So is it the end of the Holden??

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by Neale

Good bye holden = good bye V8 supercars

V8 Supercars will not be missed

Jokes aside, GMH are in real poo. They received a shedload of money to build Cruze here, I'm not so sure they will get more.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by DJM83

As has been posted one can't survive without the other.
But the commodore has been the better of the 2, received monies from govco yet they are saying it will be the first to fold
Ford on the other hand have plummeting sales no hand outs but will last longer.
Am I missing something?

Fords in a better position not exporting, where Holden would be copping a pasting from every car they export due to the high aussie dollar.

They would make very little if any profit on Cruze either. Ford didn't build Focus cause they figured they couldn't make money on it, and Toyota stopped building Corolla and only recently said they couldn't make money on the latest Corolla if they built it here either. Yet Holden can somehow make it work with Cruze. Only government cash got it here.

[Neale]

Originally Posted by charles_wif_xf

V8 Supercars will not be missed

Jokes aside, GMH are in real poo. They received a shedload of money to build Cruze here, I'm not so sure they will get more.

Ha ha, then again theres no holdens in it anyway

[atec77]

Originally Posted by Neale

Good bye holden = good bye V8 supercars

No more supercars ?
where is the downside ?
I wll watch a euro style run what ya brung style

[atec77]

Originally Posted by wimpy

well I hope the company is forced to repay the millions that we have given them in support over the years if they do shut the gates..

I really hope they don't....not a fan of the rampaging lion but wouldn't like to see it go either!

Tme to bring back import duty and the same for parts
It is a bluff that Holden doesn't deserve to win

[svo supporter]

I heard Toyota is downsizing their imports, along with their cars built in Aust.

I've seen the newspaper seems to be alot thinner since Xmas.

In other words. The Journos are trying to justify their jobs, so they're writing what ever they bloody feel like to full space in the papers.

Oh and the gov't handouts to Holden. Does anybody stop to think, how many other industries rely on car manufacturing plants being in the area? This includes Ford. Having them there, means more people have a bloody job, which in turn means they pay more in tax (more money to the gov't) and they spend more money (which means more money to the gov't), rather than these people recieving gov't handouts (which means the gov't gets bugger all money from these people)

So instead of these forum members just jumping up and down about Holden getting a gov't handout, flip over to the other side of the coin and look at the benefits the gov't gets from keeping the doors open to this manufacturing plant.

[GT69]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

I heard Toyota is downsizing their imports, along with their cars built in Aust.

I've seen the newspaper seems to be alot thinner since Xmas.

In other words. The Journos are trying to justify their jobs, so they're writing what ever they bloody feel like to full space in the papers.

Oh and the gov't handouts to Holden. Does anybody stop to think, how many other industries rely on car manufacturing plants being in the area? This includes Ford. Having them there, means more people have a bloody job, which in turn means they pay more in tax (more money to the gov't) and they spend more money (which means more money to the gov't), rather than these people recieving gov't handouts (which means the gov't gets bugger all money from these people)

So instead of these forum members just jumping up and down about Holden getting a gov't handout, flip over to the other side of the coin and look at the benefits the gov't gets from keeping the doors open to this manufacturing plant.

I guess most of the forum members jumping up and down about this are doing so because Holden/GM continue to do the same thing, without trying to sort their own mess out. Then go begging for more money from govco to sort if out for them. As Ford supports, I think its well within these members rights to be annoyed by this turn of events. And before anyone starts with the....but ford did ..... blah blah blah. The recent evidence is that one of these 2 companies have a plan, the other has the same fail plan they've had since 1979.

As for the other industries that will get hurt by Holden kicking the bucket, I know its bad, but I still want Holden to go bankrupt and have to actually play the game like a real player, not like Daddy's special sun that everyone has to be kind to. They're big kids, if Holden build Cruze at a lose, why is that mine or anyone else's problem?

They aren't going anywhere, GM will be around for another 100 years, the difference is, Holden/GM have a chance to play it smart, but if you give them no reason to do so, they wont. I love Ford for what they have done. And watching Fords name dragged through the mud by pi$$poor journos while the same said journos talk up a company currently living on welfare (world wide) sends me ballistic.

Also....coming from a company thats forever got a new concept car out....and all the positive BS that comes along with a GM nameplate, is becoming ridiculous. The Volt was going to save GM....Ford's Focus seems to be the only plug in hybrid worth mentioning...... Now GM have a 2 seater coupe concept? I know they're government owned currently, but gee wizz can they stop acting like a government department for 5 seconds and concentrate on being an actual, profit making entity! /end rant

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Totally opposite, Holden would of closed without Cruze - Holden and the government have said that.

Holden have said today they only want to make cars for mass-market segments with only a focus on local sales - in Australia that means Light Cars, Small Cars and Compact SUVs. Large cars are not in the mix, however I still think they will make Commodore though. So I see this going forward with Holden:

Cruze sedan and hatch
Cruze-based SUV
Commodore sedan and wagon

That's it, no more LWB, and no more exports.

The only problem is that Holden is on record as voicing concern that
the +$21,000 Cruze may soon out sell the +$35,000 Commodore...

The Cruze plan was fine and dandy for adding volume to a mostly Commodore
line but now that the tables have turned, the plants combined average
transaction price is much less than Ford's single shift multi product line...

I'm just thinking that Holden's move to "ace" Ford and their Focus plan
has backfired badly and now they may about to go under a bus...

[kaniSS]

Oh come on, these articles really **** me. You will never see the day Holden packs up and leaves this country. Nor will you ever see an Aussie street without a Holden parked on it. Every second car on the road is a Holden, asif they are going to pack up and leave.

They just dropped to number two, this is just a publicity stunt to get you to buy one on the slight chance it will become a "collectors Item"

Read the comment section below the article, some people are discussing buying one and storing it away already.

Marketing stunt, nothing more.

[BHDOGS]

Buy one and store it away haha what idiot would do that

[jpd80]

Plenty of Omega specced Caprices for sale, especially if you like your passenger doing the driving....

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The only problem is that Holden is on record as voicing concern that
the +$21,000 Cruze may soon out sell the +$35,000 Commodore...

The Cruze plan was fine and dandy for adding volume to a mostly Commodore
line but now that the tables have turned, the plants combined average
transaction price is much less than Ford's single shift multi product line...

I'm just thinking that Holden's move to "ace" Ford and their Focus plan
has backfired badly and now they may about to go under a bus...

You're missing the point Commodore would be dead without Cruze. And your looking at transaction prices wrong, Cruze costs peanuts to build whereas Fg cost half a billion to design and only sold 18,000.

[GTP-03]

The only reason Cruze is made here is to save Aussie jobs and save the Holden plant. Think about it, with our high production and wages cost it would of been finacially more profitable to of kept building it in Korea.
The only problem is its not making any profit for Holden and they depend on government hand outs to keep the plant operational and to keep other local jobs afloat which would all collapse otherwise.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

You're missing the point

i guess some people wear blue glasses, and some wear red glasses....

[Falcman0o7]

God GM are pathetic.

All they do is boast about their cars yet they are forever in strife.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by GT69

I guess most of the forum members jumping up and down about this are doing so because Holden/GM continue to do the same thing, without trying to sort their own mess out. Then go begging for more money from govco to sort if out for them. As Ford supports, I think its well within these members rights to be annoyed by this turn of events. And before anyone starts with the....but ford did ..... blah blah blah. The recent evidence is that one of these 2 companies have a plan, the other has the same fail plan they've had since 1979.

As for the other industries that will get hurt by Holden kicking the bucket, I know its bad, but I still want Holden to go bankrupt and have to actually play the game like a real player, not like Daddy's special sun that everyone has to be kind to. They're big kids, if Holden build Cruze at a lose, why is that mine or anyone else's problem?

They aren't going anywhere, GM will be around for another 100 years, the difference is, Holden/GM have a chance to play it smart, but if you give them no reason to do so, they wont. I love Ford for what they have done. And watching Fords name dragged through the mud by pi$$poor journos while the same said journos talk up a company currently living on welfare (world wide) sends me ballistic.

Also....coming from a company thats forever got a new concept car out....and all the positive BS that comes along with a GM nameplate, is becoming ridiculous. The Volt was going to save GM....Ford's Focus seems to be the only plug in hybrid worth mentioning...... Now GM have a 2 seater coupe concept? I know they're government owned currently, but gee wizz can they stop acting like a government department for 5 seconds and concentrate on being an actual, profit making entity! /end rant

Well said.

Originally Posted by Brazen

You're missing the point Commodore would be dead without Cruze. And your looking at transaction prices wrong, Cruze costs peanuts to build whereas Fg cost half a billion to design and only sold 18,000.

The problem is Cruze doesn't cost that much less to build than Commodore, but their selling it for around half the price, so the profit on them must be f all. And the cost of getting it into production isn't exactly cheap. It would still have cost many, many millions, and when your profit on each one is bugger all then it will take forever to pay for the cost of development.

So they are no better off than Ford are with FG. At least FG has had 4 years of sales to pay development already, with maybe another 5 or 6 years to go. Then they have Territory on top of that selling at an average price of maybe 50 grand?

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

I absolutely loathe General Motors, but the auto industry in this country is a house of cards, if one goes they all go.

+1.

The industry is below critical mass. If any of the three go, the other two will follow shortly after.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Plenty of Omega specced Caprices for sale, especially if you like your passenger doing the driving....

I'd take one, apart from the fact that the povvo spec interior is truly povvo (worse than Omega)

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Well said.
The problem is Cruze doesn't cost that much less to build than Commodore, but their selling it for around half the price, so the profit on them must be f all. And the cost of getting it into production isn't exactly cheap. It would still have cost many, many millions, and when your profit on each one is bugger all then it will take forever to pay for the cost of development.

But Chairman Rudd and Auntie Joolia paid for the Cruze to come to Australia, so the net cost to Holden was not a great deal. That being said, has anyone seen a Cruze hatch on the road? I've seen more LPI Falcons.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Paxton

But Chairman Rudd and Auntie Joolia paid for the Cruze to come to Australia, so the net cost to Holden was not a great deal. That being said, has anyone seen a Cruze hatch on the road? I've seen more LPI Falcons.

They surely wouldn't have paid for the whole thing though?

I've seen 1 Cruze hatch, thats it. When Holden released the hatch sales have tanked ever since. Very odd. Everyone thought it would increase sales by a lot.

[Road_Warrior]

Probably because it looks like a Cicada that's been rear ended.

[Jim Goose]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1...tralia/3766370

State and federal governments are likely to pay Holden's parent company a "substantial amount" to keep manufacturing bases in Australia.

South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill has foreshadowed a major funding announcement after news the closure of Holden's Australian operations was one option being considered by US parent company General Motors.

Mr Weatherill, Federal Manufacturing Minister Kim Carr and Holden chairman Mike Devereux met with GM executives in Detroit on Monday (US time) to discuss the company's future.

He says the Federal Government will bear the brunt of future funding, which he insists will not be a rescue package.

"We're talking about a very substantial investment from both the Commonwealth and State Government and that's why we want to make sure we get a decent return for that amenity," he said

"It would obviously provide security for the future but we want to make sure that beyond the life of the next model of the Holden it also secures a future for an advanced manufacturing industry in South Australia based on a car manufacturing industry."

He says details of the funding, which he described as a co-investment, are still being determined.

"That's the subject of negotiations. It would undermine our negotiation to disclose that but suffice to say it's a very substantial sum."

Most of Holden's 4,800 workers are based at its Elizabeth assembly plant in South Australia and its Port Melbourne engine factory.
'Bright future'

Mr Devereux says the Government's strategy is the right one.

"There isn't a country in the world that actually has an auto industry, an integrated auto industry, that can design, build and sell a car from scratch that doesn't have one of two things: either large tariff barriers to entry for imports or co-investment," he said.

"Now Australia - I think appropriately so - has taken a very open market approach. It's good for consumers, it's good for prices coming down but it also places pressure on those local manufacturers.

"Countries like Russia, India, China, [have] 40-50 per cent import tariffs.
Messrs Devereux, Akerson, Carr and Weatherill at GM's HQ in Detroit Photo: Messrs Devereux, Akerson, Carr and Weatherill at GM's headquarters in Detroit (Holden)

"In Australia we have effective tariffs of about 3, 3.5 per cent so if you're not going to have a large tariff wall every country on the planet that plays the game that way has a co-investment attraction type of methodology to get global companies to invest literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in new equipment, plants and technology.

"And that's the path forward for Australia and for South Australia."

Mr Devereux would not speculate on the likelihood of the Elizabeth plant's closure but said it will continue to be a manufacturing base for years to come.

"I'm very confident that with the strong relationship that we currently have and with enough forward planning - and we're talking things three or four years from now - that we'll have a great outcome for both Holden and for the city and for the state," he said.

"We're really not talking about the next three to four years. We're talking about events that will happen in the second half of this decade."

The Federal Government says it expects to have reached an agreement with GM in the next few weeks.
How much?

The South Australian Opposition says it wants to know how much money the Government would invest.

Opposition Leader Isobel Redmond says the State Government has already given almost $36 million to Holden over the past seven years.

"We're all hopeful Holden can stay here, but the reality is we've already put a considerable amount of money, I think some $35 million, $36 million over the years into Holden," she said.

"I would want to know that we're getting some sort of security for the future for jobs not only for Holden but for the ancillary industry of course that are attached to it."

She says the carmaker should consider changes at the plant.

"Whether that's because we manufacture the right-hand drive vehicles or whether it's because we can be the best at producing some new innovative electronic vehicle or whatever it might be," she said.

"I don't want to see us close the door on manufacturing and particularly automotive manufacturing in this state, but I think we do need to take a long-term view as to just where the future might lie."

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

You're missing the point Commodore would be dead without Cruze. And your looking at transaction prices wrong, Cruze costs peanuts to build whereas Fg cost half a billion to design and only sold 18,000.

Yes, FG cost around $500 million but since mid 2008, it has sold around 93,000 sedans and around 33,000 Utes
Therefore $500 million amortized in the past three and a half years is approximately $4,000 per vehicle...

And, if you recall, Holden has spent close to 500 million to bring Cruze to Australia....

Holden cannot rely on Cruze to save Commodore, projects aren't funded that way,
Holden needs to Improve Commodore to make it more attractive to buyers
like Ford is doing with Ecoboost and EcoLPI, how about they use that 200 Kw 2.0 DI turbo?
Probably too expensive for them to introduce...just like their V6 diesel plan, all pipe dreams.
At least Ford has Ecoboost here now and a diesel within spitting distance.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The only problem is that Holden is on record as voicing concern that
the +$21,000 Cruze may soon out sell the +$35,000 Commodore...

The Cruze plan was fine and dandy for adding volume to a mostly Commodore
line but now that the tables have turned, the plants combined average
transaction price is much less than Ford's single shift multi product line...

I'm just thinking that Holden's move to "ace" Ford and their Focus plan
has backfired badly and now they may about to go under a bus...

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, FG cost around $500 million but since mid 2008, it has sold around 93,000 sedans and around 33,000 Utes
Therefore $500 million amortized in the past three and a half years is approximately $4,000 per vehicle...

And, if you recall, Holden has spent close to 500 million to bring Cruze to Australia....

Oh, so I assume you have full access to Holden's and Ford's accounts departments, seeing that you have such intimate knowledge of what goes on in them?
You have made many claims throughout your posts on this forum but seldom have I seen any concrete evidence to support these claims - they are simply your assumptions and opinions which you are misleadingly trying to pass off as fact.

[Joe5619]

I wonder how much "very substantial" means???

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

Oh, so I assume you have full access to Holden's and Ford's accounts departments, seeing that you have such intimate knowledge of what goes on in them?

I know some stuff that's in the public domain, so yes I take the time to dig...

Last year, FoA announced publicly that they had approximately $475 million internal debt which they are paying down ahead of declaring profit, I'd assume that Holden is doing the same.

LINK
Holden announced on December 22 that it would manufacture an all-new small-car line alongside the Commodore model range at its Adelaide factory from the third quarter of 2010 “with assistance from the federal and South Australian governments”.

In addition to $149 million over three years from the Australian government’s Green Car Innovation Fund (GCIF), which will contribute one dollar for every three dollars invested by Holden in the project, the SA government committed $30 million over four years.

That should take the total ‘Delta’ program spend to more than $600 million, including $450 million of which was ‘quarantined’ from within GM, which was this week given 60 days to come up with a new survival plan for US president Barack Obama’s automotive taskforce, under new chairman and chief executive Fritz Henderson.

[stevz]

It's written in the media, so it must be true.....

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by stevz

Oh, so I assume you have full access to Holden's and Ford's accounts departments, seeing that you have such intimate knowledge of what goes on in them?
You have made many claims throughout your posts on this forum but seldom have I seen any concrete evidence to support these claims - they are simply your assumptions and opinions which you are misleadingly trying to pass off as fact.

In his defence, they are easily accessible numbers, the only thing he cannot prove is the average transaction price of each of those vehicles as to whether the FG model is profitable or not.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

In his defence, they are easily accessible numbers, the only thing he cannot prove is the average transaction price of each of those vehicles as to whether the FG model is profitable or not.

I wasn't referring solely to those two posts, but his posts in general.

[jpd80]

Listen, you guys whinge and moan about stuff but how much time do you really take to research stuff before you post?

I'll admit sometimes some of the things I post are a little off base but mostly set in some basic truth.

I am happy to step back and stop posting and let you all continue discussing whatever..................


See ya.