Wheels August 2009

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Ball is in Ford's court, my hat off to Holden for at least doing something.

Man am i getting sick of this beauty!!! These days its the default position for the holden apologists. Yes it is true Holden is often more daring RE product planning. They bring out the big stuff at motorshows and are always trying 'new things', but how much of this is really there work and how much of it actually works anyway.

This is like the debate over the VE styling...i had a holden fanboy tell me that because it was 'out there' and 'agressive' with its wheelarches it was ok that on base form it looked ridiculous!!!! Lots of people on here bag Ford for not having a go, and think that Holden is unfairly treated because its a Ford forum. I think they get of lightly to be honest. If Ford had such a woeful track record of new models/technology so dismally failing we would never hear end of it.

In the last 5 years Holden has released a V6 that is far from competitive, stuck with a 4sp auto drivetrain that is surely the worst on the planet and give us AFM...which is as ineffective as it is marketable. And this is just on the local commodore. Look at other models and it gets worse....adventura was a massive flop, W427 though ballsy never got going and those AWD HSV coupes were really worth the effort...... Then of course there is the daewoo debacle...

But its all rosey at Holden land because they are 'having a go'. This is serious business, having a go isn't enough. Its not like hitting off the tee in golf, getting near the green isn't enough. It may be a long bow to pull but is it any wonder the mob behind these 'adventurous' and ultimately unsuccessfull projects just came out of the biggest bankruptcy in automotive history? I think not!!!!

[mcnews]

The best thing about the Holden V6 is it makes Ford's in-line six feel light years ahead. Seriously, the four-litre six in the Falcon is just magnificent as a base engine. Nice long stroke and decent size means plenty of mumbo down low and into the mid-range which is what you need day to day.

[GK]

Originally Posted by Hubble80

My wife has a VZ SVZ which is the 3.6L, but not the High Output version (SV6). I have owned a swag of V6 Commodores in my time and believe the Alloytec motor is the worst of them. They make a heap of noise but no performance!!! Holden like to up the power ratings on the V6's however torque and economy normally suffer. We are lucky to get under 11L/100kms out of the wifes SVZ!!! ... Hence why I am on Ford Forum. The SVZ will probably be my last Commodore!

Another one soon to be saved from the Dark Side! LOL!

At least he's being honest.

GK

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Why would it be a mistake? Ford are wanting to show the Falcon is fuel efficient yet powerful enough to still kick some but. I didn't state Ford should user smaller engines, generally manufacturers have been able to better utilise smaller engines with DI, more efficient than larger displaced engines, just have a look at what VW have done with the Golf. Just think of what the I6 would be like with DI.

Realistically there is pretty much stuff all chance of Ford spending any $$ on weight saving without taking something out and realistically there isn't much more than can take away without spending on exotic materials. Utilising DI and the six speed auto will increase the fuel economy from the current cars, that's what the general public want. The turbo Falcons can also have DI for the performance enthusiasts.

What I said in my previous post has absolutely nothing to do with performance per say, it is all about showing advancements for better efficiencies, so the Holden might be slower (say 0.5 sec to the 100km, because that's what families look for in a car) but if it can do the job using say 1l/100km on the average better than the Falcon then of course people are going to look at it.

Ford have the opportunity to show case the Falcon with the next update or even model and I hope they do it. My bet is they'll ride on the success of the FG for a new more years. If they don't want to spend the $$ anymore on the I6 what they could do is introduce the DI Duratec V6 (TT as well) for higher spec cars and keep the I6 for the lower spec, so as to introduce the buying public to the new engine while at the same time phase out the I6.

Ball is in Ford's court, my hat off to Holden for at least doing something.

I meant why would it be a mistake if they didn't drop the I6 for the V6. I should have been specific. D.I. has benefits, but also has it's shortfalls. The current I6 is not far from Euro 4. In fact, think beyond Euro 4 and it's not hard for Ford to make it comply. The tests have been done, "the pens have been lifted and the pages have dried". In other words, it's "future proof"!! And, not much dollars will need to be spent for this.

My second remark about the smaller capacity was directed at Holden's decision to further reduce the capacity to 3L, nothing to do with Ford's I6. The 3L will need more work to do to shift the same weight as it's 305Nm torque peaks at ~5200rpm, which is ridiculous for a "family car". Where does the I6 make it's peak torque of 408Nm? 2000rpm lower.

I think we're on the same page. The problem isn't the I6, rather it's the lack of edumecation on how good this I6 is. If Ford can entrench the facts in the heads of people, who by the look of it can't look past the ever-so-Australian Holden Commodore which goes-better and is tough-like-Aussies, then maybe, just maybe, people will sit up and take notice.

[Bossxr8]

Things are happening with the I6, work is being done, just don't know what exactly. I think we'll have some big news within the next year or 2 regarding the I6.

[GTP-03]

People get carried away with kw figures, when really torque is what gives performance off the line, I dont think id be swayed to buy a new Holden, I know how good the Ford offering is and how good weve got it with a torquey inline smooth 4 litre. Long live the 4 litre I6!

[Ego T]

Originally Posted by Hubble80

My wife has a VZ SVZ which is the 3.6L, but not the High Output version (SV6). I have owned a swag of V6 Commodores in my time and believe the Alloytec motor is the worst of them. They make a heap of noise but no performance!!! Holden like to up the power ratings on the V6's however torque and economy normally suffer. We are lucky to get under 11L/100kms out of the wifes SVZ!!! ... Hence why I am on Ford Forum. The SVZ will probably be my last Commodore!

I have just gotten out of my VZ and into the FG. Driving the commodore for 4 years was truly horrible but I was stuck with it so had to put up with it. The fuel economy averaged at 13.5l/100k's which for the performance (or lack of...) was pathetic. The 4 sp auto is absolutely appalling and got much worse with age. With 90,000 k's on it there is over $2000 worth of repairs needed including timing cover oil leak and a leaking engine mount! Basically after 4 years it is stuffed.

Now I'm in a falcon for the first time in 10 years. I hope it is a better experience.

[Walt Kowalski]

I have said it in other threads and I will say it again

Wheels is R U B B I S H

Has been since Phil Scott left

Make that R U B B I S H

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Things are happening with the I6, work is being done, just don't know what exactly. I think we'll have some big news within the next year or 2 regarding the I6.

When Bossxr8 says "big", he means big! Let's hope they pull it off.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

When Bossxr8 says "big", he means big! Let's hope they pull it off.

They're adding another 2 cylinders..?! :hihi:

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They're adding another 2 cylinders..?! :hihi:

Never ever seen a straight eight before. it:

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Never ever seen a straight eight before. it:

actually i have!!

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They're adding another 2 cylinders..?! :hihi:

Funny chap that 4vman. Ah...no, i dont' think they mean an extra two cylinders. Fact is that something is afoot RE the I6...and i mean long term. It not yet clear what that is, but people out there assuming the Duratec series (35/37) are the only 6 pot engines in the Ford world might not be so correct. If the rumours are correct (RE the involvement of higher ups from NA) the I6 may have a role to play longer term. Certainly RE emissions i think it will have no issue carrying on for some time...as for DI? Well given the competence of the engine in its current form they have a few more years to consider that one. If it did get DI, then by god would it pump out some torque lol!

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

actually i have!!

Wouldn't doubt it. Back in the 1950s yeah? :hihi:

[9triton]

straight 8's - all the rage in the 1930's:

packard:

http://www.engineworx.com.au/images/Straight82_000.JPG

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 9triton

straight 8's - all the rage in the 1930's:

packard:

http://www.engineworx.com.au/images/Straight82_000.JPG

So, how old are you insinuating 4Vman is?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Wouldn't doubt it. Back in the 1950s yeah? :hihi:

LOL, yeah an old fella from on here told me about one he owned.. think his name started with W...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Things are happening with the I6, work is being done, just don't know what exactly. I think we'll have some big news within the next year or 2 regarding the I6.

There should be a high level overview at the end of the month at least.

From what I've heard and from what your saying things are looking good.

[Dave R]

The Barra 195 unit is fine right now, any significant progress made with the engine in the future will just be a bonus to an already excellent unit.

We've heard big things about Alloytech in the past (prior to its release) and we're hearing them again. It turned out to be a disappointment the first time and I'm guessing this DI variant won't live up to the hype either. It may be a decent engine, but "smoke the falcon" it will not. Wouldn't be surprised if Holden detune it aswell for the sake of economy.

[GTENVY]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The real scary thing is in a couple of years my XR8 will be outpowered by the base family hack :

HA HA, mine already is

[merlin]

So they are putting these in there top line sporty V6 cars? Big woop the Falcon sports 6 cyl makes 270kw. Yep we should be real worried...

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I meant why would it be a mistake if they didn't drop the I6 for the V6. I should have been specific. D.I. has benefits, but also has it's shortfalls. The current I6 is not far from Euro 4. In fact, think beyond Euro 4 and it's not hard for Ford to make it comply. The tests have been done, "the pens have been lifted and the pages have dried". In other words, it's "future proof"!! And, not much dollars will need to be spent for this.

I don't mean they should drop the I6, my stand was they should introduce DI to the I6, it is a proven technology and can only benefit the I6 further for efficiency. I don't see what the problem is (this isn't directed at you, more the general users here) with implementing it, why not make the I6 even better?

My second remark about the smaller capacity was directed at Holden's decision to further reduce the capacity to 3L, nothing to do with Ford's I6. The 3L will need more work to do to shift the same weight as it's 305Nm torque peaks at ~5200rpm, which is ridiculous for a "family car". Where does the I6 make it's peak torque of 408Nm? 2000rpm lower.

I was just highlighting the fact with the DI technology there is the option to reduce the engine capacity (if required) to get the same amount of power/torque from the larger engine with better economy. We're talking family hacks here NOT performance cars (again directed at you), saying that though DI on the turbo I6 mmmmmm nice.

I think we're on the same page. The problem isn't the I6, rather it's the lack of edumecation on how good this I6 is. If Ford can entrench the facts in the heads of people, who by the look of it can't look past the ever-so-Australian Holden Commodore which goes-better and is tough-like-Aussies, then maybe, just maybe, people will sit up and take notice.

I wasn't having a go at the I6 at all, having a go at some of the people here and Ford if they decide not to implement this kind of efficient technology onto the I6. They keep on trying to state how efficient it is and how good the economy is, well this would be a bigger step towards that and show the public how much better the car is.

The car industry is very competitive, so Ford really need to showcase their cars better, implement these kind of technologies and tell the world about it.

[flappist]

You guys do realise that if the I6 is bumped up another 6kw it will join the "high powered 6 cylinder" list and P platers will be banned from driving ALL new falcons.

Not a huge problem today but 10-15 years from now with most falcons being banned to new drivers the ford fan club might get a bit thin.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

let's DI the I6 and blow 'em all away.

Personally I'd like to see them implement an electric water pump and electro-hydraulic power steering to reduce the running load on the engine and bring baseline fuel consumption down a bit more. Would probably help in increasing the ponies a little bit too without those two accessory drives running off the motor. But only a small amount.

But DI = HUGE $$$ investment. Would FoA have, or be given, the cash to make the I6 Direct Injection? DI is up there with camless valvetrain tech for the 'ultimate' I6 but give the cash situation with Broady right now I'm doubtful...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by flappist

You guys do realise that if the I6 is bumped up another 6kw it will join the "high powered 6 cylinder" list and P platers will be banned from driving ALL new falcons.

Not a huge problem today but 10-15 years from now with most falcons being banned to new drivers the ford fan club might get a bit thin.

Precisely, and the very reason that the hypo DI 6 won't make it into the non sporty models.
On the news of the discontinuation of the Alloytech, I better let my mate the boat-builder know, that he is going to have to find another source for anchors.

[Joe5619]

Can I add me 2 cents worth about V6 vs. I6? I'll start be saying that I know sweat F all about engines & what makes one good/ better than the next. But, I believe (based on pure perception) that a V6 is far more advanced & uses newer technology than the falcon's dated I6. Weather this is right or wrong I have no idea. If the I6 is as good as most on here say, it is Ford's own fault for not getting the message out about how good the current Falcon engine is. Again, I'll state I know sweat F all about the right facts about these 2 types of engines. My only piece of advice to Ford would be, if they do continue with the I6, the general public needs to be made aware of how good this engine is & the technology/ development that Ford Australia has put into it.

[mcnews]

You are wrong. Only advantage a V6 has is packaging dimensions. people just see v and think whoopee it is a miniature V8 so it must be good....

Popular with makers of automotive whitegoods due to the ability of a V6 to be mounted transversely in front wheel drive turdboxes.

A V6 is inherently chronically unbalanced, just drive a Commodore to see that in practice.

An in-line six is perfectly balanced due to its layout.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Can I add me 2 cents worth about V6 vs. I6? I'll start be saying that I know sweat F all about engines & what makes one good/ better than the next. But, I believe (based on pure perception) that a V6 is far more advanced & uses newer technology than the falcon's dated I6. Weather this is right or wrong I have no idea. If the I6 is as good as most on here say, it is Ford's own fault for not getting the message out about how good the current Falcon engine is. Again, I'll state I know sweat F all about the right facts about these 2 types of engines. My only piece of advice to Ford would be, if they do continue with the I6, the general public needs to be made aware of how good this engine is & the technology/ development that Ford Australia has put into it.

McNews is spot on here, and just ask yourself what the best engines in the world has consisted of; straight 6's like BMW's 3.3 litre. For big power and big torque a straight 6 is the only way to go, due to the blocks torsional capabilities. A V6 is harder to cool, has lower tensile strength and is hard to get 100% true. Furthermore, it requires twice the camshafts and succumbs to directional and frictional losses more than a straight 6. They are also more expensive to service and it is not uncommon for there to be a hot bank and a cold bank in a V6. Oil starvation is also more common in a V6 than a straight 6 as time wears on. Even all the big diesels in trucks are straight 6's, again for their torque.

[Carby]

Yes all things being equal a straight six is inherently superior to a V6 - however thats not to say that V6's are useless - they do have superior packaging and weight advantages and there are some excellent V6's about eg the 245 kw 370Z motor and a plethora of Nissan Maxima V6's. The Toyota 200kw mill is also very smooth and useful.

Anyway we seem to be getting off topic here a bit, if the new Holden DI V6 3.6 litre does have 225KW thats about 15 % more than the Ford I6 and it will no doubt be a formidable competitor in the XR6 /SV6 , Calais/G6 comparos that will no doubt follow. The Holden may end up being a good engine but I bet the ZF 6 speed Transmission bests the (rumoured) 6 speed Holden Transmission. :

[FalconXV]

I want : LPG Hybrid Falcon with tiny screaming six ( 2L). I guess I'll have to make my own using mk1 prius bits and some absolute bitsa of an engine...
On topic though, It's a shame Territory isn't getting the 3.0L variant of this diesel but does anybody have an estimation based on Disco3's figures what performance and economy will be?