XR6 Turbo Driver abuse ??

[GlennBA]

A similar thing happened to my cousins BF XL 5 speed manual ute. The gearbox fell out of the car as he was going around a corner. Ford wouldn't cover it, blamed driver abuse and my cousin had to pay the bill. I've known him all my life and he's one of the most sensible drivers, and the ute was 100% stock.

[samftr]

Disgusting. I don't think its fuel prices hurting fords sales, its this garbage handed to the new car owners.
who'd seriously hand over their hard earned to a company that has and will most probably shaft you in the most likely event of you needing some assistance to rectify problems with a vehicle that should have NONE.

[TURBOTAXI]

Dont waste energy getting upset. Take this through a fair trading tribunal, I once (about 1997?) had a 1986 CR125 (obviously not a road vehicle) repaired after taking the dealer through this process. I just had to show up in Sydney and convince someone it was not "right".

They will fix it. NRMA resports were a great way or influencing repairs, but now you will have to use an independant inspector as NRMA no longer provide the service.

I got between $3000 and $4000 in work done on a 93,XXX k ex police XR6T you really need to stand your ground and make sure they understand you are not going away.

[Yaw]

Lets see pics of the damaged parts before we all get uptight at how unfortunate he is.
And for that matter if you are going to try fair trading or anything like that you will need the pics and an engineers report anyway.

[schmidty]

I've been through this exact same situation, multiple times.

What you need to do is talk with the warranty manager and the head service manager. Tell them the scenario leading up to the let go of the clutch. Explain that the ute has only done 4500km and that they has see that by looking at the tyres/brakes etc they'll surely see that the car has not been abused.

Next..... Call Ford customer care regardless of the response you get from the dealer on 13FORD. Explain your situation to them. Notes are taken, it's all logged with times and dates and make sure you give them the names of the dealership staff you've spoken with.

Now..... Leave it for Ford customer care and the dealership to discuss your case and they'll get back to you with a response as to what they propose to do/not do to fix it. Only after this, would i look ate involving an outside party eg. fair trading etc. It's much easier to deal internally if you can. If you're not satisfied with the outcome, keep puching higher within the dealership/ customer care until you get a response thats suitable.



And 1 thing to be aware of, i had clutch dramas with mine, and Ford simply said i was expecting too much of the car and what i was expecting of it was outside normal driving conditions. Clutch problems are one of the hardest to prove and fight an most car makers don't warrant them for any amount of km because they can be so easily abused and destroyed.
In short, all Ford need to do is claim that you'd tried to rip a screaming burnout and been slipping the clutch instead of spinning the wheels and blown the clutch. I saw it happen to a GTP and it was insane how easily and quickly it happened and the consequences were brutal. Or could say you had been driving long distances with your foot resting on the clutch and had been slipping and heated up and let go. Very hard one to get on warranty.

But don't give up. Persist, persist and persist. Document your contact, and don't take no for an answer.
I got 4 diffs in my warranty period from persistance and going through the right channels.

[Squalo]

I got 4 diffs in my warranty period from persistance and going through the right channels.

It sounds to me like you are an example of why others have so much trouble getting warranty claims through... perhaps you could elaborate further, with evidence?

[TaraHymen]

once u go to the media u forfeit any legal stregth u may have. i would've thought that at the end of the day, ford have to prove driver abuse, not u prove cotton wool treatment.

yes it did happen in wa, more than once that i can confirm as a mate of mine works for centre ford. the first one it took the owner alot of shitstirring and shouting to get ford to fix it after 10 months and the second one caught fire so the insurance company took care of it.

PM me an email address and i'll send you a heap of photos of the damage the first one did. it wrecked everything from the windscreen to the abs to the engine block. there's a lot of photos and they're relatively big so i cant post them up here.

[red_hotxr6]

It might cost a couple hundred but i would go and have someone else look at it and let them tell you what happened.Also if the car is second hand maybe the previous owner thrashed it??

[TaraHymen]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

It might cost a couple hundred but i would go and have someone else look at it and let them tell you what happened.Also if the car is second hand maybe the previous owner thrashed it??

secondhand?? it's got 4500 k's on it

[winovin]

Is it possible the on board computer logs data? e.g. I know some makers log when you hit the redline. Could this be the basis for claiming "abuse"? It could be a 1-time event that leads Ford to say the warranty is invalid?

[red_hotxr6]

Originally Posted by TaraHymen

secondhand?? it's got 4500 k's on it

Oh sorry i didnt realise new cars came down with 4500klms on them, how much did you pay for the NEW car?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by winovin

Is it possible the on board computer logs data? e.g. I know some makers log when you hit the redline. Could this be the basis for claiming "abuse"? It could be a 1-time event that leads Ford to say the warranty is invalid?

Contrary to what you think Ford are not out to bend everyone over. But there will be cases of abuse, and yes the ECU logs.

Was the ECU edited? IIRC they can even tell that now.

I would be asking for proof of the "abuse", and what defines it in the first place. And as I said before, if he genuinely hasn't been flogging that crap out of it to the point of "abuse" and hasn't edited it then other components should be fine, which would then show that there was no "abuse".

Do you have a witness to say it went on the freeway while at 100kph? Or atleast a tow truck company to back up your pick up point?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by winovin

Is it possible the on board computer logs data? e.g. I know some makers log when you hit the redline. Could this be the basis for claiming "abuse"? It could be a 1-time event that leads Ford to say the warranty is invalid?

Bingo.
The ECU and BCM computers log thousands of algorithms which include everything from injector pulse timing, rpm, throttle position, temperatures, traction control being switched off, ABS module usage etc. Basically, if it is electronic, the car records historical data of the event. This is why it is plugged into the star tester at ford which checks for any faults that occurred between services, so that ford can pro actively find faults and repair them before they become a major issue or break down. I was at Jubilee Ford when someone with an XR6T came in on a tow truck with a blown gearbox and damage, they plugged the car in and found his driving style. They then advised him that Ford would most likely decline the warranty for the fact that it had been abused. I told him to get a solicitor. In the end he lost and actually the car ended up at a Pickles salvage auction in Moorebank.

From a legal standpoint, we have heard one side of the argument and there are several other mitigating factors that would likely determine the outcome. I'd wait before decding who's at fault here, and to give you some perspective NSW police regularly thrash their vehicles and are only afforded a 6 month limited warranty that does not cover major components subject to extreme stresses ie gearboxes, diffs and engines.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by ltd

Bingo.
The ECU and BCM computers log thousands of algorithms which include everything from injector pulse timing, rpm, throttle position, temperatures, traction control being switched off, ABS module usage etc. Basically, if it is electronic, the car records historical data of the event. This is why it is plugged into the star tester at ford which checks for any faults that occurred between services, so that ford can pro actively find faults and repair them before they become a major issue or break down. I was at Jubilee Ford when someone with an XR6T came in on a tow truck with a blown gearbox and damage, they plugged the car in and found his driving style. They then advised him that Ford would most likely decline the warranty for the fact that it had been abused. I told him to get a solicitor. In the end he lost and actually the car ended up at a Pickles salvage auction in Moorebank.

From a legal standpoint, we have heard one side of the argument and there are several other mitigating factors that would likely determine the outcome. I'd wait before decding who's at fault here, and to give you some perspective NSW police regularly thrash their vehicles and are only afforded a 6 month limited warranty that does not cover major components subject to extreme stresses ie gearboxes, diffs and engines.

Does the ecu log time and date of this abuse?

I ask this because I have seen the service mechanics out "testing" cars,a friend also works at a well known Holden dealer in western Sydney,and the abuse the cars get during "testing" would shock most..

This would be my line of attack if I had this problem and was shown an ecu had logged "abuse"..

[ltd]

Yes they do log date and time, but they can and are often reset by the same tester/interface.

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by TaraHymen

yes it did happen in wa, more than once that i can confirm as a mate of mine works for centre ford. the first one it took the owner alot of shitstirring and shouting to get ford to fix it after 10 months and the second one caught fire so the insurance company took care of it.

There was more to that one..... plus from memory, it was a BA MKII and had not had the TSB done for the clutch.

Originally Posted by nugget378

Does the ecu log time and date of this abuse?

I ask this because I have seen the service mechanics out "testing" cars,a friend also works at a well known Holden dealer in western Sydney,and the abuse the cars get during "testing" would shock most..

This would be my line of attack if I had this problem and was shown an ecu had logged "abuse"..

From memory, it does not log times. But can be cleared by the dealer.

So, put 2 and 5 together..... they might take it for a thrash... but the smart ones clear the log before handing the keys back.

[ltd]

Everything from AU2 does log date and times I've witnessed

[coolkid]

what the hell is abuse anyway, i mean i wouldnt let anyone tell me that hitting the redline frequently constitutes abuse or throwing the car sideways and spinning wheels is definately not abuse. so can anyone here tell me what ford would think is abuse
i mean you didnt pay over 40k on a car that cant take the punishment that it should, all my mates cars have always been punished hard and are older than a new falcon with no problems so obviously it is ford fault

[DK30RB]

another shining example of Ford customer service.

[XR06T]

how does the clutch face look? did you pick up any of the bits that were left over? if the clutch looks 4500 km old i cant see that they have a case.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

another shining example of Ford customer service.

Here to stir some up? If you are not a ford fan then fine, but no point posting just to get a kick. (your post in the TRD thread is the same).

Originally Posted by coolkid

what the hell is abuse anyway, i mean i wouldnt let anyone tell me that hitting the redline frequently constitutes abuse or throwing the car sideways and spinning wheels is definately not abuse. so can anyone here tell me what ford would think is abuse
i mean you didnt pay over 40k on a car that cant take the punishment that it should, all my mates cars have always been punished hard and are older than a new falcon with no problems so obviously it is ford fault

And what does that have to do with a new car and its warranty?

We have one side of the story here people, who knows what the real issue was, and we dont know the exact reason it was called abuse.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by Squalo

It sounds to me like you are an example of why others have so much trouble getting warranty claims through... perhaps you could elaborate further, with evidence?

Big assumption there. Ever owned a falcon ute with an LSD? Quite frustrating paying extra for a part that turns out to be plagued with troubles and is of inferior quality.

First had noisy pinion bearings, which is known and acknowledged by ford as being a design flaw thanks to el cheapo bearings. This is courtesy of the manufacturer and supplier - Dana. 2nd was a noisy crown wheel and pinion not meshing properly and bearings in the end as well. 3rd was broken spider gears thanks to a loose piece of metal getting caught in the teeth and snapping a gear.

The 3rd diff was replaced by a very reputable diff specialist in Geelong - PDR. It was originally to be a replacement center, but turned out to be an entire rear axle assembly. Had dramas because the dealer assessed the job, and got it approved for a new center with warranty and sub contracted it out. Phil at PDR pulled out the center and found the housing was all scored and axle seals wouldnt have lasted. So then it had to be re approved for an entire rear axle assembly. Warranty basically ran out while i was on his hoist waiting for approval and for the parts. Took 3 weeks to get it done.

First diff was a replacement center, second entire rear axle assembly, 3rd was another entire rear axle assembly. First 2 were cut and dry, no questions asked, common as. 3rd was a fight because it was broken spider gears from something inside letting go.

Was told by ford, and by Phil that the center is known for it's pathetic quality, premature failures are all too common, and they've been known to let go with as little as 3,000km on them, and one that let go at 3,000km was driven to golf by a retired bloke!




My options were, fight for the warranty on the 3rd, or pay 2.5k and have a custom center made that was up tp the task, or get a second hand center and wait for the revised updated center to come. I chose to claim on the warranty i was entitled to, and next time i'll but the updated center.


Within 2 weeks the LSD was hit and miss. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnt, and before you go jumping to more conclusions, i optioned the LSD because i'm a builder and it helps me get onto slippery sites and bit better for traction towing heavy trailers on dirt roads etc.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by coolkid

what the hell is abuse anyway, i mean i wouldnt let anyone tell me that hitting the redline frequently constitutes abuse or throwing the car sideways and spinning wheels is definately not abuse. so can anyone here tell me what ford would think is abuse
i mean you didnt pay over 40k on a car that cant take the punishment that it should, all my mates cars have always been punished hard and are older than a new falcon with no problems so obviously it is ford fault

Ford definately do class that as abuse.

I had an issue with the clamping force on my clutch not seeming as it should. Car had about 25,000km on it, if you revved to 3000rpm and dumped the clutch it would slip.
2 service managers and 1 mechanic all drove it and acknowledged that it wasnt what it should be, so it was put to the warranty manager, who liased with someone at Ford, who deemed that to be abuse and outside what they classify as normal driving conditions. My response was it is marketed as the sports model, not the retirment lawn bowls pack.

They do have to draw the line somewhere, and it's usually somewhere conservative, otherwise they'd go broke. Which is fair enough.

Look at snap on tools. They have a no questions asked, 3 generation warranty. Put a 4 foot length of pipe over your ratched handle to try and undo a welded on nut and snap your ratchet, they'll swap it no questions asked. But look at the price tag. They can afford to offer the service. If Ford had a no questions asked warranty service we'd be paying 50k for base model falcons.

[samftr]

would the 50k mean you wouldnt have to claim on the bloody warranty in the first place, as they wouldn't have to skimp on such things as paint and panel alignment, front rotors, bonnet latches, seat controls, seat mechanisms, cd players, window winders....
diffs...
etc?

[RavenLS1]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

Oh sorry i didnt realise new cars came down with 4500klms on them, how much did you pay for the NEW car?

You really are a smart one! he has done 4500km since new.

[red_hotxr6]

Sorry i thought he bought it 2nd hand, my sincerest apologies...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by coolkid

what the hell is abuse anyway, i mean i wouldnt let anyone tell me that hitting the redline frequently constitutes abuse or throwing the car sideways and spinning wheels is definately not abuse. so can anyone here tell me what ford would think is abuse
i mean you didnt pay over 40k on a car that cant take the punishment that it should, all my mates cars have always been punished hard and are older than a new falcon with no problems so obviously it is ford fault

What you are describing is deliberate abuse, and you would be ill advised to try and claim what constitutes your idea of normal driving. All tools, machinery etc is designed to do a specific job, cars are designed for transport. If you want to thrash the crap out of your car then you shouldn't be buying a large sedan designed to drive the way that most people drive (not ripping burnouts or repeatedly redlining). What you have described doing is akin to your car being stolen and is not considered "normal practice", therefore ford rightly will not warrant any claim you make. Try reading the foreword of the manual describing how to use your vehicle. Furthermore, what you are describing as "not abuse" is actually illegal on Australian roads; you'd have more chance of being the next pope than winning any claim against ford.

[coolkid]

so basically ford are marketing a car that has 245 kw just dont dare try to use it to its full potenial or theyll treat you like a criminal. i mean fair is fair if you were doing line locker burnouts then of course you should get told where to stick warranty but hitting a rev limiter (which is thre to cut in before damage occurs,not cause damage) is part of hard acceleration sometimes,particularly in the wet thru 1st gear can happen pretty easy.same thing with wheel spinning its not like foot is on brake. you are simply accelerating very hard,next theyll say chirping wheels when changing gears is abuse as well

[ltd]

That's the same as arguing that an RB211 turbofan can do 107%, so why not run it at that all the time. It becomes a durability issue, and as such pilots and companies are advised against doing it.
What redlining does is subject the engine to maximum stresses and design limits, which will only result in decreased durability. What you have described before will take a terrible toll on all parts of the cars driveline, and why you'd want to do that is beyond me. If you want a car that can sufficiently do that with durability, be prepared to pay a lot more for the car than 40k. Let's face it, ford know that the vast majority of their customers do not drive in this manner, that driving this way is not compatible wuth state and territory laws, and they also know that it does not make good business sense to produce a car that can do it particularly when it would cost three times as much to make. That is why peak power and peak torque is never at redline.

[coolkid]

mate im not talking of holding an engine at redline : thats just unexplainable, im just saying a motor should be able to be revved out when accelerating thru the gears ,not held at high revs just taken there and back when driving hard.
or would you suggest keeping 2000rpm away from limiter even when trying to drive flat out.
if this was about a fairmont or something i wouldnt make a deal of it, but the fact is its a perfomance car so i should be abe to be driven with perfomance in mind, i mean wats next hard braking not good for brakes so warranty void or taking corners too fast too much strain on suspension parts.
i know alot of these so called performance cars are driven by people who have never even used full throttle in their lives but that doesnt mean that is how they should be driven