investment property is it a good idea - Page 2

DoreSlamR · 10-04-2015, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Wasn't there a massive, massive thread about 4 or 5 years ago about investments and we had all these people from the fringe come around and go on about how a 30% drop in house values was imminent? And how that never happened? (Disregarding outliers).
/edit: just did a search, couldn't find it, must have been deleted

It happened in 2008

Simple6 · 10-04-2015, 07:38 PM

I feel like we've all been hearing for years about the imminent demise of the housing market and how the "bubble" will "pop" and prices will crash, so we should all hold off or at least be careful.

I just haven't seen it eventuate.

Mickey182 · 10-04-2015, 07:43 PM

Not sure where you are but this is what I know ,
pro.You can claim all the interest and all associated expenses from this property to reduce your tax.
Pro. Capital growth, houses generally double in 8-10 years.
Pro. Between rents and tax breaks you can pretty much cover the mortgage without putting your hand in your pocket.
Any suburb within 10 Klms of he city will always attract good rental and solid growth.
Cons. If in sydney land tax is a killer but you get $410,000 land threshold so you pay for anything above that.
Make sure you get references from potential tenants and look at landlords insurances, covers lost rent and damages.
Many people have built there wealth thru property investment, do your due diligence before purchasing.
Good luck mate

mr smith · 10-04-2015, 07:49 PM

Ask the ming town investors how things are going, Port Headland comes to mind. As long as you realise the game is rigged by govt policy and has nothing to do with supply and demand then you are going in with eyes open. And remember this policy can change overnight.

nuthin' fancy · 10-04-2015, 10:03 PM

Buy new but not off the plan.

Buy within 500m of a train station.

If you buy a property of 120 sq/m that earns 4% rental return or you buy a 60 sq/m property that returns 4% rental return, the 120 sq/m property will cost twice as much to renovate.

Make sure you have a cash buffer of at least three months' rent. If the tenant needs work done, it has to be done straight away.

Move slowly and with lots of knowledge, the more you know, the more comfortable you will be in the decision.

nuthin' fancy · 10-04-2015, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usernametaken

Have a read of this mate..

http://blog.australiaboomtobust.com/

Well respect Author.

Two things come as no surprise:

1. That you were the one the post a link to that load of rubbish, and
2. That it was published on 1 April

There will be no overall crash in Australia. Overheated markets (such as Moranbah) will have big adjustments because they rose to levels that made no sense. Things might slow and certain areas may have adjustments more severe than elsewhere but while the banks remain secure (we are highly regulated and there is no risk of bank failure among the big banks) all will proceed in a relatively orderly manner.

I mus say that we paid $415k for our home in 2004 in suburban Geelong, near Deakin and shops and services in a good court. I'd be surprised if we could get $520k today. A long way from doubling in 10 years but the neighbours are good.

Would I have been financially better off renting and have my money invested elsewhere? Yes!

Am I happy to have a good house in a good court? Yes!

**ebxr8240** · 11-04-2015, 01:35 AM

Depends on your income.. I was in a position to work plenty of hours overtime ..
In 82 I bought my home for 64k .. Owed 15k on it by 1995 so I bought a house out near Penrith for 130k .. The negative geared tax return I paid my place of residence off in 5 years.. Then 6 years after buying my fist rental ( 2001) I bought another in same area for 300k .. Both are rented out giving me a healthy income ..
I am retired now .. With my super and rents I'm way in front..
We as family have had money in shares .. We lost 150k in one but lucky it was bought out and now getting dividents etc.. Shares are back to where they should be .. Others sold off the shares for 20 % original value.. Jump to conclusions doesn't pay in the financial industry.. Either way it's a long term thing ..
You have to try and do something though .. Don't think more expensive areas will gain more.. They have already capitalised ... Work out rent per value of loan..what may be a crap place for you would possibly be a castle to someone else..another thing your super is tax free after you turn 60.. So don't totally ignow your super .. Trouble is govements could change these things ...

razbarb · 11-04-2015, 09:04 AM

I own one rental property and took a big risk by borrowing 110%! I even borrowed to pay the stamp duty! We did have a lot of equity in our home though. I didn't see any value in having a "deposit" for an investment property, every spare cent went into our mortgage before we bought an investment property.
My wife and I looked around a popular seaside holiday spot not far out from Melbourne. We looked for two years and were comprehensively outbid at every auction we attended.
In my experience, auctions are for wealthy people.
The dreaded silent auction was even worse, we were being outbid by miles.
We finally found and bought an old, small place that is close to the water and shops.
We are into our fourth year of ownership with steady rent and a problematic tennant at the moment. The rent always eventually gets paid however.
The major reason for me to buy an investment property was to achieve a personal goal of owning a beach house one day. I may never use this as a beach house, but I'm aiming to. I was very conscious of missing the boat as Hulk mentioned. In hindsight, If I waited another 6 months I would have saved maybe 40k. My crystal ball is always a bit foggy though and I don't trust advice from agents regarding property.
If I sold now, I would lose money. I'm doing the first ten years interest only because at the moment this helps me. I plan to retire in this home but things may change and if the poo hits the fan I'll sell my home and move down there. Not the best outcome, but it is a first world problem if you have an investment property.
What I have found is, having the investment property has helped me kick a little more into my mortgage through the tax benefits even though we contribute about 40% of the repayments from our own pocket.
No pain, no gain.
To answer your question, I think it's a good idea if you can afford it.
The lifestyle questions and implications are important. Good advice is paramount and professional advice is tax deductible.
There are more experienced people than me here with very wise words. If they're willing, pick their brains.

gcg2503 · 11-04-2015, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuthin' fancy

Buy within 500m of a train station.

^^^^^^This.

For a rental property, the closer to a train station the better.

**GasoLane** · 11-04-2015, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcg2503

For a rental property, the closer to a train station the better.

Only in the City, us country folk only get two trains a day, and one of them is at 02:00 !!

neptune blue · 11-04-2015, 11:22 AM

I have said this to many people . Property investment is a long term investment
7 to 10 years if you are looking to get a good return via capital gain. It also provides some good tax reductions which can be used to off set your existing mortgage on the home you live in

With regards to the market crashing , we have seen this happen before but what people forget is that it has always recovered. Besides this only affects you if you want to sell as cashed up investors want to buy when the market is down as they know it will always recover

You only have to look at historical data to see this is true

By keeping the investment long term it also provides you with an income in retirement with the bonus of the continuous increase in capital gain for doing nothing, you can sell off any time you want and do what ever you want with the money, maybe by an XY GT lol

In 1992 I sold the first house I ever bought a 12 sq 3 bedroom for $96,000 I paid $75,000 4 years earlier. Fast forward 25 years and thanks to capital gain I'm now living in a 50sq + home on a half an acre in suburban Melbourne worth well over million . I'm not a savy property investor, capital gain did all the work for me.

The only thing investors need to worry about is if the government change the ruling on negative gearing as that will negate the tax benefits

**FairmontGS** · 11-04-2015, 11:30 AM

You should have a balanced investment portfolio - all eggs in baskets etc. comes to mind.

1. The best return that you will ever get ATM is investing in your superannuation from as early an age as you can do it. Why pay $0.40+ in the $1 on your income when you can only pay $0.15? No brainer instant pay rise.. Add to that your fund only pays $0.15 on earnings AND gets franking credit from the major whose shares they hold. Add to that it's tax free on payout (but you can expect this to change). PLUS the power of the 8th wonder of the world - compound interest over 40 years.

2. Buy 2 bedroom units inner city (Sydney and Melbourne ONLY and not in the Docklands if Melbourne. Over availability of stock means you'll wait awhile for capital gains) and next to transport. Buy the worst property in the best location and stuff tenants in. Don't buy houses as investments - the grossed up return over the years including rent, depreciation, cap-ex is ahead.

3. Buy shares WITH YOUR OWN MONEY when you can afford it, a little a month. NEVER buy shares with borrowed money - it's a quick way to ruin in the event of a sudden turn down in the market as you will be forced to pay margin calls by selling your shares at a reduced price. As Warren Buffett says - "protect your capital". Only buy reputable top 50 stocks such as CBA, Woolworths, etc. Only buy stocks in businesses that people need - insurance, groceries, banking services, petrol. NEVER buy on a "hot tip" - the opportunity has already passed by the time you have heard about it.

Good luck.

Trevor 57 · 11-04-2015, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simple6

I feel like we've all been hearing for years about the imminent demise of the housing market and how the "bubble" will "pop" and prices will crash, so we should all hold off or at least be careful.

I just haven't seen it eventuate.

won't happen, there is always a demand for housing, we are letting in about 300,000 extra people a year, they have to live somewhere

neptune blue · 11-04-2015, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

You should have a balanced investment portfolio - all eggs in baskets etc. comes to mind.

1. The best return that you will ever get ATM is investing in your superannuation from as early an age as you can do it. Why pay $0.40+ in the $1 on your income when you can only pay $0.15? No brainer instant pay rise.. Add to that your fund only pays $0.15 on earnings AND gets franking credit from the major whose shares they hold. Add to that it's tax free on payout (but you can expect this to change). PLUS the power of the 8th wonder of the world - compound interest over 40 years.

2. Buy 2 bedroom units inner city (Sydney and Melbourne ONLY and not in the Docklands if Melbourne. Over availability of stock means you'll wait awhile for capital gains) and next to transport. Buy the worst property in the best location and stuff tenants in. Don't buy houses as investments - the grossed up return over the years including rent, depreciation, cap-ex is ahead.

3. Buy shares WITH YOUR OWN MONEY when you can afford it, a little a month. NEVER buy shares with borrowed money - it's a quick way to ruin in the event of a sudden turn down in the market as you will be forced to pay margin calls by selling your shares at a reduced price. As Warren Buffett says - "protect your capital". Only buy reputable top 50 stocks such as CBA, Woolworths, etc. Only buy stocks in businesses that people need - insurance, groceries, banking services, petrol. NEVER buy on a "hot tip" - the opportunity has already passed by the time you have heard about it.

Good luck.

I disagree regarding super, its a scam I've been in super for 20 years and I have a little over $200 K . This will be around $350k by the time I retire which means I'll be able to live for about 5 years after I retire then I won't be able to use electricity or gas as if I do I will starve to death.
If I used this money to by property back in 1994 I would have a very healthly
properly port folio worth 10 times what my super is worth and own most of the dwellings out right.

A mate of mine did exactly this and he just bought himself a winabago, paid cash for it $150k . Coz he had no where to put it he built himself a massive barn shed to house it as well as his 2 boats and a mustang and a couple of other toys he owns , all thanks to properly investment. I do agree that diversifying investments is ok but super only works if you earn $200 k plus per year . If your on $50 k per year forget it

Trevor 57 · 11-04-2015, 01:36 PM

people who are saying property investment is a bad thing are "short term, look at now" people, of course the market is down at the moment (for a whole range of reasons), but investing for the long term (in land) will give benefits, probably not as much as the last 10-15 year, but will certainly increase

**FairmontGS** · 11-04-2015, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neptune blue

I disagree regarding super, its a scam I've been in super for 20 years and I have a little over $200 K . This will be around $350k by the time I retire which means I'll be able to live for about 5 years after I retire then I won't be able to use electricity or gas as if I do I will starve to death.
If I used this money to by property back in 1994 I would have a very healthly
properly port folio worth 10 times what my super is worth and own most of the dwellings out right.

A mate of mine did exactly this and he just bought himself a winabago, paid cash for it $150k . Coz he had no where to put it he built himself a massive barn shed to house it as well as his 2 boats and a mustang and a couple of other toys he owns , all thanks to properly investment. I do agree that diversifying investments is ok but super only works if you earn $200 k plus per year . If your on $50 k per year forget it

Super does tend to polarise people - you either get interested and active in it or, like too many Australians, deride it which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

usernametaken · 11-04-2015, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuthin' fancy

Two things come as no surprise:

1. That you were the one the post a link to that load of rubbish, and
2. That it was published on 1 April

There will be no overall crash in Australia. Overheated markets (such as Moranbah) will have big adjustments because they rose to levels that made no sense. Things might slow and certain areas may have adjustments more severe than elsewhere but while the banks remain secure (we are highly regulated and there is no risk of bank failure among the big banks) all will proceed in a relatively orderly manner.

I mus say that we paid $415k for our home in 2004 in suburban Geelong, near Deakin and shops and services in a good court. I'd be surprised if we could get $520k today. A long way from doubling in 10 years but the neighbours are good.

Would I have been financially better off renting and have my money invested elsewhere? Yes!

Am I happy to have a good house in a good court? Yes!

This is the first time I have had anything to do with you on this forum.

1: At least I put up evidence to back 'why' I think that at this point in time an investment property isn't a good idea (that's what the OP want - opinions, isn't it?).

2: Instead of dismissing other's opinions, how about showing us some evidence to back up your blanket statements such as these corkers;

'There will be no overall crash in Australia.'

and

'there is no risk of bank failure among the big banks'

At least I provide links and charts to back up HOW I come to my conclusion- whereas you have not.

To say what you have with such definite conviction means you know something the rest of the world does not... the future.

I'd like to see your evidence of this please.

3: How about treating people with some respect. You are a moderator, you should know better than to antagonise others unprovoked on a forum.

Grow up.

nuthin' fancy · 11-04-2015, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usernametaken

This is the first time I have had anything to do with you on this forum.

1: At least I put up evidence to back 'why' I think that at this point in time an investment property isn't a good idea (that's what the OP want - opinions, isn't it?).

2: Instead of dismissing other's opinions, how about showing us some evidence to back up your blanket statements such as these corkers;

'There will be no overall crash in Australia.'

and

'there is no risk of bank failure among the big banks'

At least I provide links and charts to back up HOW I come to my conclusion- whereas you have not.

To say what you have with such definite conviction means you know something the rest of the world does not... the future.

I'd like to see your evidence of this please.

3: How about treating people with some respect. You are a moderator, you should know better than to antagonise others unprovoked on a forum.

Grow up.

For the record, I am a mortgage broker and I have worked lending money for most of my employed life. I have completed $500 credit card applications and have funded $100m developments. I have also spent time in debt recovery in the difficult position of explaining what signatures on documents mean.

Not sure why I have to grow up just because I challenge your view of things. Don't presume to tell me what I know and don't. I was simply critical of your posting a link to an article quoted by you as a 'well respect (sic) Author' published on April Fool's Day by someone I see as an alarmist fool.

I checked your posts in the area over property over the years and your view of the market is not as positive as many.

He claims a number of things in his article:

The first bet was that China would willingly consume every ounce of iron ore Australian miners could dig from the ground and pay a premium.

He ignores the potential of India. I can't know whether his suggestions about how much iron ore China can consume is accurate but China's demand, even at 7% annual growth, will require a great deal of what we have to dig up.

I do agree that the country will rue not having achieved more from the mining boom we have just had.

...as a signal to the end of the Chinese property boom...

The Chinese don't buy here for return, they buy for the security of our legal system that allows them to retain and to pass property on to their children. Increasingly, our Governments will place additional levies on their acquisitions.

The 2nd bet this nation made was to leverage Australian households through the roof and create an economic model that shares the same risk profile as a Ponzi scheme in order to assure that house prices only rise creating never-ending capital gain to those who took the most abnormal sums of risk to invest in a zero-sum game.

Population growth in Australia is split evenly between natural increase and immigration. Most of the immigration to Australia is legal and encouraged because the immigrants are skilled workers who commence an economic contribution straight away. Ponzi schemes only fail when new invstors can't be found. I agree that our property is expensive, but the expense is sustainable.

House prices have already ‘crashed’…yes ‘crashed’, across a plethora of our mining towns. These real estate markets were ‘property bubbles’, yes ‘property bubbles’ that have already ‘burst’. So for anyone to suggest there are no housing bubbles in Australia is nonsense.

Nice to see correct use of 'plethora' which is an adverse abundence. Anyone who knows anything about investment would not buy an asset that is affected by a particular market condition (local mining activity) where that asset has increased in value significantly outside market norms just prior to their purchase. There have been localised bubbles, but they do not represent any sort of norm or any activity that will affect the bulk of the market. With any client I have in the mining industry, I have always encouraged them to invest away from mining.

at least one of the big four banks will either go bust, be bailed out, or nationalized before the end of 2017.

Easy to claim. Our banking environment is highly regulated so banks have legislative limits on what they can do. Have a look at how the NCCP (Reponsible lending legislation) rightly killed low (or no) doc loans. While our banks are highly geared, they earn their money from a very large base of transactions and that creates a secure busines in any environment. Banks offset risk through mortgage insurance for low deposit residential loans, the requirement to deposit funds with the RBA and the personal responsibility to debt that exists in Australia (but not in the US and that is why the difficulties in the US are no comparison for the Australian market). Even if property values were to slump acorss the board, ⅓ of propertties are owner occupied with debt, ⅓ are non owner ocuied with debt and ⅓ don't have debt (fractions are rough). In the event there was a mass failure in the owner occupied market, investors would step in to fill he gap.

There were panicked sales of St George to Westpac and Bankwest to CBA in the late noughties, but these were knee-jerk reactions by the Government to perceived problems that had not yet come to the fore. AGC's lending in the 1980s brought Westpac very close to failure in the 1990s but these issues are far better controlled these days. The failures of Pyramid, Estate Mortgage and the like were simply the failure of badly run and porly regulated businesses.

I do think there is potential for the Future Fund to acquire one of the banks, though.

How about treating people with some respect. You are a moderator, you should know better than to antagonise others unprovoked on a forum.

Grow up.

Was I disresctful to you? I didn't think so and I apologise if I was. I was critical of a nonsense article you linked to and made an observation that is was consistent with views you have posted earlier.

Is that sufficient clarification for you?

usernametaken · 11-04-2015, 03:35 PM

Yes, It came across as you having a stab at me - how else could it?

You apologised - thanks.

Tear the link to shreds, not my site, but respect others opinions too.

Good luck with your future.

mr smith · 11-04-2015, 03:58 PM

Forget Ford vs Holden, religion or football teams. Nothing gets Aussies more passionate than questioning ones belief about the housing market...

**ebxr8240** · 11-04-2015, 09:16 PM

Be carefull of the near the city advice .. This means big mortgage for return .. Especially if your just starting off. Even Parramata - Penrith way your looking at $450/ $500k for a house..
Buying a beach poperty ??? Hmmm been there in the past..
Always purchase where there's work, employment .. A beach suburb in winter doesn't draw too many renters or income overall, except maybe single people ? ! You would be better off buying in the mainstream then selling on retirement ..
My bet is you'd be 40% better off...
Buying your first home takes 7 to 10 years before mortgage and your income catch up .. If starting from low base deposit ... Not just invetement property !!

Havoc · 11-04-2015, 10:51 PM

by all means buy investment property's, negative gear and all the other business its good for you personally however the rest of the country is paying the price for it housing wont keep rising forever, Its all very good for us cashed up Aussies and Chinese to float the market but its the kids future were ****ing down the toilets when they cant afford to own a home in there own country. Not having a dig at the op just the state of affairs where the government wants to let people borrow super to buy housing rather then fixing any of the real issues while everybody else gets ******.

Dash_XR · 12-04-2015, 07:36 AM

The world economy is dependent on growth so if for whatever reason property value stops rising permanently then the whole global economy is crashing anyway so everyone is in the same boat. If that doesn't happen though only the fear mongers and so called "experts" that were to scared to do anything now will be the ones wishing they had.

Yellow_Festiva · 12-04-2015, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

The world economy is dependent on growth so if for whatever reason property value stops rising permanently then the whole global economy is crashing anyway so everyone is in the same boat. If that doesn't happen though only the fear mongers and so called "experts" that were to scared to do anything now will be the ones wishing they had.

To add to that, we have what most want. Great way of life, clean air, space, stable government and abundant opportunity.

None of this will change any time soon IMO. If everything went belly up we would still be an attractive place for cashed up foreigners to come spend their money. Happening now and will continue to happen.

Just do SOMETHING with your money, be it property, term deposits whatever. Even putting it into an at call account gaining 3.5%pa and adding a grand a month will pay off soon enough.

I like property and dislike shares, I have family that are the opposite and we have both done well. If you want low risk and low input just put your spare dosh in a bank and water it constantly.

Many people have worked their whole life and are still working after retirement because they didn't do something with their spare cash when they could. The earlier you start, the sooner you can comfortably finish!

The pension is a pittance and it will keep going down, at the same time we are healthier and living longer...

**ebxr8240** · 12-04-2015, 11:51 PM

Btw my younger brother lives in Naperville nr Chicago US . He has rentals there.. UM?? Due to mis management of banks etc over there.. He is just recovering from 2008 prices.. What saved him, rents went up big time ..
Yep Yellow Festiva have friends in late 60's and have no financial planing whatsoever ! Some don't even have a house !! I'm 61 myself .. Seems only yesterday I went for my first job interview.. It gives you incentive to work.. If your the sort of person who is happy to work 40 hours a week and don't want to do some accountancy and home maintenance it's not for you ... I worked extra hours knowing I'll get the extra tax back.. If it wasnt for landlords and negative gearing ? The public housing could NOT supply enough housing .. They can't keep up now ..

GT0132 · 13-04-2015, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Be carefull of the near the city advice .. This means big mortgage for return .. Especially if your just starting off. Even Parramata - Penrith way your looking at $450/ $500k for a house..
Buying a beach poperty ??? Hmmm been there in the past..
Always purchase where there's work, employment .. A beach suburb in winter doesn't draw too many renters or income overall, except maybe single people ? ! You would be better off buying in the mainstream then selling on retirement ..
My bet is you'd be 40% better off...
Buying your first home takes 7 to 10 years before mortgage and your income catch up .. If starting from low base deposit ... Not just invetement property !!

Reminds me of my first property investment in Maroochydore, QLD in late 80's. Main attraction was being by the sea but ,as EBXR says, only good for holiday rentals in summer or school holidays. Only had it for 2 years and I think I broke even. Interest rates at the time , a whopping 16.5% !.

As to abolition of negative gearing, if it happens it will only be in relation to property purchase going forward . I doubt any government would be silly enough to make this a retrospective change.

GASWAGON · 13-04-2015, 09:02 AM

It was Dave 289 that started the old 'Oz housing bubble thread'.

I have been waiting for about 8 years since that thread for the RE market to crash and all that has happened is prices have continued to rise.

As far as I can tell as long as the RBA keep lowering interest rates or at least keep them low its a great time to take on a mortgage and pay it down as soon as possible.

The next few years will be interesting because the market especially Sydney has almost topped out so hopefully prices flatten out a bit and let wages and employement figures catch up.

There has been talk about the government making some changes to negative gearing but i dont know if thats really going to happen.

xxx000 · 13-04-2015, 09:33 AM

Imho it's a bad time to take on a mortgage
rates are low, prices rising rapidly
a correction like 1987 is almost inevitable leaving people with huge repayments on something worth less than they paid

Trevor 57 · 13-04-2015, 09:36 AM

I am glad it is "your opinion"

Syndrome · 13-04-2015, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tregs

Hi guys I'm looking at buying my first investment property so i want to hear from everyone that has investment property's. What are the pro's and con's? unforeseen obstacles? What advice are you willing to part with?

I suggest you go to the following website:

www.australianpropertyforum.com

Dave289 started a similar thread to this one on AFF many years ago which ended becoming very lengthy and the posts were very heated. In the end Dave289 was banned from this forum and the thread was locked and deleted.

In before the lock.