Trends and Choices

[five 7]

Sometimes you chuck thoughts opinions and bias out the window, you just know a man dressed in skimpy woman's clothes wearing woman's face, and reading inappropriate books to under fives at a libary is wrong, no matter how its twisted, this has happened at libarys near me. You never hear them wanting to read at say a old folks home its always our kids they want. The last rainbow reading at our local to me libary (Ranui) needed two police officers for protection, go figure.

[GasoLane]

I read somewhere once that DNA tests show 'Male' or 'Female'. Never heard of a test coming back 'other'

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Since I'm not allowed to reply to a post in here, I just want to apologise if I've offended anyone in here. I genuinely make effort to not do that, but sometimes I make mistakes and can accidentally tread on toes.

And just to reiterate, I'm also not trying to express my views on certain subjects because I can appreciate that it may be a topic that people can get passionate about. My post was trying to invoke discussion on different people's perspectives on things and how we handle that.

Peace. Out.

You don't need to apologise, you are entitled to your views. The big difference today in society is you are being forced to accept values whether you believe in them or not, history is being rewritten in this country whether you like it or not.
When I went to school you were taught the three RRR's , these days children are being indoctrinated with political views as to what is acceptable by the government of the day which I think is morally wrong.
In my honest view "Free Speech is diminishing badly in this country" very sad indeed as to what it was really like decades ago when I was young.

Cheers

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Itsme

You don't need to apologise, you are entitled to your views. The big difference today in society is you are being forced to accept values whether you believe in them or not, history is being rewritten in this country whether you like it or not.
When I went to school you were taught the three RRR's , these days children are being indoctrinated with political views as to what is acceptable by the government of the day which I think is morally wrong.
In my honest view "Free Speech is diminishing badly in this country" very sad indeed as to what it was really like decades ago when I was young.

Cheers

Did you do a form of RI when you were at school? Is that not a form of 'forced values'? Or what about saying please, thank you, being considerate of other people? Sure, that last lot may be what society as a whole considers normal, but you're still being moulded when you're at school. Every single one of us has had that happen to us. It's just that what's happening now is different to what we experienced.

Is the history you and I were taught at school, which had an English slant to it, historically correct? Students today are being taught something different to what we learnt. Is that history being re-written? Is that better or worse? Or just different? I'm not raising any of these to be argumentative (even though some may consider it that way) rather just to show that just because things are different to what we know/learnt doesn't necessarily make it worse or wrong.

Heck, I can remember my parents worrying about what the future looked like when were taught things different to what they were at school. The world hasn't imploded (yet! ). Is this really that different?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I read somewhere once that DNA tests show 'Male' or 'Female'. Never heard of a test coming back 'other'

Unless you are at area 51.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Did you do a form of RI when you were at school? Is that not a form of 'forced values'? Or what about saying please, thank you, being considerate of other people? Sure, that last lot may be what society as a whole considers normal, but you're still being moulded when you're at school. Every single one of us has had that happen to us. It's just that what's happening now is different to what we experienced.

Is the history you and I were taught at school, which had an English slant to it, historically correct? Students today are being taught something different to what we learnt. Is that history being re-written? Is that better or worse? Or just different? I'm not raising any of these to be argumentative (even though some may consider it that way) rather just to show that just because things are different to what we know/learnt doesn't necessarily make it worse or wrong.

Heck, I can remember my parents worrying about what the future looked like when were taught things different to what they were at school. The world hasn't imploded (yet! ). Is this really that different?

You are an intelligent person, been around for a long time and I think you know what I'm alluding to, I don't need to say anymore other than that I have not led a sheltered life. In the last 23 years I've seen a big swing of politics in this country and it is not for the better in my view.
Cheers

[b0son]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Isn't it still an alternative view (by that, I mean different) to yours that you're judging based on your own bias?

I can understand the idea of an alternative view when you're debating two sides of something that has a degree of subjectivity. But teaching people that you are what you identify as, is objectively false. Biology matters, and arguably, trumps one's mental state.

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I read somewhere once that DNA tests show 'Male' or 'Female'. Never heard of a test coming back 'other'

You just reminded me of a cracker from last year.

My niece was doing biology at school, in particular, chromosomes. She explained to us how I’m XY whilst my wife is XX, and if we have a baby, its gender will depend on the X or Y from me. She understood the concept straight away.

She then told me how one smart alec suggested in class that people who identify as “other” must be YY.

I cracked up laughing at the “innocent” suggestion from the class clown. The teacher apparently didn’t know what to say - deny it, and it’s like you’re saying there’s only 2 genders, and it’s a quick trip to the PC Principal’s office. Confirm it, and you’re spinning crap to kids. Same trip to the Principal’s office!

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I read somewhere once that DNA tests show 'Male' or 'Female'. Never heard of a test coming back 'other'

Sounds to me like your source wasn't very good, Gaso. Perhaps a little bit more research would be appropriate. A DNA test checks for chromosomes: either XY for male or XX for females. So how does a two category only test, as you've alluded to, cater for an intersex person that may have XXY chromosomes or XO chromosomes?

And to be perfectly honest, I can absolutely understand how an intersex person might find the view that DNA test results only categorise people into two groups as offensive. It completely dismisses them. It's not for this thread, but man it must be bloody hard to be an intersex person when society has the view that you must fit into one of two groups that you know you don't fit into.

Originally Posted by Itsme

You don't need to apologise, you are entitled to your views. - - snip - -

Just for clarity, I wasn't apologising for expressing my views. I was apologising if the way I expressed my view offended anyone. Not for what my views were. As you say, no one should be apologising for expressing their views.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

either XY for male or XX for females. So how does a two category only test, as you've alluded to, cater for an intersex person that may have XXY chromosomes or XO chromosomes?

So? Nature gets it wrong.

Sex is not a spectrum, it's binary. If someone doesn't fit the binary, it's because their genetics are aberrant. They are typically infertile.

The number of fingers on a human hand is five. The existence of polydactyly doesnt mean the number of fingers exists on a spectrum.

People always seem to bring up intersex conditions as some sort of gotcha, but it just shows people dont really understand genetics.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by b0son

So? Nature gets it wrong.

Sex is not a spectrum, it's binary. If someone doesn't fit the binary, it's because their genetics are aberrant. They are typically infertile.

The number of fingers on a human hand is five. The existence of polydactyly doesnt mean the number of fingers exists on a spectrum.

People always seem to bring up intersex conditions as some sort of gotcha, but it just shows people dont really understand genetics.

How can something be binary if you acknowledge that nature sometimes gets it wrong and produces something other than a binary outcome? If you said that it was generally, or normally, binary, I'd agree.

Just because people who say it and may not know genetics doesn't make it wrong. I'm certainly no expert in that field at all, but those who are experts in that field certainly identify that it's not a binary outcome. Do you know more about genetics than them? Or are they wrong, too?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

How can something be binary if you acknowledge that nature sometimes gets it wrong and produces something other than a binary outcome? If you said that it was generally, or normally, binary, I'd agree.

You're just playing semantics now. Would you say cystic fibrosis is a disease? Or is it a clever adaptation that allows people to slowly drown in their own mucus that simply hasn't found an environment within which to be advantageous?

Intersex conditions arise predominantly through chromosomal abnormalities. They cant reproduce in the vast majority of cases. It's clear that our species strives to be either male or female, but mistakes happen.

those who are experts in that field certainly identify that it's not a binary outcome. Do you know more about genetics than them? Or are they wrong, too?

There are no intermediate gametes. They are either male or female. The fact that an intermediate outcome can only ever arise when something goes wrong speaks for itself.

[Citroënbender]

Scandal; it’s timeless. From the destruction of Sodom, through to “thirty pieces of silver” (cf: KJV), to Lydia Bennett eloping with Wickham …


And as Miss Minogue herself once said:

…stop killing the rhinos.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by b0son

You're just playing semantics now.

You can call it semantics and I'll call it being factual.

Originally Posted by b0son

Would you say cystic fibrosis is a disease?

Yes, I would. I don't know much about the subject at all, so I'll refer to those who know more about it than I do. This is from the Australian Governments Health Direct website. I'd consider that to be a pretty reputable source?

Cystic fibrosis (CF) is a genetic disease that mostly affects the lungs and digestive system. It results from a fault in a particular gene.

Their underline, not mine.

Originally Posted by b0son

Intersex conditions arise predominantly through chromosomal abnormalities. They cant reproduce in the vast majority of cases. It's clear that our species strives to be either male or female, but mistakes happen.

Thankyou for once again acknowledging that there are more than two gender states available for humans.

You seem to know a lot about this, b0son. Do you have a background in this field? I certainly don't so please excuse me if some of the terms I've used are not scientifically accurate. I'm sure you (and others) get the message I'm trying to convey though.

I don't think we're going to see each others point of view. Perhaps it's time we agreed to disagree and move on?


This will be a challenge for some people in here, but there was a very eye opening show a few years back on intersex people. Watch it. With an open mind to learning something. If you can't do that, at least look at it from the perspective of understanding as to how someone who is intersex feels in their day to day life and the challenges their condition presents. See if you have the ability to empathise with them.

It is estimated that 1 - 2% of the population are intersex. I don't know how many members we have on these great forums, but let's say it is (very conservatively) 100. That means that, statistically, there are two intersex members in our group. Think about how they feel when they read some of the comments on here.



The full show is available on iview for those brave enough to watch it all.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Their underline, not mine.

So you accept that unhealthy variation of a gene is a disease, but an entire chromosomal abnormality is simply normal variation?

Thankyou for once again acknowledging that there are more than two gender states available for humans.

We're talking about sex, not gender.

You seem to know a lot about this, b0son.

A couple of semesters of developmental genetics, and a few years doing genetic engineering at the postgrad and postdoc level.

It is estimated that 1 - 2% of the population are intersex.

Anne Fausto-Sterling’s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome [47,XXY], Turner syndrome [45,X], and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling’s estimate of 1.7%.

[prydey]

Humans are animals. They come in 2 types. Male and female.

They have a reproductive system. One is designed to go with the other to produce offspring. That is fact. Not a choice.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Thanks for your reply, b0son. I also appreciate the insight you offer.

Originally Posted by b0son

So you accept that unhealthy variation of a gene is a disease, but an entire chromosomal abnormality is simply normal variation?

I don't know enough to be able to accept or reject what you're saying. I'm simply going off what other experts in the field have said. The only thing I can say is that I don't think I'm trying to say it's 'normal'. I'm saying it can happen and at a frequency. See more on that frequency discussion below.

Originally Posted by b0son

We're talking about sex, not gender.

Yep, you're right. My bad. But I think you knew the message I was trying to
convey. Pointing out my errors in wording doesn't, or shouldn't, change that message.

Originally Posted by b0son

A couple of semesters of developmental genetics, and a few years doing genetic engineering at the postgrad and postdoc level.

So, far my qualified in this area than I am. And I respect your experience.

Originally Posted by b0son

Anne Fausto-Sterling’s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome [47,XXY], Turner syndrome [45,X], and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling’s estimate of 1.7%.

What's the source for this? It appears to emanate from a paper by family physician and psychologist Dr Leonard Sax.

This page from the Intersex Human Rights Australia website discusses that and expresses some concern about that view.

This is taken from the Intersex Society of America, and seems pretty balanced to me. But perhaps that's my own bias showing up.

To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count “sex chromosome” anomalies as intersex if there’s no apparent external sexual ambiguity?[1] (Alice Dreger explores this question in greater depth in her book Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex.)

Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life.

Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling.2 The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.

Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

I guess, a bit like this discussion, there's different points of view about what the numbers actually are. Needless to say, no matter what the number, intersex people (no matter how you define them) exist in our society.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue to clog up the thread any more. I think people know my point of view and continuing to discuss it is probably not going to add any more significant value.

But I do sincerely appreciate your insights, b0son. Thanks for the mature and respectful discussion.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Thanks for your reply, b0son. I also appreciate the insight you offer.



I don't know enough to be able to accept or reject what you're saying. I'm simply going off what other experts in the field have said. The only thing I can say is that I don't think I'm trying to say it's 'normal'. I'm saying it can happen and at a frequency. See more on that frequency discussion below.





Yep, you're right. My bad. But I think you knew the message I was trying to
convey. Pointing out my errors in wording doesn't, or shouldn't, change that message.




So, far my qualified in this area than I am. And I respect your experience.




What's the source for this? It appears to emanate from a paper by family physician and psychologist Dr Leonard Sax.

This page from the Intersex Human Rights Australia website discusses that and expresses some concern about that view.

This is taken from the Intersex Society of America, and seems pretty balanced to me. But perhaps that's my own bias showing up.



I guess, a bit like this discussion, there's different points of view about what the numbers actually are. Needless to say, no matter what the number, intersex people (no matter how you define them) exist in our society.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue to clog up the thread any more. I think people know my point of view and continuing to discuss it is probably not going to add any more significant value.

But I do sincerely appreciate your insights, b0son. Thanks for the mature and respectful discussion.

In bold is part on my problem with those who quote as such and yet confirm they have no knowledge - so therefore why quote "simply going off what other experts in the field have said" for eg....
Is he credible ? how do you know but having done a search, he might have many in their industry that oppose him and think he or she is a crack pot so to speak.

Just saying Foxy.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by FTE217

In bold is part on my problem with those who quote as such and yet confirm they have no knowledge - so therefore why quote "simply going off what other experts in the field have said" for eg....
Is he credible ? how do you know but having done a search, he might have many in their industry that oppose him and think he or she is a crack pot so to speak.

Just saying Foxy.

It was the Australian Government's website, FTE, Not one person's view of the world.

[blueoval]

This is a topic that seems to come up more often in SM than I've ever seen before.

I don't have children but have nephews and they have been pulled out of schools to be homeschooled by their parents. Based on the context of this thread, most would know why. I'm kind of glad I don't have kids now but am concerned for my nephews and all children around the world due to some of these harmful ideologies.

I am seeing the USA plummet into a chasm of disturbing proportions. All under the guise of 'equality' and 'acceptance', while demanding you use the terminology, pronouns, etc these individuals are comfortable with and in the same breathe they question your basic biological understanding and thoughts of what is/isn't acceptable or risk being called a 'hateful bigot'. It seems like companies and businesses are jumping on this bandwagon of 'inclusivity' for fear of being cancelled or boycotted.

People have often thought WW3 would be here in nuclear and weapon form like it was in the 40s. Part of me thinks WW3 is psychological/spiritual attack of traditional values to the family arrangement and promotes division among civilians against civilians. Using/changing words and traditional language as a weapon to weaken society so to speak.

Agree or disagree with what I have said, be my guest. But please protect your kids no matter what.

[roKWiz]

Thread was asking for this.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

It was the Australian Government's website, FTE, Not one person's view of the world.

Even more so I would question it…sorry.
Especially ones of late.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by blueoval

This is a topic that seems to come up more often in SM than I've ever seen before.

There are troll farms in; China, Russia, North Korea that exist solely to post BS on line to create division in "the West". This topic is their stock in trade.

I wonder how many people full of fear and loathing for this particular group have ever met someone from that group and had a conversation with them.

I wonder how many people full of fear and loathing for this particular group, would feel if a member of their family was born that way, a child or grandchild they wish to protect ?

[marty351]

In the USA and Canada in particular, you can see it unfold in front of the camera, and in some places certain speech is outlawed. The minorities within certain groups even turn against their own if they don't play along.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by marty351

In the USA and Canada in particular, you can see it unfold in front of the camera, and in some places certain speech is outlawed. The minorities within certain groups even turn against their own if they don't play along.

School district board sets a rule that a students sex can change on a whim when desired and that "transgender" students can access toilets that their body parts would traditionally ban them from.

Male student decides to be a transgender female student for the day and enters a female school toilet dressed in a skirt where he orally rapes and sodomises a female student.

The father of the victim went to face the school board at one of their public forums to ask why they allowed this and why they denied the incident existed. The school board flatly denied there had ever been any incidents of rape or assault stemming from their decision to allow the above.

Father gets emotional and angry, school board calls security to have the bloke forcibly removed where he was promptly arrested and immediately charged by the local DA with domestic terrorism and put in jail.

Same kid was arrested again months down the track for assaulting another female student at another school.

Talk about ****ed!

[DRU842]

If this is the referenced case it doesn't involve 'transgender students' according to court records: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/28/o...nty-trans.html

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

There are troll farms in; China, Russia, North Korea that exist solely to post BS on line to create division in "the West". This topic is their stock in trade.

I wonder how many people full of fear and loathing for this particular group have ever met someone from that group and had a conversation with them.

I would ask J K Rowling that but don't use Twitter to do it.

[Work Horse]

Is Tucker Carlson correct?

Are we all being fooled into debating subjects than actually have no effect on any of us?

Are we being tricked into not focusing on the things that will actually make a difference to our lives?

*Disclaimer, I am not making a pitch to get myself elected, where as Tucker Carlson.....

[marty351]

Yes, yes, depends, maybe...

[five 7]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Is Tucker Carlson correct?

Are we all being fooled into debating subjects than actually have no effect on any of us?

Are we being tricked into not focusing on the things that will actually make a difference to our lives?

*Disclaimer, I am not making a pitch to get myself elected, where as Tucker Carlson.....

As with Covid in later part, I decided to only to go on what I witnessed first hand, no tricks, no outside influences, that still pushed me from Government narrative. Have a gay couple close to me that just gets on with life no fuss, I will back them up anytime, I have zero issue with there lifestyle.
My good friend had a daughter, which I've known since birth, at sixteen had a double mastectomy, is now Max with a moustace, you cannot tell me a sixteen year old can make a rational decision like that, one that is so life changing, a teens brain is still growing and developing, yet so called doctors and coucilers think it's all good yep now problem, don't need to include parents. Transvestite rainbow reading is in my libarys, and soon to be in yours from what I've seen in your news last night. When it's my family and grandkids it does have a effect on us. The education system are pushing it to, without any consideration to parents wishes. Time would be better spent teaching, reading, writing, arithmetic and how to budget and run a household. Leaving social engineering to the experts, being "Universities." So yes it does effect all of us. They are fooling us. Home schooling is now looking the better education option.