "no" you put a foreign power in adelaide and rename it israil..
then expect the rest of oz to be bombed so thay can take more space.

You can blame the British and the United Nations for that.

[ltd_on20s]

the US is bankrupt.

it's debt is over 100% of GDP.

100%.

you cannot spend that kind of cash empire building. the brits found that out the hard way.

even if it cut 25% of its military spending it still would be spending more then 4 x the nearest rival.

if they go to war with iran, prepare to pay 5$ + a litre for fuel, because they will, and have the capacity to shut down 25% of the worlds oil supply.

not one country's oil supply. the world.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

the US is bankrupt.

it's debt is over 100% of GDP.

100%.

you cannot spend that kind of cash empire building. the brits found that out the hard way.

even if it cut 25% of its military spending it still would be spending more then 4 x the nearest rival.

if they go to war with iran, prepare to pay 5$ + a litre for fuel, because they will, and have the capacity to shut down 25% of the worlds oil supply.

not one country's oil supply. the world.

why does libya ring in my ear's all the time?

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

the US is bankrupt.

it's debt is over 100% of GDP.

100%.

you cannot spend that kind of cash empire building. the brits found that out the hard way.

even if it cut 25% of its military spending it still would be spending more then 4 x the nearest rival.

if they go to war with iran, prepare to pay 5$ + a litre for fuel, because they will, and have the capacity to shut down 25% of the worlds oil supply.

not one country's oil supply. the world.

i agree with most of that, bar the $5 a litre... scaremongering doesnt help.

they can only stop 25%, that means 75% comes through just the same, and the other oil producing nations have already said they can step up production to cover it, the only cost increases 'should' be from increased shipping costs if the the iranians shut down the strait.

imo, this is the closest we have ever been to nuclear warfare since the cuban missile crisis. (hmm, what did i just say about scaremongering )

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

in 1981 israel attacked iraq, iraq had started nothing with israel.

1948 to 1949, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Pakistan all contributed in an attack against Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel

Have a look at the combatant list, Israel is looking a bit outnumbered there, except in 1956 and 1982.

is he Australian? did you know over 400 Australians serve in the IDF? no one bats an eyelid. wonder what the hullaballo would be if Australians served with Hamas, which is the legitimate elected government of the Palestinians.

No, he's a recent immigrant to Australia, born in Israel.

and, how is israel going to "wipe out" a nation of 75 million people? who have an indigenous arms manufacturing? who have proven were able to stop iraq who had chemical weapons, and every tech thrown at them? who have the ability to project their power OUTSIDE of iran?

Probably with their nuclear arsenal they have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...ss_destruction

I know Wikipedia isn't the most credible source out there, but thats what my friend was saying, that they do have them.

guerrilla warfare is a very effective tactic. the taliban have proven that.

The majority ended up getting driven out/killed, so it hasn't worked too well.

the world has been sending it's kids to die for the benefit of the US for 60 years since ww2. it's time to say no.

So what, you don't join the army and not expect to get sent to a war zone, my cousin is in the army, he knows damn well the consequences.

but lets get back to the US

Agreed

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by burnz

why does libya ring in my ear's all the time?

libya was a third world country with all it's cash being pumped into the gaddafi family bank account. it had no military infastucture. at most it had a semi military internal police force.

gaddafi also gave up all his weapons.

a little difference for you.

-libya does not sit on the smallest point of the strait of hormuz. the smallest point is about 55 klm wide.

- iran is at the forefront of military speedboat technology. and it has hundreds of them. all super quick,m all moving in excess of 60 knots, which is 110 klm. on water.

http://newwars.wordpress.com/2010/04...oat-maneuvers/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...speedboat.html

- iran has missiles that can reach the tip of europe. libya didnt.

-iran has proxy powers it can call on in lebanon, iran, iraq, Saudi(shi'ite north), israel, jordan.

-it has the finances to back a prolonged guerrilla war in mulitple countries.

- and the iranians are very patriotic. they lost over a million men fighting iraq. you think they will blink?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

So what, you don't join the army and not expect to get sent to a war zone, my cousin is in the army, he knows damn well the consequeces

i think he was aiming at conscription..

[ltd_on20s]

damo, i'm only going to answer a couple of you points, as it would take too long to address all of them.


"and, how is israel going to "wipe out" a nation of 75 million people? who have an indigenous arms manufacturing? who have proven were able to stop iraq who had chemical weapons, and every tech thrown at them? who have the ability to project their power OUTSIDE of iran?"

Probably with their nuclear arsenal they have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...ss_destruction

I know Wikipedia isn't the most credible source out there, but thats what my friend was saying, that they do have them.


yes they have nukes, but what do you think will happen to israel politically and militarily world wide if they use them? israel is'nt the US and it's not ww2. are you suggesting that without nukes israel could not win a prolonged war against iran without them?

+ plus you forget the trump cards. china and russia. how would they react to a country getting whacked by israel when iran gives them cheap oil?

Quote:
guerrilla warfare is a very effective tactic. the taliban have proven that.

The majority ended up getting driven out/killed, so it hasn't worked too well.

the US has been there for 10 years trying to knock them off. it's now been reported that the US is trying to sit down and negotiate an end to hostiliies.

with the taliban. to me that looks like the Gurellia tactics worked and forced the worlds biggest superpower to negotiate.

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

Quote:
guerrilla warfare is a very effective tactic. the taliban have proven that.

the US has been there for 10 years trying to knock them off. it's now been reported that the US is trying to sit down and negotiate an end to hostiliies.

with the taliban. to me that looks like the Gurellia tactics worked and forced the worlds biggest superpower to negotiate.

Agreed they worked extremely well, just as they did during the Vietnam conflict.
The US has again failed to learn from past mistakes.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

i agree with most of that, bar the $5 a litre... scaremongering doesnt help.

they can only stop 25%, that means 75% comes through just the same, and the other oil producing nations have already said they can step up production to cover it, the only cost increases 'should' be from increased shipping costs if the the iranians shut down the strait.

imo, this is the closest we have ever been to nuclear warfare since the cuban missile crisis. (hmm, what did i just say about scaremongering )

how long do you think can they cover a 25% reduction in world oil? which is used for basically every item manufactured?

how long do you think it will be before iran then attacks Saudi plants? iraqi plants?....

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

Quote:
guerrilla warfare is a very effective tactic. the taliban have proven that.

The majority ended up getting driven out/killed, so it hasn't worked too well.

the US has been there for 10 years trying to knock them off. it's now been reported that the US is trying to sit down and negotiate an end to hostiliies.

with the taliban. to me that looks like the Gurellia tactics worked and forced the worlds biggest superpower to negotiate.

In much the same way the USA handled Vietnam and Korea... yet the lessons were never learnt. For when you invade someone, you expect them to all lay down and surrender?
The French managed to wage a good gurellia war in WW2 against the Nazis...
Dont underestimate the locals..

[ltd_on20s]

btw, when the gulf war eventuated, oil prices had doubled.

in libya, prices when from $100, to $120.

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/oil...hronology.html

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

My question was posed to deco28 who says that other countries have been agressive to Australia, as opposed to the USA which has been "nice" to us.

Im asking WHO has been agressive towards us.... and when?
Japan? WW2?

Your comment that we simply went to war because the US protects us is very... ummm....far from the truth.

I see your point. But perhaps the whole reason Australia hasn't faced direct aggression is because of our Alliance with the USA.
It's probably no different to why Taiwan is still an independent democratic nation that is not controlled by China, simply because of Taiwan's ties with the USA and the USA publicly stating it will come to Taiwan's aid if China tries anything. And it works both ways because the USA gets something out of it too, that's what an Alliance is all about, its never done because a Nation feels like being friendly, it's done to suit it's interests, Australia & the USA are not Allies because our governments one day felt like being friendly to each other just for the sake of it, there is a huge benefit to both nations at stake.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

And MOST of those casualties seem to be during war periods, which is generally started by the other side.

I don't get Palestinians, they start conflicts, then complain to the world when their people get killed.

If my history knowledge is right, it was the surrounding nations who started it all in 1948, they where the ones who attacked the newly formed Israel.

"Generally started by the other side,"?

So, in 1948 when Israel became "legal", they displaced hundreds of thousands indigenous inhabitants, and millions since. How are they any better than Hitler? Are they a different, superior breed that it is okay for them to kick people out of their homes?


Damo, if someone came into your house and demanded that you leave, you would leave, although the papers say you own the house.

If you were a little tougher you might put up a fight and say "hold on a minute buddy, this is my house, you're mistaken, these are my papers to prove it".

They would turn around and tell you "No, actually, this land is all ours now, you papers mean nothing".

You don't leave because you believe what they're doing is unjust, so they threaten to level your house with you in it.

This is exactly WHY "the other side keep starting it", Damo.

Some of them were kicked out, some of them were killed in their homes before their homes were leveled. Read that link if you need proof.

FYI, even the indigenous Jews of Palestine, the real Semites, are also fighting WITH the Arabs, against the so called state of israel and it's genocide.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

I see your point. But perhaps the whole reason Australia hasn't faced direct aggression is because of our Alliance with the USA.
It's probably no different to why Taiwan is still an independent democratic nation that is not controlled by China, simply because of Taiwan's ties with the USA and the USA publicly stating it will come to Taiwan's aid if China tries anything. And it works both ways because the USA gets something out of it too, that's what an Alliance is all about, its never done because a Nation feels like being friendly, it's done to suit it's interests, Australia & the USA are not Allies because our governments one day felt like being friendly to each other just for the sake of it, there is a huge benefit to both nations at stake.

fair enough, so.....

when will australia be allowed to have a base in the US and stockpile cluster munitions?

does taiwan have a base in the US?

btw, china could take Taiwan back in about 4 days if it wanted to. all war games theories every played out have china taking tawain back, no matter what what defences were deployed.

it's just not in china's interest to have a costly war against the US, because it's watching the US go bankrupt anyway.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by burnz

um "no" you put a foreign power in adelaide and rename it israil..

Using your logic the Australian Aboriginals have just as much a right to launch attacks on Australians (of European decent). Heck if your a Pictish or Cetlic descendant you have every right to take up arms against the British people of Roman, Anglo Saxon, Viking & Norman descent because they were all invaders. See how silly that logic is. Jerusalem and the surrounding lands have been through countless rulers & kingdoms. The fact remains, Israel was created, it exists, it has proven it can defend itself (with outside help of course), and will launch strikes abroad if it needs to, it's not going anywhere, it's a recognised state (obviously not by every nation) the only way for Israel to be removed is with military force, Israel is not stupid and knows this and needs the capabilities to be able to defend its territory and people, there has always been that "rumour" of Israel having nuclear arms capabilities, this would not be surprising.

Originally Posted by burnz

then expect the rest of oz to be bombed so thay can take more space

The extra "space" that Israel occupies (if what you are referring to is the land occupied after the Arab conflicts) was acquired after wars with the Arab states, this is strategic territory, from a military point of view I don't blame the Israelis for "hanging on" to this territory, after all the Israelis were the victors. When you are literally surrounded by enemies you need all options open in the event of an attack.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Using your logic the Australian Aboriginals have just as much a right to launch attacks on Australians (of European decent). Heck if your a Pictish or Cetlic descendant you have every right to take up arms against the British people of Roman, Anglo Saxon, Viking & Norman descent because they were all invaders. See how silly that logic is. Jerusalem and the surrounding lands have been through countless rulers & kingdoms. The fact remains, Israel was created, it exists, it has proven it can defend itself (with outside help of course), and will launch strikes abroad if it needs to, it's not going anywhere, it's a recognised state (obviously not by every nation) the only way for Israel to be removed is with military force, Israel is not stupid and knows this and needs the capabilities to be able to defend its territory and people, there has always been that "rumour" of Israel having nuclear arms capabilities, this would not be surprising.


The extra "space" that Israel occupies (if what you are referring to is the land occupied after the Arab conflicts) was acquired after wars with the Arab states, this is strategic territory, from a military point of view I don't blame the Israelis for "hanging on" to this territory, after all the Israelis were the victors. When you are literally surrounded by enemies you need all options open in the event of an attack.

so when Israel is defeated one day, looking through the history of kingdoms and empires prism, you won't complain?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Deco28

I don't know about you, but i want America to have an unbelievably large defense force. At least they are nice to Australia unlike other countries..

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

er um... and who has invaded us recently or attacked us????

I believe your question is answered by the result of the statement above it...

During the riots in Jakarta some years ago, the Indonesian army "mobilised a division of it's army to patrol the streets around the country".
That single division was larger than our entire military forces combined..

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

hmm, thing is what seems to happen imo, is the Palestinians will have a group of protesters throwing rocks and the odd molotov, basically nothing any competant security force couldnt deal with quickly and reasonably peacefully, but the idf seems to constantly use overwhelming force, fighting rocks with helicopter gunships and tanks etc.

using special forces to board a ship (arguably illegally, depending on whose side your on) and kill innocent missionaries, simply because they were trying to get aid to the palestinians.

i wonder why their neighbors hate them so... they a bully nation, and until theres a proper flare up, and someones nation is reduced to ashes they will always be a bully nation.
and we're talking nations with short fuses and nukes. its not going to end well.

hell, Israeli spys were caught in nz... about as far as you can get from israel...

That is true what you say, they can use excessive force and that's just what we see, there could be a lot worse happen that doesn't get to the media.
You also need to remember they had a lot of suicide bombers over there, before September 11 not many people would have known or cared about suicide bombers, but these were happening very frequently in Israel and the Qassam rockets fired against Israel caused some grief.

I'm curious though, in what way does Israel bully Iran? I know you said neighbours and Iran is not a direct neighbour to Israel but you mentioned nukes so I assume your speaking of Iran?

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

That is true what you say, they can use excessive force and that's just what we see, there could be a lot worse happen that doesn't get to the media.
You also need to remember they had a lot of suicide bombers over there, before September 11 not many people would have known or cared about suicide bombers, but these were happening very frequently in Israel and the Qassam rockets fired against Israel caused some grief.

I'm curious though, in what way does Israel bully Iran? I know you said neighbours and Iran is not a direct neighbour to Israel but you mentioned nukes so I assume your speaking of Iran?

"You also need to remember they had a lot of suicide bombers over there, before September 11 not many people would have known or cared about suicide bombers, but these were happening very frequently in Israel"

this is a difficult one. in no way do i condone suicide bombers, BUT, if you had someone smacking you down with tanks, apache's phosphorus, indefinite detention, smashing through your wall in the dead of the night, watching your pregnant mum die at a checkpoint because they refused to let her through for medical care, it may push you to do strange things.

"Qassam rockets fired against Israel caused some grief."

most of the ceasefires have been broken by israel. its a known fact.



"I'm curious though, in what way does Israel bully Iran? I know you said neighbours and Iran is not a direct neighbour to Israel but you mentioned nukes so I assume your speaking of Iran?"

israel cannot win a conventional war against iran. it's only trump card is nukes.

if iran gets nukes it changes the balance of power in the region. no more can Israel ride over the ME as it sees fit. iran then becomes, within 10 years of acquiring a nuke, becomes the sole superpower of the ME. it becomes the china of the ME.

everyone keeps saying iran wants to wipe israel out, which is utter garbage seeing it cant do t, with or without a nuke, because the US will step in and wipe out 75 million people. yet no one talks about israeli sabre rattling and saying "no option is off the table " implying they will use nukes.

iran has signed the NPT - israel hasn't
iran has allowed inspectors in -israel has'nt
iran has it's own uranium - which scares the crap out of israel and the US
israel tried to sell nuclear material to south africa - iran didnt.

there is one way out for israel, for its survival. go back to 48, give back the land earmarked for the Palestinians, let them have east jerusalem as it's capital and define your borders. without doing that. it will be in perpetual war for the rest of it's existence.

but once you ask them that, it will devolve into a religious argument about why they won't do it. and that path is far more dangerous then the one we take right now.

and if it continues on this path, israel, and it's wars in the ME will break the US.

[WMD351]

I'm curious, in what way does the "Israel's right / no the Arab countries are right" argument have any relevance to the topic of the American economy and it's military spending?
I wonder where this thread will go...

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Actually it isnt.... Isreal decided it wanted more land then what the British gave them.... and started a war agaisnt its neighbours.

From what I believe the territories that the Jews captured had been already allocated to them by the UN, the reason the Jews did this (what would seem strange to us because the land had already been allocated to them) was because they were already fighting small conflicts with the Arabs over land, the Arab League had also voted against a resolution for the creation of Israel, nations from the Arab League moved their armies into the land allocated by the UN to them.
Really the US and Britain were weak for not putting more effort in to resolve the issue.