Howard talks LPG

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Dude have you ever owned a diesel? It's a false economy. I'm going to use a 100 series cruiser as en example, but the same applies to passenger sedans etc.

To purchase a TD cruiser, you're up for $13,000 extra over the cost of the same model and spec with a petrol engine. It doesnt matter what make / mode you buy, the diesel always comes at a hefty premium.

So after you've forked out all of the cash to buy the cost saving diesel, you'll find out that the servicing need to be carried out twice as often in most cases. Generally diesels need the oil and filter done every 5000ks, and a regular service every 10,000ks.

Most efficient and drivable diesels are turbo charged. This will almost double your insurance costs in most cases, as now the vehicle is classed as being high performance. My in laws pay $1600 per year for full comp on a TD 100 series with both drivers over 50, rating 1, and living in a rural area. On their policy its listed as a high performance turbo charged vehicle.

The 80 series they had prior to the 100 series did the big end after 240,000ks and the cost of rebuilding the engine and injector pump was just under $12,000!!!!!!!!!

Modern diesels will not forgive poor maintenance, and God forbid you own 1 when something breaks! Get an injector die on your TD5 Discovery, you'll need to replace all 5, and a cost of just under $5K!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure diesels are economical each week at the pump, but there is a lot more cost associated with doesels than just filling them up. If all you do is drive it, great, but add up the cost of ownership and in most cases they dont make a great deal of economic sense, well not to the point that they are streets ahead of a petrol engine.

Of course there are always exceptions.

Or you can look at the Golf which is only 3 grand dearer than a petrol both been 2.0 litres, the diesel a Turbo and for that 3 grand you get another 250-300km per 55 litre tank about 700km in the petrol to 900-1000 in the diesel and the diesels faster, has much more useable power and servicing is the same. Get the petrol coverted to gas and suddenly that 3 grand becomes nillified and I dont like your chances of having the same power of the 2.0 petrol which is already slower than the diesel. Its not hard to see why they are becoming so popular and why Holden is only 12 months away from a diesel Commode. I seriously hope Ford doesnt get left too far behind and gets one into the Territory soonish.

If you get the 1.9 Diesel Golf its cheaper than the 2.0 petrol not much slower and the economy is endless.

[ED Classic]

To rebuild a 2.4 lite Torago engine its about 7 grand these days.

Oh And no offence to the Landcruiser but if you want to look at the future of diesel look at the technoligy in the Golf or Audi Diesels rather than Toyotas 4wds...They are now a few steps behind...Should I mention the power/Torque economy of the new A8 Diesel which is more the capacity of the Toyotas?

[rag top]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

My EL is as cheap to run as Prius :

Imagine an LPG conversion for the Prius - ultimate 'titus' ride!

[blutura]

Originally Posted by schmidty

I've been thinking about this. I spent just over 13k on petrol last financial year in my ute, and another 6.5k in the missus car.

Its more of a "How can the struggling working class individual afford not to" in the long term.

Face it, things aren't going to get better.

I was thinking i dont really have a spare 4k sitting around to put my ute on gas, but at the same time, for the time it'll take me to save 4k, i've blown a heap more money on fuel, and the whole time the cost keeps rising.

At the end of the day i'd be much better off digging up 4k, and putting my ute on gas right now. In the next 12 months my fuel costs would be about 5.5 - 6k, and 4k for the conversion, meaning i'm going to be ahead in about 10 months, and the rest is in my pocket...

The trouble with that is, if you have to take out a loan to pay for the LPG conversion, the money you 'save' by using LPG instead of petrol will be spent on interest on the loan.

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by schmidty

To purchase a TD cruiser, you're up for $13,000 extra over the cost of the same model and spec with a petrol engine. It doesnt matter what make / mode you buy, the diesel always comes at a hefty premium.


Most efficient and drivable diesels are turbo charged. This will almost double your insurance costs in most cases, as now the vehicle is classed as being high performance. My in laws pay $1600 per year for full comp on a TD 100 series with both drivers over 50, rating 1, and living in a rural area. On their policy its listed as a high performance turbo charged vehicle.

Or you could just buy a patrol and it wouldnt cost as much in the first place as there base model is a TD engine.

And your inlaws are getting ripped off with there insurance, if it is classed as a high performace vehicle I would be getting that changed or going with another company. I own a 4.2 TD patrol and its not classed as a high performace vehicle.

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by ED Classic

Oh And no offence to the Landcruiser but if you want to look at the future of diesel look at the technoligy in the Golf or Audi Diesels rather than Toyotas 4wds...They are now a few steps behind...Should I mention the power/Torque economy of the new A8 Diesel which is more the capacity of the Toyotas?

Of course the Toyota, Nissan 4wd's diesel engines are going to be a few steps beind the Audi, Bmw ect. The engines are built to do different things, I dont think any one would jump in a diesel Landcrusier or patrol and expect it to perform the same way that a falcon does. But when people are buying diesel euro cars they want them to dirve, perform the same way if not better than the petrol version

[jimmy_c]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Anyone filling up more than once a week has got to be asking themselves what they are doing still using petrol with petrol heading towards the cliamed $1.80 per l. Some weeks i've been spending $350 per week on petrol. Its a tax deduction thankfully, but still a lot of money.

Dont believe everything you hear. If you see the real story the pipe is going to fixed within the next two weeks.

So this is just the media playing up ****. Sometimes i think the media is in colusion with the fuel companies and not the govt.

[WizBang]

I know it's not worth me changeing over to gas on my car as I don't do that many kays a year in it ,but I'm going to buy a new car over the christmas break and was looking at a BF ute on gas but still no tsure on this .Dose anyone have one and whats their thought on them

[peedee]

Best lpg car i ever saw was a datsun 120y on straight gas, this was back in 1988 and was done by a gas conversion mob to see how cheap they could get to brisbane from sydney and back lpg .209 cents per litre I think from memory.
Also diesels are dearer to work on (parts) but longevity is the key here my brother had a MQ patrol, blew a head gasket (gasket $300) approx 1985 one day to replace (had 750,000 k's on the clock) dropped the skirt off number 5 piston at 1,010,00 odd k's replaced with imported turbo diesel, approx cost $5000 this was back in about 1990. Not too sure how modern diesels would stack up, but maintainance is the key, father inlaw has volvo new engine at 800,000 k's still going strong 500,000 k's later, my ford 250,000k's original xflow carby xf.
peter

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by AnthonyQLD

Or you could just buy a patrol and it wouldnt cost as much in the first place as there base model is a TD engine.

And your inlaws are getting ripped off with there insurance, if it is classed as a high performace vehicle I would be getting that changed or going with another company. I own a 4.2 TD patrol and its not classed as a high performace vehicle.

Dude if a patrol met their needs, and they wanted 1, they would have purchased 1.

I will guarantee you would be paying more for insurance than if you were driving the 4.8 Petrol. I have mates with GU Patrols, 4.2TD and 3.0L TD they all commented on the insurance.

By the ay, the cruiser is insured through AAMI for $1600 p.a. I didnt think anyone insured cheaper than them.

NSW Class anything with a turbo as being high performance. You can drive a NA 6 that does 0 - 100 in sub 6's on their P's, but they cant drive a diahatsu copen with a turbocharged 4, 50kw & 100nm.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by blutura

The trouble with that is, if you have to take out a loan to pay for the LPG conversion, the money you 'save' by using LPG instead of petrol will be spent on interest on the loan.

Its nothing like it. If i'm spending $300 per week on petrol, and can turn that into $150. So if i borrow i will still be able to pay $150 per week off the conversion and interest. Therefore it'd take 26 weeks to pay for the conversion plus with a low interest loan at 10% i'd be up for about an extra $200 in interest, so say an extra 2 weeks. So in 28 weeks, i'm ahead after that.

If i could dig up an extra say $100 per week so save for a conversion, it'd take me 40 weeks to save for it. So in 40 weeks it'd cost me anywhere up to 12k in petrol, plus the 4k i've saved for the conversion.
So in 40 weeks i've spent $16k to run my car while i saved, then pay for the conversion. If i then finished the year on LPG I'd be up for another 12 weeks at $150, so another $1800 taking the years grand total for fuel costs and conversion to $17800

If i convert now, run 12 months on LPG and include cost of the conversion, i'd be looking more at $11,800.

Then the following year it'd be more like $7800 p.a.

Thats why it makes absolutley no sense to wait in my opinion. Figures speak for themselves.

[Bobman]

I agree with schmidty,

I am seriously considering putting the BA through the conversion now, before installation prices rise etc & enjoy the savings. I had an AU2 dual fuel and it was the best car I ever owned economy & reliability wise, from one time as low as $14 to fill up the tank and as high as $35, with the BA every week it's $80 or $90... and I hate the disgusting smell of petrol & even the tail pipe emissions.

[XR Martin]

Theres a guy mentioned in the latest Wheels mag in regards to owning a Diesel Gemini with 1.5million kms
He's only just upgraded it to the latest TD Astra.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by AnthonyQLD

Of course the Toyota, Nissan 4wd's diesel engines are going to be a few steps beind the Audi, Bmw ect. The engines are built to do different things, I dont think any one would jump in a diesel Landcrusier or patrol and expect it to perform the same way that a falcon does. But when people are buying diesel euro cars they want them to dirve, perform the same way if not better than the petrol version

Exactly so as they replace Petrol Engines you cant doubt the potential to do the inteded job can you?

[normxb]

On the News tonight they said "After market Conversions" could affect the warranty on newer cars (classed as a Mod) , But Gas New car sales have risen from something like 14% to 22 % recently.

[merlin]

Diesels are excellent for long highway trips, BUT they are not the bees knees when it comes to running around the city - their fuel usage in the city is not that good, sorry.

[lush]

Schmidty if you do look into converting the ute can you please give us an update? I toss it round now and then for mine, but dont really know much about it. As in I love my car, but Im not a car nut and no sweet f all apart from the basics. I dont know how easy it is or if its recommended to do an aftermarket conversion etc, would it lessen or improve resale value etc?

[johnydep]

The rebate sounds good, at first, but I can only see a very short term benefit. This is just like any other government fund to prop up an industry, they never work for long and in the long term do more harm than good.

It also creates a new debate, not everyone wants, likes or can have gas, yet these people are cheated out of $1000. So what is in it for us, I also drive, I work, my pay hasn't gone up, the gas fitter won't fit gas to my car, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, I just don't see the benefit of throwing money at one small section of the industry when everyone is suffering, it causes division.

Some of what I said i another thread;

I reckon the rebate is a rort.

Why should my tax dollars go to help someone else pay for their LPG system?

If they're going to give money away for fitting LPG systems, why not give some to people who do not want gas, so that they can buy petrol?

It's ridiculous, the gas industry and car yards will be loving it. Imagine if your a car salesperson; "and here we have this lovely 6 cylinder Falcon, buy it today & we'll fit gas to it for $1500, just sign here. No don't thank me, it's my pleasure"

And on top of that there is the loss of competition in the gas industry.

Why should the gas manufacturers, suppliers & fitters find ways of passing on savings, thus dropping the price of the final install?
People will be flooding in with their $1000 rebate.

And because the government in NSW rorts you does not make it right for them all to do it.

There are better ways to help people than to throw one off payments to select few.

I had better stop it here before we loose this thread.

Any comments post them here; http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=60002

[leanne350z]

Diesel vs LPG?
Been reading this thread and thought I should comment for some that would be interested. I own a 2001 model Citroen C5 HDI diesel and a 2006 Ford Territory which is being LPG converted to a Vapour Injection system during the 1st week of September.
First off, the diesel car is a turbo and one of the earliest cars that came to Australia with common rail injection, basically into it's 4th or 5th generation now, but only starting to appear in the Japanese made cars. Does not cost more to insure due to being turbo (NSW). Consistently runs in city or country or highway driving in the 8.0 litres per hundred average (have driven 1200 km's on 70 litres a few times but only all highway driving). Great car BUT costs ****loads to service. Being Euro and also late technology diesel costs a whack! One injector is playing up and quoted to fix minimum $1200. Last service for timing chain etc (major service) was $2000. Has it's good and bad but luckily for me it is all tax writedowns.
Now LPG: When the Territory is done, my $200 a week fuel bill (15l per 100 average) should turn into $100 or less. Servicing costs and wear and tear should be less but will have to see what happens (still I can't see Ford parts costing as much as imported Euro bits). However, this two tonne car will be cheaper to run than the Euro diesel short and long term as well. The best part is, I can still have my large car to take seven people around, tow the boat, pick up some timber etc etc and it should only cost me somewhere in the vicinity of $10 per hundred km's at todays LPG price.

cheers

[GOLDIE]

Diesel cars in australia will never come close to being economacail compared to a petrol car converted to lpg as the price of diesel in australia is a rip off.

It is far cheaping in europe compared to unleaded.

Ian

[sarrge2001]

Two years ago i was paying $90.00 a week to run my EB Falcon on petrol. Traded it and bought an EL Ghia on gas (for 11K - how times have changed).

Now it costs me $90 a week to pay the loan and run the car.

Much nicer to drive and not forgetting that petrol has gone up about 30% since i sold the EB, so that would be costing somewhere around $110 ~ $120 a week to run.

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by schmidty

I will guarantee you would be paying more for insurance than if you were driving the 4.8 Petrol. I have mates with GU Patrols, 4.2TD and 3.0L TD they all commented on the insurance.

By the ay, the cruiser is insured through AAMI for $1600 p.a. I didnt think anyone insured cheaper than them.

But unless it is different in QLD, I dont see how they pay that much for the cruiser. Im under 25 and dont pay over 1000 for my TD. I was not having a go at you or your inlaws, I was just saying I would look into it becasue it does sound a bit expensive.

I just got 2 quotes from RACQ.
First one is for a 2006 Patrol 4.2TD RRP:$65,240 Yearly Premium: $568.70.
Second one is for a 2006 Patrol 4.8L Petrol RRP:$61,440 Yearly Premium: $643.35

This is bassed on a 45 year old with a clean driving record

[Zoigzy]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The rebate sounds good, at first, but I can only see a very short term benefit. This is just like any other government fund to prop up an industry, they never work for long and in the long term do more harm than good.

It also creates a new debate, not everyone wants, likes or can have gas, yet these people are cheated out of $1000. So what is in it for us, I also drive, I work, my pay hasn't gone up, the gas fitter won't fit gas to my car, etc.

Same could be said for the baby bonus, first home buyers rebate,family allowance, or any of the myriad of payments the Gov't hands out to select members of the community. Unfortunately I'm not eligable for any of the above, but I'm not whingeing. Here's something I can do for my benefit and for the benefit of environment .................................. in that order. :

[Juzdin]

There is also talk that there is a 3 month waiting list for conversions to LPG. With the rebate that wait will be even longer as more people convert. This will either mean more opportunities for people to enter the industry or even further increases in the conversion. So in the end if demand continues to rise the $1000 may be eaten up by profiteering conversion companies anyway.

[Bobman]

The wait is primarily due to supply problems with Gas tanks, or so I've heard.. especially Impco systems.

[MO]

Puegoet 307 hdi wagon (diesel) from memory approx 5l/100 highway and 7l/100 city.

Yes its 4cyl. will do the speed you want and with more extras for approx 40k than you will ever get on local product.

Some features headlight adjustment from dash..leather interior...auto sensing wipers..windscreen that stops thermal entry...rear vision mirror that auto dims for lights behind...the list is long.

But as has been said being euro will cost to service.