Stop Start Technology

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Sometimes I honestly think it's technology for technologies sake...just to look trendy.

When we got the new model Prados at work a few years back, we all noticed one interesting thing. The "old" Prado had a traditional physical lever on the floor to move from high range to low range 4x4. It was a mechanical connection to the box, wobbling slightly as the car idled. Our Triton has the same thing by the way.
Then the "new" Prado came out, and it had a knob to turn to do the same job...and we all immediately started considering what was involved.
On one vehicle you had a simple lever. On the newer one there was a dial...with a complex multi-function switch unit behind it...with circuitry behind that...with meters of wiring...with a computer somewhere controlling it...with servo motors on the gearbox...with mechanisms to select low or high range from that servo...

So many more levels of things that can possibly go wrong, and all for no real good reason...there wasn't any more interior space, there was just one less gear lever.


Stop start is a toss...nothing more. You would have to be doing a lot of stop start driving to see even the tiniest benefit...you'd probably get a better economy increase by just making sure your tyres are inflated correctly and your car is serviced properly...

Agreed, whats one more lever when it replaces circuitry? Things can go wrong!



But seriously I'm not a fan of stop start tech either. There has to be a negative effect on the battery and starter motor.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Agreed, whats one more lever when it replaces circuitry? Things can go wrong!

image

But seriously I'm not a fan of stop start tech either. There has to be a negative effect on the battery and starter motor.

I believe the more modern ones don't use either the starter motor or battery. a metered amount of fuel injected into the right hot cylinder and corresponding spark will do it.
Modern engine management at its finest.

JP

[Brazen]

Love the stop start systems, why have engines chugging away at lights for no reason.

Sure it only saves around 3- 4% of fuel a year, but added up to all cars it makes a massive difference to the amount of oil we need to import and the air quality in our cities.

Also no engine running while stopped means no noise and vibration is the kind of refinement of a Rolls Royce.

I believe most don't use the starter motor, they stop the crank in the right position so that all it need is a squirt of fuel and a spark to get going again.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I believe most don't use the starter motor, they stop the crank in the right position so that all it need is a squirt of fuel and a spark to get going again.

Sounds like more sensors and components to fail down the track causing additional problems. Cars are becoming more of a disposable commodity once warranty expires.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Sounds like more sensors and components to fail down the track causing additional problems. Cars are becoming more of a disposable commodity once warranty expires.

Sensors are already there being used to run the engine, they add code to the ecu and it does the rest.
Just the way manufacturers want it. Imagine if they built the better light bulb! lasted forever! who would by another one?

JP

[Brazen]

I have a different take on all this tech, I'm a car nut, I grew up loving cars. I remember seeing my first car with electric windows when my friends dad arrived at boarding school in a new Ford LTD.

Love all the advances. We are probably going to be alive for only 7 or 8 decades. I couldnt care less if all these advances change the life of a car from 350,000km to 300,000km.

It'd be so boring if they stood still. I want cars to continue to advance. It's great fun.

[Big_Daz]

Both the cars I am looking at for a daily at the moment have this technology (MY15 Mazda 6 Touring and MY15 Mazda 3 Astina XD Manual). After driving both today with the stop start tech I didn't find it an issue at all... It never held me up at the light starting up again and as said above, in the Astina Manual if I didn't want it to engage I kept the clutch in... Or pressed the simple button on start up...

[jpblue1000]

Just been out in the rain in the Falcon ute. it now has start stop technology. For some reason when I pull up at lights or come to a halt it stops! then I turn the key and it restarts. How modern and flash. I bet my starter and battery will suffer If I don't fix it. thanks ford!.

JP

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Just been out in the rain in the Falcon ute. it now has start stop technology. For some reason when I pull up at lights or come to a halt it stops! then I turn the key and it restarts. How modern and flash. I bet my starter and battery will suffer If I don't fix it. thanks ford!.

JP

It's older than that...we had a 1957 Morris Minor that had the same amazing technology which only seemed to activate on rainy days.

Of course it had another name..."Lucas Electrics"...

[tex]

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Was riding in a Mercedes C Class last week.....

Seriously if the Germans cant make this thing seemless then... who can?

they can.

it is seemless in our Audi, you have to be paying close attention to even notice it restart and go. but then again, the engine makes 650nm from 1200 rpm so its not like it is gutless from idle. its so seemless that i reckon it would make under a second difference to 100 from standstill. Quite remarkable really.

I hate it though, and after 3 months, still forget to turn it off before the first intersection. Thats annoying.

[Peterwl]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Love the stop start systems, why have engines chugging away at lights for no reason.

Sure it only saves around 3- 4% of fuel a year, but added up to all cars it makes a massive difference to the amount of oil we need to import and the air quality in our cities.

Also no engine running while stopped means no noise and vibration is the kind of refinement of a Rolls Royce.

I believe most don't use the starter motor, they stop the crank in the right position so that all it need is a squirt of fuel and a spark to get going again.

Even if it done in modern cars as you suggest, what happens in a big traffic jam and it stops for 15 minutes, the cylinder may not be so hot !

Also, if its all done in ECU firmware, I would not like to overtaking a truck somewhere doing 3000 rpm, the ECU has a "Hiccup" and stops the engine or tries to park the crank.

Inner city small car use, yes I see the small advantage.

But all cars should have the ability to PERMANENTLY switch it off ! Especially if you are a rural driver.

What a pain having to switch it off every trip.

On a technical note, I wonder if they have made it harder to permanently defeat by using a CAN BUS signal from the over ride switch?

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

Both the cars I am looking at for a daily at the moment have this technology (MY15 Mazda 6 Touring and MY15 Mazda 3 Astina XD Manual). After driving both today with the stop start tech I didn't find it an issue at all... It never held me up at the light starting up again and as said above, in the Astina Manual if I didn't want it to engage I kept the clutch in... Or pressed the simple button on start up...

i would be looking at what the service costs are and also any components likey to need refurbishment Big Daz , clutch replacement/battery/etc,etc, servicing and parts can be a killer.

[ratter]

I have not heard of a current car that does not use the starter motor to restart the car, but happy to be corrected, and we have to remember that the electrics are a lot sturdier than a normal starter motor on a car that has this feature.
But technology is out there that can start a car without a starter motor, Bosch told us of this quite a few years ago, the ecu knows exactly of the engine position and will inject fuel from the injector in a cylinder that has just gone past tdc and then the next injector etc, and believe it or not, they believe with current technology that it is not too far into the future that we can have a car that will run on either diesel or petrol

[GTP-RPD]

What's everyone complaining about its old technology. My old 186 powerglide HT Kingswood in the early 80's had this standard. The fu**er would stall at every set of lights.

[happy1]

Same as Ratter, I wasn't aware of any current cars doing re-start just by firing off a cylinder.

Stop-start makes sense in dense city driving, but the starting and Aircon needs to be designed in a good way.

The other option, better than using a conventional starter motor, is to use the alternator as an electric motor. (It needs a small re-design to be a combined starter motor and alternator). Hybrids already uses their electric motor to start the petrol motor.

The aircon compressor should be electrically driven on a car with start-stop technology. Hybrids already has an electric driven aircon, so having this is just a matter of up-sizing alternator, battery and including the electric motor for the aircon compressor.

Some of you are concerned about 1-second delay at the lights. I haven't tried any of today's start-stop cars, but can imagine it is not the best to have this with a manual transmission. With Automatic trans it should be less of a delay to start moving forward, as the car will start moving as soon as the engine is ramping up the RPM.

Anything that can save fuel should be engineered into new cars, however it would be better to have more efficient roads with better free flowing intersections, rather than needing to stop at the lights. Cheers

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

It's older than that...we had a 1957 Morris Minor that had the same amazing technology which only seemed to activate on rainy days.

Of course it had another name..."Lucas Electrics"...

I think the Prince of Darkness simply pioneered Stop systems rather than Stop Start. Braking by short circuit.

[nadojay]

Originally Posted by ratter

I have not heard of a current car that does not use the starter motor to restart the car, but happy to be corrected, and we have to remember that the electrics are a lot sturdier than a normal starter motor on a car that has this feature.
But technology is out there that can start a car without a starter motor, Bosch told us of this quite a few years ago, the ecu knows exactly of the engine position and will inject fuel from the injector in a cylinder that has just gone past tdc and then the next injector etc, and believe it or not, they believe with current technology that it is not too far into the future that we can have a car that will run on either diesel or petrol

While conventional idling stop systems rely on a starter motor to restart the engine, Mazda's i-stop restarts the engine through combustion; fuel is directly injected into a cylinder while the engine is stopped and ignited to generate downward piston force. The result is a quick and quiet engine re-start compared to other systems and a significant saving in fuel.
To restart the engine by combustion, the compression-stroke and expansion-stroke pistons need to be stopped at exactly the correct positions to create the right balance of air volumes. Mazda's i-stop ensures precise control over the piston positions during engine shutdown. With all the pistons stopped at the optimum positions, the system then identifies the initial cylinder for fuel injection. It injects fuel and ignites it to restart the engine. Even at extremely low rpm, cylinders are identified for sequential ignition, making the engine quickly pick up to idling speed.
These technologies enable the system to restart the engine with exactly the same timing every time, to enhance fuel economy, and to deliver smooth and comfortable acceleration for the driver at restart. The restart takes place in a mere 0.35 seconds (internal measurement on vehicle with automatic transmission), which is about half of the time taken by conventional starter-motor idling stop systems.

http://www2.mazda.com/en/technology/env/i-stop/

[uniacidz]

To me, is great technology to view and does save a tiny bit in the long run.

I do though have my gripes on it and that its slows down traffic a bit.

If you do grid lock, can hear the stop/starts and those cars always have ppl behind them and the cars in front are gone.

Maybe its the drivers, maybe its the car, but to me does slow traffic down.

[Peter B - CV8]

When does most engine wear occur ??? Yeah - that's right, at start up..... That vital time when oil pressure needs to build up & lubricate stuff (even on a warm/hot engine).

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Peter B - CV8

When does most engine wear occur ??? Yeah - that's right, at start up..... That vital time when oil pressure needs to build up & lubricate stuff (even on a warm/hot engine).

Good point...

But as people have noted before...most modern cars are hardly the stuff of long life. Honestly, do you think that unless you absolutely baby and hardly ever use your, say, new GT Falcon that it will be still going strong in 40 years time like XY GT's are...?

[damo76]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

What's everyone complaining about its old technology. My old 186 powerglide HT Kingswood in the early 80's had this standard. The fu**er would stall at every set of lights.

Come to think of it my old LJ Torana used to aswell.

[mik]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Good point...

But as people have noted before...most modern cars are hardly the stuff of long life. Honestly, do you think that unless you absolutely baby and hardly ever use your, say, new GT Falcon that it will be still going strong in 40 years time like XY GT's are...?

By the same token , if the idea is economy, surely if your up for an engine rebuild sooner is just robbing peter to pay Paul?
One should also look at the servicing regime for these cars with the stop start......... Also If they require more frequent servicing and parts then the extra complexity doesn't give much value.

[deadfish2]

The stop start on my parents cx5 is no dramas, I'm not sure if people these days a being picky and hating for no real reason without trying it......

It's that quick at restart, by the time you take your foot off the brake and get your foot on the accelerator, the engine is already running,

If the a/c is working hard on a hot day, istop dosnt activate, if sitting at the lights and cabin temp is rising, the engine restarts,

The mazdas keep statistic for the istop in the instrument cluster for you too see, so for my olds car it's 14months old, has done 9,000km, and is saying istop has activated for 11hours 30min, as an example if stationary motor uses 1 LPH, and vehicles averages 10L/100KM there's, 11.5L fuel saved or an extra 115km driving

As for previous posts, what does rural drivers have to worry about? The system doesn't work while driving,
And can bus dosnt have really have anything to do with interfeering with disabling it permanently, can-bus is a high speed data network that links all the control modules in the vehicle and reduces the amount of wiring, so push the button, that goes to the body control module, body control transmits to the ecm via can-bus, ecm in its programming than switches off the system during that engine run time.

[deadfish2]

Originally Posted by mik

Also If they require more frequent servicing and parts then the extra complexity doesn't give much value.

No extra servicing... It's just a feature, and stems from Greenies looking after the polar bears once again,

Stop start primarily allows for better emissions testing, no engine running during testing makes the average results better...

Same scenario for diesels and emissions, egr amd exhaust after treatment

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Peter B - CV8

When does most engine wear occur ??? Yeah - that's right, at start up..... That vital time when oil pressure needs to build up & lubricate stuff (even on a warm/hot engine).

Not true.

Oil is every where it just does not run off like water you know.

You do not need oil pressure for oil to do it's job, oil does it's job.

The oil pressure comes about only because it is needed, if oil is their it's doing it's job.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by deadfish2

The stop start on my parents cx5 is no dramas, I'm not sure if people these days a being picky and hating for no real reason without trying it......

It's that quick at restart, by the time you take your foot off the brake and get your foot on the accelerator, the engine is already running,

The current Mazda system may work well, but I suspect there are some stop-start systems out there that may not work as well, causing unnecessary delays in stop-start traffic flow in freeway jams and starting off from the traffic lights, which only adds to congestion on the roads.

I can also imagine when these systems get older, reliability will reduce, causing increased traffic problems on the roads.

[deadfish2]

I'm gathering people would be cringing at the mazda I-eloop system that does capacitive charging...

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

The current Mazda system may work well, but I suspect there are some stop-start systems out there that may not work as well, causing unnecessary delays in stop-start traffic flow in freeway jams and starting off from the traffic lights, which only adds to congestion on the roads.

I can also imagine when these systems get older, reliability will reduce, causing increased traffic problems on the roads.

Just because you suspect and imagine a lot, doesn't make it true

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Just because you suspect and imagine a lot, doesn't make it true

So you say it won't happen?

Thank you for your reassurance. I can now delete that possibility.

[olfella]

Anyone had any oil testing on these cars/systems to see if fuel dilution is an issue especially requiring more frequent oil changes?