Best and worst car brands

[Pies1]

Originally Posted by ltd

100% agreed. Plus the offices of this paper are in Surrey Hills and is just a leisurely 10 minute drive to Bondi in the (I'm a multi millionaire with a $55,000) 318.
Eastern Sydney ******* are the worst kind because they actually believe people care what they think, and they represent the whole of the "Versace wannabe culture".
I got in to a heated arguement in December 2001 with a poof and his friends at a cafe on campbell parade in Bondi beach when I was waiting for a certain American trash show host celebrity. I was driving a stretched black AU2 at the time, here is how the conversation went.

poof: get that shitbox ford out of there.
Me: What did you say?
poof: get that shitbox ford out of there; no fords are allowed to park here.
Me: What, do you want me to slap you in front of your girlfriends? This car costs 150 grand new, what do you drive a 3 year old 318?
poof: yeah so what.
Me: the shitty, 14 grand poormans BMW, based on a 20 year old floorpan that buckles whenever taken over a speed hump too hard, and has a massively powerful 4 cylinder engine?
poof: It doesn't buckle
Me: Then drive it over a speed hump at 50k's then.
poof: No
Me: because you're worried it will buckle
poof: No I'm not.
Me: Yes you are
poof: How do you know, I've never heard of it before.
Me: I work in the car industry, you hear things, you see things, and you see the results. BMW's, are one of the cheapest, slapped together China built pieces of crap out there.

By this stage his attitude had changed from being cocky to being a little worried. I proffered that he check it out on the web and he'll see examples of it. He then started the usual crap of; "I don't like fords but yours is really nice".

Anyways, I own an S class (result of a huge contract and a large profit in one financial year, needed to find a way to reduce tax liability) and can tell you that it has had the stupidest stuff ups, and if there is an intermittent fault, you can forget about it being found for the first 6 visits. The best way I can summarise the difference between ford/holden and mercedes/bmw service is;
Ford/Holden will tell you they couldn't find the problem
Mercedes/BMW tell you that the problem wouldn't show up, in a big poofy emo way.

Gee, your all class pal!

[banarcus]

Nothing wrong with what ltd said mate, what would you say if a eastern suburbs poof with a 318 told you you weren't allowed to park somewhere because you 'can't' when he is in front of his sneering mates. Some people just ask to be taken down to size!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

German cars are over-rated. Remember, the Commodore is one. BMWs are made in South Africa and Mercedes in USA, You pay for the badge and $1000 a go for an oil change. 20 years ago I used to think anyone who said they had their car "serviced" was a ****er, now I am one myself.

The Commodore is about as German as Ernie Dingo.

The VB-VZ were based on an Opel body, with outsourced engines and gearboxes. The VZ had a Cadillac engine built in Melbourne for the V6, and a fully imported Chevrolet V8. With GM US gearboxes. Assembled in Australia.

Originally Posted by uranium_death

We have a VTII. We paid 26.5k for it brand new (runout).
Compare the price of the equivalent BMW with a VTII.
When you pay a shitload more for imported cars compared to the lower prices of Australian cars, you cannot expect superior quality.

People expect to buy gold with peanuts. The world doesn't work like that.

Anyway, if you were asked "what car would you like to drive", the majority of people would choose more cars that aren't as common as our Commodes and Falcons, such as Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Maserati etc.

Perception as I said is NOT fact.

I've ridden in a Mercedes C180 and I reckon it was the most uncomfortable, overrated piece of shit ever. The seats were awful, interior was tacky and the motor was a lawnmower. Yet, it costs 50-60 thousand dollars.
Compare to an Australian built car where the base model costs 30-36 thousand. Larger, more powerful, more comfortable.

Yes, and the C180 should not cost what it does. The E320, well, E350 now, is the taxi of Germany. And that car costs $129,000 here. It's comparable to a Falcon XT, where it sits on the ladder. It is not the C180's fault that it is ultra expensive due to Australia's many taxes which overinflate any imported car's price.

2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, US Base Price = $29,200

2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, AUS Base Price = $55,890

They miss out on our funky taxes. Hmmm.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by ltd

I also agree with the comments about the A class (Mercedes), absolute bucket of shit.

Apt - I would describe the body design as toilet brush holder.

Consumer surveys like Powers and Top gear put German cars in perspective. For instance see Mercs position at: http://www.topgear.com/content/featu...ries/01/3.html

Good designs still but the quality manufacture of German cars is often found in countries other than Germany which is having its structural problems like other aging western industrial leaders. Not that this is promoted in advertising. For example I wonder how many Touareg and Cayenne owners would guess that their cars are made in Czech and Slovak Republics? A bit like Holden promoting its increasingly un-Australian cars as Australian!

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Pies1

Gee, your all class pal!

Hey, thanks for your incredibly valuable input.
Luckily I'm fortuitous enough to have people like yourself illustrate a new perspective in order to keep a situation of which you have no knowledge of balanced.
God bless your heart and keep up the good work. _2:

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The Commodore is about as German as Ernie Dingo.

The VB-VZ were based on an Opel body, with outsourced engines and gearboxes. The VZ had a Cadillac engine built in Melbourne for the V6, and a fully imported Chevrolet V8. With GM US gearboxes. Assembled in Australia.



Yes, and the C180 should not cost what it does. The E320, well, E350 now, is the taxi of Germany. And that car costs $129,000 here. It's comparable to a Falcon XT, where it sits on the ladder. It is not the C180's fault that it is ultra expensive due to Australia's many taxes which overinflate any imported car's price.

2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, US Base Price = $29,200
2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, AUS Base Price = $55,890

They miss out on our funky taxes. Hmmm.

Maybe not the latest model, buy there are a hell of a lot of VN lookallikes driving around europe, and the top of the line model, the Senator is 2.8L

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The Commodore is about as German as Ernie Dingo.

The VB-VZ were based on an Opel body, with outsourced engines and gearboxes. The VZ had a Cadillac engine built in Melbourne for the V6, and a fully imported Chevrolet V8. With GM US gearboxes. Assembled in Australia.



Yes, and the C180 should not cost what it does. The E320, well, E350 now, is the taxi of Germany. And that car costs $129,000 here. It's comparable to a Falcon XT, where it sits on the ladder. It is not the C180's fault that it is ultra expensive due to Australia's many taxes which overinflate any imported car's price.

2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, US Base Price = $29,200
2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, AUS Base Price = $55,890

They miss out on our funky taxes. Hmmm.

Maybe not the latest model, buy there are a hell of a lot of VN lookallikes driving around europe,

[Dilan]

Me: I work in the car industry, you hear things, you see things, and you see the results. BMW's, are one of the cheapest, slapped together China built pieces of crap out there.

LOL, you sound like a 17 year old. I have an e39 and your statement makes me laugh. :baby bott

[needaXYGT]

does anyone agree that Kia cars brake down far too often when new?

[Lagom]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yes, and the C180 should not cost what it does. The E320, well, E350 now, is the taxi of Germany. And that car costs $129,000 here. It's comparable to a Falcon XT, where it sits on the ladder. It is not the C180's fault that it is ultra expensive due to Australia's many taxes which overinflate any imported car's price.

2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, US Base Price = $29,200

2006 Mercedes-Benz C180, AUS Base Price = $55,890

They miss out on our funky taxes. Hmmm.

Lets just make it clear about our taxes.

10% import tariff.
10% GST.

That does not explain the full price difference - it's more than tax.

In regards to an E350 being the Falcon XT of Germany. Just because it's used as a taxi does not make it the equivalent. Bear in mind a new one is €49,781.4 or $83,100 for the E350 Elegance.

Secondly, in a lot of European countries, taxis are exempt or have tax concessions. This artificially skews their pricing. When new car tax is 180% in Denmark, you can understand why people would get a Benz taxi.

New car prices in Australia are not expensive. VW Golfs are cheaper in Australia than in Germany. It's really the premium ones that tend to be cheaper in their home countries, but in terms of standard cars, we have pretty competitive pricing.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Lagom

Lets just make it clear about our taxes.

10% import tariff.
10% GST.

That does not explain the full price difference - it's more than tax.

In regards to an E350 being the Falcon XT of Germany. Just because it's used as a taxi does not make it the equivalent. Bear in mind a new one is €49,781.4 or $83,100 for the E350 Elegance.

Secondly, in a lot of European countries, taxis are exempt or have tax concessions. This artificially skews their pricing. When new car tax is 180% in Denmark, you can understand why people would get a Benz taxi.

New car prices in Australia are not expensive. VW Golfs are cheaper in Australia than in Germany. It's really the premium ones that tend to be cheaper in their home countries, but in terms of standard cars, we have pretty competitive pricing.

You forgot 35% Luxury Car Tax for any vehicle valued over $57,009. That's 55% tax.

$83,100 for an E350 Elegance is $46,000 cheaper then it costs in Australia. That's one brand new XR6 Turbo's worth of difference in prices.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Dilan

LOL, you sound like a 17 year old. I have an e39 and your statement makes me laugh. :baby bott

That was the point moron. Easy to fill the head of some idiot with doubt, as you have just proven. I don't espouse to know about the 318, I made it up in order for this idiot to lose credibility in front of his mates as he was denigrating ford, especially when his rubbishing of it was based on superficial branding.
Now, calling me a 17 year old may be funny to you but the fact that you own one of the cars I was referring to, the povvo pack bmw speaks volumes.

[merlin]

Wow so much uninformed "hating" at the moment on here of anything that isnt a Ford, firstly it was Jap cars now Euro...

At least when it was the Ford vs Holden trash talk it was entertaining to watch...

[NEMO]

I just loved the fact that Saab's rated so badly AND their owners had paid a bit for them so didn't want to admit it. GO GM!

[DODDO]

I cant believe mitsubishi's score, it should have been worse!!! The 2004 Diesel Pajero that my Dad owns is a FANTASTIC car. It does do 4wding a fair bit and is also used during the week to get around town. An excellently built car...BUT, the customer service from mitsubishi is absolutely woeful. The service department is not much better. Overfilling the ngine by 1.2 litres, which aint good for a diesel or any other engine for that matter, the criterea of a major service not being carried out. eg; Adjust valve clearances.
It doesnt suprise me with Ford. Once you purchase the car, the dont want to know you. We've had problems with them accepting warrenty claims and the quality to which the repair has been done. I love the Ford brand, weve owned some type Falcon for the last 18 years and they have been excellent cars, what lets them down is the customer relationship, thats what needs improving.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Best and worst car brands

1. BMW: 59 per cent

2. Volkswagen: 47 per cent

3. Audi: 45 per cent

4. Mercedes: 39 per cent

5. Subaru: 37 per cent

6. Toyota: 13 per cent

7. Mazda: 12 per cent

8. Honda: 2 per cent

9. Nissan: -5 per cent

10. Hyundai: -9 per cent

11. Mitsubishi: -16 per cent

11. Holden: -16 per cent

12. Ford: -25 per cent

13. Saab: -47 per cent

Source: Melbourne Business School

The Australian

Wow, I'm in trouble... I own a Ford AND a Saab.. MINUS 72% :

[ads]

Yeah great that the usual suspects (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) topped the survey but seriously, value for money wise these brands are woeful. So much money for a badge, they'd want to have satisfied customers and can afford to. As was said, no prestige euro owner is going to admit they received poor service, too much egg on their face at $60,000+ a car.

That said, Ford after sales service is woeful, no ground breaking news there, thank god I have an honest mate who works on mine. I was down at the pub just today cashing in a few bets and there was this old punter who's radiator and coolant had cracked the sads on his EF wagon (didn't look closely out of respect for the bloke). He was waiting to have it towed by the RACV. Told me how Ford had him up for over 2 grand to fix the cooling system and head gasket only a few weeks ago. I felt embarassed telling him that my mate had done mine (an EB) a few months ago parts and all for $690. And you know they're going to take him to the cleaners again when it gets towed to the dealership to get fixed. He told me he'd been a Ford man for years but was having to consider a Holden because he couldn't afford to be paying half the cars total value every time he had to fix it. I told him go for it, Holden's are far from perfect but I'd sure as hell rather be replacing power steering pumps than head gaskets, especially if the thing was going to blow its top again 3 weeks out of the dealership. Go figure. Then again tomorrow I'll probably be chuckling at some clubsport with its bonnet up on the side of the road.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Steffo

You forgot 35% Luxury Car Tax for any vehicle valued over $57,009. That's 55% tax.

$83,100 for an E350 Elegance is $46,000 cheaper then it costs in Australia. That's one brand new XR6 Turbo's worth of difference in prices.

Ok so at $86,000 how is it compareable to a $30,000 Falcon? I've actually driven the E39 and it's not all that great. It's nice inside but the car is gutlessand you have to be careful with it as it's a very expensive car and the CD player still ate the CD!!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Ok so at $86,000 how is it compareable to a $30,000 Falcon? I've actually driven the E39 and it's not all that great. It's nice inside but the car is gutlessand you have to be careful with it as it's a very expensive car and the CD player still ate the CD!!

CD Player's can eat CD's? First time I hear that in my life, and I've been using CD's since I was what, four?

Which E39 did you drive? They come in many shapes and sizes? Falcons came with a massive TWO engines until recently. A 5.0 V8 and 4.0 Inline-Six. Now we have a 4.0 Inline-Six, 5.4 V8 and 4.0 Turbo Six.

The E39 came with...

2.5 Inline-Six (525i), 2.8 i6 (528i), 3.0 i6 (530i)
3.5 V8 (535i), 4.0 V8 (540i), 4.4 V8 (545i), 4.9 V8 (M5)

In 530i trim its enough to see off almost every XR badged Falcon pre AUII XR8. In 545i it can see off most Falcons bar T3 T-Series and the FPV F6 cars. An M5 will beat all of them except a Typhoon.

So which one was the gutless model? There are alot of engine/gearbox packages to choose from.

Oh and its comparable. They're designed for the same intent and purpose, they're almost the same size, similar mechanically (4.0 190kW 383Nm Inline-Six vs 3.5 200kW 350Nm V6) etc etc. So they're the same type of car.

And Falcons don't cost 30k anymore. You can barely get an XT for under 40k on-road these days (based off manufacturer RRP, which is like 35k).

[Cooper69S]

Originally Posted by MarkAW

jonbays
How can you conclude that 0.1% of the population is a representative sample of our entire population including socio-economic factors, geographic factors and demographics. Further this very narrow selection was asked a single question that generated half a page of opinion based on a single word reply having forty or fifty possible answers for a recommendation.

not to disagree at all with what you're saying, but these 2000 people are a much bigger cross section than most people access when making a decision on a car purchase. an example is a guy i heard the other day. was saying he owns a ford which has siezed the engine, his son's ford had problems. his daughter's 2yo magna has had no problems, therefore he's going to buy a magna because they are better...
basically a survey of 3 people and that sort of thing happens a lot...

[Green X]

I don’t give a chit what the survey say’s; Even if I had the money to buy a top model European car I would still buy a Ford.

Why cause, a Huge House in a prime suburb with a Falcon GT Parked in the driveway has Class written all over it, LOL

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Green X

I don’t give a chit what the survey say’s; Even if I had the money to buy a top model European car I would still buy a Ford.

Why cause, a Huge House in a prime suburb with a Falcon GT Parked in the driveway has Class written all over it, LOL

You'd actually be surprised how common that is. Many rich people choose the FPV/HSV equivalent over their foreign competition yet can afford much nicer cars.

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by Steffo

You'd actually be surprised how common that is. Many rich people choose the FPV/HSV equivalent over their foreign competition yet can afford much nicer cars.

CUBs: Cashed UP Bogans

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Steffo

CD Player's can eat CD's? First time I hear that in my life, and I've been using CD's since I was what, four?

The CD stuffed up and broke the CD into 8 pieces. Wow, for an expensive car that's annoying. Also I stuffed up I didn't drive a E39 but a C350 (i gotta stop doing 3 things at once). :

But than when your mate works at Daimler Chrysler you would steer clear when you hear some of the warranty claims on real expensive cars and it's not common.

Originally Posted by Steffo

Oh and its comparable. They're designed for the same intent and purpose, they're almost the same size, similar mechanically (4.0 190kW 383Nm Inline-Six vs 3.5 200kW 350Nm V6) etc etc. So they're the same type of car.

And Falcons don't cost 30k anymore. You can barely get an XT for under 40k on-road these days (based off manufacturer RRP, which is like 35k).

It's not comparable when the price is so different. With a Falcon your looking at half the price even when luxury tax is removed. The amount of power you get out of the car, decent handling (for the base model, better when you go up in the models) and the size.
Both these cars are for different markets and personally the luxury models are a waste of money as I have never really enjoyed driving in these cars.

[AUIII XR8 MAN]

No surprise in the results.
Maybe it time to drop this close enough is good enough.

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Ok so at $86,000 it's a very expensive car and the CD player still ate the CD!!

More likely its one of those stupid CD players that require 50 different steps just to get a CD in or out instead of just poking them in the hole or pushing an eject button :evil_laug :evil_laug :evil_laug :evil_laug

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by Steffo

And Falcons don't cost 30k anymore. You can barely get an XT for under 40k on-road these days (based off manufacturer RRP, which is like 35k).

WRONG

BF2 XR6 - Pick it up tomorrow 38K including on roads

Check your prices first!

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by Cooper69S

not to disagree at all with what you're saying, but these 2000 people are a much bigger cross section than most people access when making a decision on a car purchase. an example is a guy i heard the other day. was saying he owns a ford which has siezed the engine, his son's ford had problems. his daughter's 2yo magna has had no problems, therefore he's going to buy a magna because they are better...
basically a survey of 3 people and that sort of thing happens a lot...

I understand your logic behind that sort of thinking but surveys are supposed to represent the entire population base which enevitably they can't.

Even a large data base survey of say 1 to 2 million can have faults which is why the ABS now include so many bullshit questions in the census papers because extrapolation has so many factors.

[FPV329]

xcgxl's sig says;

I don't care what I do for my next job as long as I don't have to wear one of those fluoro shirts

and wrote;

CUBs: Cashed UP Bogans

It's my flouro shirt job that makes me a CUB O.K.?!
So far thats fine with me, my GF and my asset list.
BTW I ordered a GT-P but FPV f%#*ed me over, so I told them to jammit. Still have the copy of the order in my wallet!

[Lagom]

Originally Posted by Steffo

You forgot 35% Luxury Car Tax for any vehicle valued over $57,009. That's 55% tax.

$83,100 for an E350 Elegance is $46,000 cheaper then it costs in Australia. That's one brand new XR6 Turbo's worth of difference in prices.

Ahh yes, LCT, thanks for reminding me. But it's 25% and only on each dollar above $57,009. Saying there is 55% tax is plain misleading.

Work it out backwards.

E350 is $126,500 = $69,491 over LCT threshold.
/ 1.35 (account for GST & LCT)
= $51,474.81 x 0.25 = LCT
= $12868.70

Luxury Car Tax component is $12868.70.

GST = 1/11 of pre LCT amount.
= $126,500-$12868.70
= $113631.30 x 1/11
= $10,330.12

Total GST & LCT = $23198.82

Pre GST & LCT price = $103301.18
Pre tariff price ~ $94k. (there's arguably less tariff paid as the local importer would have margin).

So, the tax component of $126,500 is really about 26%, nowhere near 55%.

As I said, there's more to the story than pure tax. The pre tax price of an E350 is still higher than the price of an E350 in Germany with 16% value added tax.