Not worth the risk...

[4Vman]

This is the thing i can't get past, i had a bad run of loosing close friends there for a while, not one was over 24, not one of their deaths was an "accident" each one was a direct result of excessive speed and dangerous driving... i.e stupidity.
People rarely die on our roads from "accidents" they die from acts of stupidity.

[Whitey-AMG]

There is no easy answer.........most of us think / act like we're invincible when we get behind the wheel............most of us are guilty of feeling like that......."I can control it.........I know what I'm doing..........I'm sure its safe............there's no other cars on the road "...........

More sad days ahead for everyone involved..........It's a reality that these incidents and their effects........NEVER GO AWAY.

[FGII-XR6]

I feel the sentence was fair given the bad driving history. he did after all take a life with his actions . I just hope he leaves prison with more respect for the road rules.
No I'm not perfect and in my youth was an idiot and was lucky but except under the most exceptional of circumstances if your driving causes loss of life or serious injury you can and should expect a prison term.
I wish your friend well and hope his time passes without serious incident but most of all I hope ( as i have said above ) he leaves prison with a respect for road safety that was obviously lacking at the time he killed his friend

[icedfrog]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Personally id like to see people who are caught and convicted of offenses of "gross vehicular miss-conduct" such as 30+ over, drink driving, racing, burnouts etc have to serve community service time attending fatal accidents and the morgue... or attend with a member of the police to deliver the bad news to a family..
Maybe that might shock a bit of sence into a few people.

I think that is a good punishment right there.

Need to emphasize that this should happen after someone does something silly like 30k's over or a drag race.

Hopefully, before something worse happens.

We all do grow up though. Some quicker than others. Im 24 and in the last 12 months i've changed my driving habits severly.

When i see someone doing just a little over like i used to, it ****es me off.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Next time you're thinking of racing someone or doing something stupid in a car reflect on this case..
I'll preface it by saying i know the offender personally, he's a decent, mild mannered shy young man who's made some very poor decisions behind the wheel of a car, but id call him a friend.
I make no excuses for him, this case has been tried 3 times over a period of 6 years due to errors and availability of people involved.. its taken a massive toll on everyone from the victims family, to him and his family due to the length of time its dragged out...
I hope people see the ease with which you can ruin not only other people's lives but your own, and the living nightmare that's taken 6 years to unfold....

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html

I think the general public would understand what transpired and would feel empathy for your friend. Young blokes do act the goat and many of us have had very close shaves because of it. The prosecuting police obviously dug their heels on this one, probably out of spite and a fancy that it might send a message to the great unwashed.

Of course it will have no effect on teenagers who would view the sentence as a penalty for playing the game and losing. Most of them don't read the papers nor watch the news, so the majority of them won't be aware of it either.

I know it sounds callous, but sometimes being sent to jail can take away some of the internalised guilt, not so much paying a debt to society but a partial payment in kind to the conscience for being careless with someone's life.

Personally I think the sentence is far too severe and will only open up scars for the aggrieved family in three years time. During that three years that same family will have time to pause and reflect that their son chose this bloke as a best friend and that young blokes being what they are he maybe cajoled a certain amount of the driver stupidity.

[Paddyboy]

What the Government should do is go into schools and have an assembly with 16-18 yr olds or even younger and show pictures of accidents and have family directly related to losing someone in an accident talk to the kids in the schools about how poor decisions can effect their whole future!
I think todays generation of teenagers are very selfish in their thinking, all they think about is now, not the future, everything is about fun right here right now, screw the consequences coz the chances of it happening to me are so slim that its not even worth thinking about. thats what they think if they think at all.

I dont know what its like in other states but in Vic they have new P plate laws prohibiting V8's and turbo and high performance 6's. And for their first year they can only have 1 passenger in the car. The thing is I dont think the cops are enforcing this law very well as I see P platers everywhere in my area driving wrx's, jap imports (turbos), and there's 2 p platers in my street who both own and drive ba xr6 turbos! Surely a cop can tell if a car is turbo or not and ban these guys from driving them.

[FPV GT40]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

People rarely die on our roads from "accidents" they die from acts of stupidity.

Exactly right 10/10 for that one.....people call things accidents when they are not accidents at all, they are recless acts and careless stupidity most of the time.....

Running up the back of another car is NOT an accident, it is careless and recless driving, not doing your duty as a driver, and not taking due care.

Most so called accident happen because people are doing things other than drive....they are playing with car stereos, mobile phones, I pods, smoking, eating, applying make up....etc etc while driving. So the result of that can not be considered to be an accident...

While some accidents even occur as a result of people committing illegal acts at the time, such as street racing, drink driving, speeding, Driving DUI, etc etc etc, these people in my opinion should be criminally charged, convicted and locked up.

[Laminge]

We never learn at that age, some of us might have had, I didnt.

I dont know the solution to tell you the truth, but I strongly believe that first thing is to make available more resources like heathcote park.

I feel for your mate, even thought it rests on his shoulders I dare say that there is a line of people behind him that share the responsibility for the end result.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Laminge

We never learn at that age, some of us might have had, I didnt.

I dont know the solution to tell you the truth, but I strongly believe that first thing is to make available more resources like heathcote park.

I feel for your mate, even thought it rests on his shoulders I dare say that there is a line of people behind him that share the responsibility for the end result.

Yep.. i too did some stupid things when i was young too, i, like allot of people probably made 25 by luck..
That said i can still vividly remember demanding a friend pull his car over to let me out on a few occasions because i felt it was getting out of control.. i used to get stirred about doing that too..
On the the last particular occasion i did it he lost control and hit a poll about 200m up the road from where i got out after doing a burnout through a roundabout... helping and watching another mate who was in the back seat get taken to hospital smashed up in a coma will haunt me forever.

[icedfrog]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep.. i too did some stupid things when i was young too, i, like allot of people probably made 25 by luck..
That said i can still vividly remember demanding a friend pull his car over to let me out on a few occasions because i felt it was getting out of control.. i used to get stirred about doing that too..
On the the last particular occasion i did it he lost control and hit a poll about 200m up the road from where i got out after doing a burnout through a roundabout... helping and watching another mate who was in the back seat get taken to hospital smashed up in a coma will haunt me forever.

Its also got a lot to do with who you hang out with.

I suppose you could say i was a bit of a loner. I preferred going off on my own down a back road late at night and mess up. The only person i could hurt was myself.

Come to think of it, my mates really arent or werent stupid or dangerous on the roads that i can recall.

I have only ever gotten out of a car once for fear that something stupid would happen. I got out and started walking. That person got the message and hasn't driven in a manner since.

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by Laminge

We never learn at that age, some of us might have had, I didnt.

I dont know the solution to tell you the truth, but I strongly believe that first thing is to make available more resources like heathcote park.

I feel for your mate, even thought it rests on his shoulders I dare say that there is a line of people behind him that share the responsibility for the end result.

I have to agree with this post 100%.
I certainly can not get on my moral high horse on this subject as others have. And peer pressure is as much involved in this type of behaviour as any other teenage behaviour that we see as stupid in our wiser years.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by icedfrog

Its also got a lot to do with who you hang out with.

I suppose you could say i was a bit of a loner. I preferred going off on my own down a back road late at night and mess up. The only person i could hurt was myself.

Come to think of it, my mates really arent or werent stupid or dangerous on the roads that i can recall.

I have only ever gotten out of a car once for fear that something stupid would happen. I got out and started walking. That person got the message and hasn't driven in a manner since.

The people who i grew up with and hung out with were all honestly decent genuinely nice people, doing the wrong thing in a car is not the exclusive domain of "bad evil people".. We all just loved cars, and enjoyed driving them, albeit at times a little too wildly.
I guess the point ive tried to make here is "good" people stuff up too, but that doesn't excuse them, nor should they be treated leniently just because they're "nice".
Which is the case for Brad, the guy jailed, who if you know him doesn't fit the stereo type for a "hoon"..
I guess it means just because you're a decent person doesn't make you immune to making BAD life altering mistakes... although i will concede smart people rarely take big risks..

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I guess it means just because you're a decent person doesn't make you immune to making BAD life altering mistakes...

So very true. Well said.

[FPV GT40]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Which is the case for Brad, the guy jailed, who if you know him doesn't fit the stereo type for a "hoon"..
..

What is the stereo type of a Hoon???

He lost his licence for street raching then went ahead and done it again and killed someone in the process.....he is the poster boy for hooning...

Not sure what a hoon is to be 100% honest, I have been called a hoon because I drive modded performance V8's and have done so for 20 years while most of my mates drive stockers and other crap. My missus recons I drive too fast yet I have all my points, she recons I drive too close to other cars yet I have never run into another car???? She has, but she insists that she is a safer driver :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

What is the stereo type of a Hoon???

He lost his licence for street raching then went ahead and done it again and killed someone in the process.....he is the poster boy for hooning...

Not sure what a hoon is to be 100% honest, I have been called a hoon because I drive modded performance V8's and have done so for 20 years while most of my mates drive stockers and other crap. My missus recons I drive too fast yet I have all my points, she recons I drive too close to other cars yet I have never run into another car???? She has, but she insists that she is a safer driver :

I honestly don't know what a "hoon" is either, but i guess Brad fits the "stereotype" that's portrayed by his actions, not his persona.....

[fiery]

I have been talking to a few of my sons friends about this thread (all around the 19 mark), one admitted to me today that it wasn't the fear of being caught or the fear he might mess up and hurt or worse still kill someone.
It was the sheer fear I put into him after I found out what he was doing one afternoon. He hid from me for quite a few months as he knew I meant what I had said to him.

One of the other mates said that this particular kid never drove like a tool ever again with any of the guys in the car after I went off.

Maybe some of these kids need the wrath (read as, fear) of a mother down their throat before something stupid happens.
Gawd knows if this would work but it appears sometimes the law and/or the consequences of their stupidity unfortunately don't seem to be deterring and/or working.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

What is the stereo type of a Hoon???

Well that depends on what giant windscreen stickers are available.

Usually Pioneer, Alpine or Kenwood although there is a strange green alien brand starting to appear lately.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well that depends on what giant windscreen stickers are available.

Usually Pioneer, Alpine or Kenwood although there is a strange green alien brand starting to appear lately.

Maybe the DB rating of your "fully sic" sub?

[FPV GT40]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Brad fits the "stereotype" that's portrayed by his actions, not his persona.....

I think you are right....as it is the actions not the person, even the mild mannered accountant can be a hoon..some people change when they get behind the wheel of a car and do things they normally would not do I guess....

I know people that are sales executives, managers and even doctors and school teachers, but on week ends they get out and ride a Harley and act like outlaw bikers in some country town pub and love it, doing things they would normally never do..

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

I think you are right....as it is the actions not the person, even the mild mannered accountant can be a hoon..some people change when they get behind the wheel of a car and do things they normally would not do I guess....

I know people that are sales executives, managers and even doctors and school teachers, but on week ends they get out and ride a Harley and act like outlaw bikers in some country town pub and love it, doing things they would normally never do..

Very true, of coarse there are a small number of people who "are it" and "live it" as well so to speak.... i think Port Pirie has a couple of prime examples....

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well that depends on what giant windscreen stickers are available.

Usually Pioneer, Alpine or Kenwood although there is a strange green alien brand starting to appear lately.

[Rob's 76 Effy]

Even though it sad what has happen, i think it's fair and just with the sentence he got, a life was lost through shear stupidity, if you cant do the time dont do the crime, i hope other ppl read the item and wake up to themselves, maybe even longer jail terms might be the order of the day, that fleeting moment of self gratifiction can ruin so many lives, the road is there for all not just the few

[Daymoe]

You can tell us anything, at school we've had many of these type of information nights, but even showing us these things or giving us huge lectures doesn't really send the message to tell you the truth, it sounds cold and disgusting, but its true. Its just a free bludge to get out of a boring class to most people. We had one of those days earlier this year for all us year 11s, 75 people took the day off while the rest of us just screwed around while the uni people were trying to show us stuff.

The only chance of getting someone my age to stop being a hoon is to involve them in a serious accident, because honestly, they won't give two poo's about what you show them or tell them unless it affects them.

[redxm]

Anyone who has been involved in the cleanup of a fatal accident will tell you that the smell of death is something you wont ever forget. Some of these kids need to be shown the aftermath of a fatal prang. I dont know whether it would make them rethink their actions or not, but if it saves even one life then it has been a good thing.
Yep Ive done a few dumb things from time to time, but unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I suffer from anxiety. Now the thing about that is constantly worrying. I will drive along and all of a sudden I will think, this car up here might stop suddenly and im too close, or what happens if the car coming the other way crosses lanes at me. etc etc etc. It is a hard thing to live with at times but Im pretty sure Ive avoided a few situations because of it.
So what Im trying to say is these kids just do not think of what the consequences of their actions will be. Its a bit like a goldfish, 3 second attention span..

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Paddyboy

I do believe that to help though, the courts, judges have to get real strong on these types of cases and make examples of the guys on the roads making these mistakes.

It wont work on people, they still have that invincible and I it wont happen to me attitude. Jail won't effect others.

Maybe 4Vman has an idea in offenders seeing and working with people that have been effected. If it saves one life then it is worth it.

As for hoon sterotype well there isn't any. Plenty of hoons take on different forms. People seem to change in their automobiles (there was a 50's cartoon that actually had a joke about this).

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by vztrt

It wont work on people, they still have that invincible and I it wont happen to me attitude. Jail won't effect others.

Maybe 4Vman has an idea in offenders seeing and working with people that have been effected. If it saves one life then it is worth it.

As for hoon sterotype well there isn't any. Plenty of hoons take on different forms. People seem to change in their automobiles (there was a 50's cartoon that actually had a joke about this).

Actually you just reminded me of another idea i had, serving community service hrs in a TAC rehabilitation facility.
Ive been through one before and they're frightening

[geckoGT]

As most of you know I am normally pretty opinionated on this type of subject, mainly due to the line of work I am in (I have to clean up the mess, give bad news to relatives and see the trauma).

Most of what I would normally say has already been said so I think I will leave that there.

One thing I will say, I understand he is a friend of a member and that member believes he is a really nice person, which I do not doubt he is. I do not believe for one fleeting moment that regarding this topic he has only made a couple of bad choices. Most people that get caught street racing, have done it before. This guy has now been caught driving dangerously twice, I bet there were many more occasions.

As for what to do. It appears that jail is not a deterrent, although I agree with jail time, completely. Fines don't work, look on this a forum for example, how many complain about the cost without mentioning "I had better slow down then". Confiscating cars does not work but it is a good start.

I like some of the ideas others have had, particularly exposing offenders to the outcomes.

It could work something like this. An offender is given a pager that can be activated if there is a fatal within a reasonable distance from their residence, if they do not appear at the scene within a set time period, they get jail time.

When they arrive they have to survey the scene, view the injuries on the deceased and assist with any functions the police require (including cleaning up body parts, fluids etc). They then have to be present for the investigation phase and record the police findings regading the accident.

Following this they have to be present for the autopsy and record the findings of the coroner.

Finally they have to write a 2000 word report on the accident, the feelings about it all and lessons they have learnt, which they then have to send to 50 of their friends and relatives. They also have to do a 10 min presentation using photos and diagrams on all aspects of the accident and present it to regular meetings of other offenders. These meeting could occur once a month and all offender must attend until they have recieved a call up for a fatal and done their own case study.

Additionally they all have to do 500 hours of community service in a brain injury, spinal injury or other type of relevent unit.

Of course this would never happen because the public out cry at our young being exposed to this would be huge, no doubt they would require counselling after. I understand this but think of it like this, at every stage there is someone that has to deal with it, time and time again, we survive. I will tell you though that once they have slipped on brain matter on the road, they will never forget it.

[TE50pilot]

Why don't we try a novel idea.
Start from an early age say 5-6yrs old and have one lesson a week on road rules and traffic offences at school. Similar to the religous lessons you may have got. (old fart here). Start teaching kids from an early age what right and wrong is on the roads. You don't have to show gory pictures and the like and you certainly don't have to take them to road side fatalities. In time you will create better drivers or should I say drivers with better attitudes and knowledge.
You will notice I have given up on the teens and early twenties because they know it all now so you can't teach them. You wont scare the majority of these either with morgues and crash sites unless it's a loved one involved. So I will let Darwin's theory deal with them.
By teaching the younger ones it may help in slowing mum and dad or even older siblings down because they will say things like "we got taught that speeding is wrong" or "what you did is not right "etc and kids always have the happy knack of saying things that make you think. The younger you teach the better they learn and it becomes a habit.
We teach our kids how to do maths, english etc and their rights but we don't teach them properly about the things that if not controlled can kill us. Why? Because it is not suitable subject for kids. But sometimes you say to yourself if only I had taught them that it may have made a difference. Kids are not born or with bad attitudes it is something learned and taught along lifes road.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by TE50pilot

Why don't we try a novel idea.
Start from an early age say 5-6yrs old and have one lesson a week on road rules and traffic offences at school. Similar to the religous lessons you may have got. (old fart here). Start teaching kids from an early age what right and wrong is on the roads. You don't have to show gory pictures and the like and you certainly don't have to take them to road side fatalities. In time you will create better drivers or should I say drivers with better attitudes and knowledge.
You will notice I have given up on the teens and early twenties because they know it all now so you can't teach them. You wont scare the majority of these either with morgues and crash sites unless it's a loved one involved. So I will let Darwin's theory deal with them.
By teaching the younger ones it may help in slowing mum and dad or even older siblings down because they will say things like "we got taught that speeding is wrong" or "what you did is not right "etc and kids always have the happy knack of saying things that make you think. The younger you teach the better they learn and it becomes a habit.
We teach our kids how to do maths, english etc and their rights but we don't teach them properly about the things that if not controlled can kill us. Why? Because it is not suitable subject for kids. But sometimes you say to yourself if only I had taught them that it may have made a difference. Kids are not born or with bad attitudes it is something learned and taught along lifes road.

So most of that inforamtion can be purposefully ignored in the later years like all that information on safe sex, drugs, smoking, alcohol etc. Nice idea and well worth trying but once they develop their dislike for authority, not going to help.

I actually don't think what I said earlier is the answer, maybe a less brutal exposure to the outcomes of reckless driving will help. I do believe as with many problems, a multi faceted approach is the key.

I just wish sometimes that these morons could see the results of like stupidity before they do it.

[mik]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Personally id like to see people who are caught and convicted of offenses of "gross vehicular miss-conduct" such as 30+ over, drink driving, racing, burnouts etc have to serve community service time attending fatal accidents and the morgue... or attend with a member of the police to deliver the bad news to a family..
Maybe that might shock a bit of sence into a few people.

that is brilliant ..........but there`s one thing missing, a trip to the big house to where your gunna end up if the judge puts you there, year`s ago i worked for a courier, one of my drops was HM Prison Pentridge Coburg ,they opened up the big steel door a heap of big gaurds at the entrance, it sent a chill through me i was there about 1 minute, a tour through general population in one of these type of facility`s would also be an education imo.