New Holden V6 225kw!

[mik]

369nm torque is nothing to write home about if you have to rev it to 5200 to make any decent torque........ its still a good boat anchor.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I heard from a mate that is strong Holden supporter that Holden (or HSV) is planning to release a naturally aspirated 225kw V6 Holden to coincide with the release of the new Falcon in 2008.

Apparently the new Holden will be using the Alloytec V6 but with higher compression and direct port injection. the engine is supposed to be the same one as in the 2008 Cadillac CTS with 225kw@6300rpm and 369nm@5200rpm.

Can anyone confirm this? The torque figure seems pretty crappy indicating a VERY peaky engine but if Holden releases this and the new GTSR then Ford is in big trouble.

225kW? Unlikely for the volume models in the immediate future. Holden's number one priority (as is Fords) is fuel economy. Any power increase is either a lower priority or will be limited to the premium models. Could you image the fleet managers looking at the running costs of a 300hp fleet car with fuel at near record prices?

The question in my mind is when will Holden introduce the direct injection Alloytech engine to the local models. It has already been announced that the Cadillac STS will receive the direction injection version of the Alloytech engine. How soon before Holden receives this engine? I predict before the end of this decade.

FF

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by merlin

Why would Ford be worried? We have the XR6T - Holden have nothing to compete against it at all, 225kw and some weedy torque dosn't even begin to compete with the turbo 6 in its current tune let alone Orion tune.

What weed are you smoking? Holden don't pitch the SV6 at the XR6T, Holdens have an answer you may have heard of it, it called the SS? 270KW versus XR6T 240KW. Holden have an answer, its called a V8, and having owned both I can tell you Holdens V8 takes some beating.

As for the poll. Holden won't go to 225KW, they don't need to. They will tune for torque and economy. This segment is not interested in the biggest power output, Holden have the SS/SSV for people who want that. I'd also wager Ford will do exactly the same thing. Look for Orions I6 to go to 195-198Kw, better torque and a futher increase in fuel economy.

And as to the specific poll question which has nothing to do with engines?
Why would Holden need a bailout, they are doing just fine. The VE is making its numbers and the majority of sales are in the high margin cars (Calais, Calais V, SSV). The spare capacity is earmarked for export, in fact I heard one of the reasons Holden dropped the fleet market (by not giving massive fleet discounts) was because they could sell high margin cars and export everything else. Those fleet sales went to Ford and Toyota, helps Fords sales numbers, but the margins are low, which in Fords case helps move product and keep people employed while Orion is finished.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by BadMac

What weed are you smoking? Holden don't pitch the SV6 at the XR6T, Holdens have an answer you may have heard of it, it called the SS? 270KW versus XR6T 240KW. Holden have an answer, its called a V8, and having owned both I can tell you Holdens V8 takes some beating.

I thought the SS was the XR8 equivilant?

XT-Omega
Futura - Berlina
XR6 - SV6
XR6T -
XR8 - SS
Fairmont - Lumina
Fairmont Ghia - Calais
Fairlane Ghia - Calais V
Fairlane G8 - Statesman
LTD - Caprice

or something like that...

[Deadman]

You could argue, (from Holden's point of view), they see it as:

XR6T - SS
XR8 - SS V

[majin_andrew]

or XR6T - XR8 - SS - SSV

and as for all this talk about direct injection, I don't claim to know much, but I thought that to gain the full benefits of DI requires lower sulphur content than is currently available in Australian petrol. If what I thought was true (it probably isn't), then there wouldn't be much gain in introducing DI in Australian cars just yet.

[perrys]

The Cadillac version is not even on sale in the states yet, and its the luxury arm of GM. It will take at least another 2 years for it to filter down to bread and butter Daewoo... opps I mean Holden. Cadillac is gonna be launched here next year, who would buy the new CTS if the commo had the same engine??

[crYnOid]

My understanding was the DI HFV6 was to arrive with the VF in 2008, it would only be available to the higher models that the current 195kw engine is available on, and the 195kw engine would become the base engine. A 6 speed auto (6L50E?) would probably come with the DI engine which would have a lower torque rating that the one used on the V8s.

[jdg]

Aint Holden always over do it, they can never seem to get a good amount of torque out of any of there v6s!

That could have something to do with the fact the Holden motor is .4L smaller than the fords? :

No doubt they will be aiming for that sub 10 fuel economy bracket. I really think they need to do something about their tranny's...IMO the 4 speed it poor, the 5 speed is ok and the 6 speed is good...an improvement over the old 4 speed in the V8's but none are anywhere near the standard of the ZF.

Look at the just re-release 530i from BMW...particularly the I6 engine.

Size 3.0
Power 200kw
Torque 315 nm
0-100 in 6.6

Pretty dam impressive for a 5 series sedan...wath a 3l motor.

[Kenaz]

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

Fairlane Ghia - Calais V

Not quite. Fairlane is the long wheel base grandpa car of the Ford range. Calais V is far from that.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by jdg

Look at the just re-release 530i from BMW...particularly the I6 engine.

Size 3.0
Power 200kw
Torque 315 nm
0-100 in 6.6

Pretty dam impressive for a 5 series sedan...wath a 3l motor.

But not too impressive for something that costs $115k :

[crYnOid]

I had a quick look on the bmw aust site and couldn't find what fuel is the minimum required for the 530i, I would assume premium is the minimum. The DI HFV6 is supposed to run on a mimimum of regular according to GM.

[jdg]

Oh yah true in a sense you get what you pay for.

I dont know how much the 5 series cost to develop but i know the 3 series coast about $3 billion. Image the product is Ford/Holden engineers were given that much!

Edit: yeh it would be at least 95 RON. That said people paying 115k for a car shouldnt be too worried about paying 5-10c/l extra :P

[majin_andrew]

Originally Posted by jdg

That could have something to do with the fact the Holden motor is .4L smaller than the fords? :

No. Our 3.9L EA (note: old) has more torque than a 3.8L VY (note: newish).

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by MethodX

But..
Ford is the V8 company.
Now your all turbo boys?

For shame.

Yeah... the company that made the Cortina GT500, Escort RS2000, Escort RS Cosworth, Sierra Cosworth RS500, Fiesta RS Turbo, Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Focus RS, Capri GT and so on is "The V8 Company."

Ford's the multi-national money making company, just like GM and everyone else. They're not biased to anything, they're biased to what works, works well, for an inexpensive amount of money and sells.

[jdg]

My point exactly Larger capacity motors tend to have higher torque. Look at the 200kw 3.5L Aurion...less torque than the Commodore. Look at the 3.8 Mitsu 380...less torque than the Falcon more than the Commodore or Aurion.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yeah... the company that made the Cortina GT500, Escort RS2000, Escort RS Cosworth, Sierra Cosworth RS500, Fiesta RS Turbo, Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Focus RS, Capri GT and so on is "The V8 Company."

Ford's the multi-national money making company, just like GM and everyone else. They're not biased to anything, they're biased to what works, works well, for an inexpensive amount of money and sells.

But Mr Ciganski
Whats Ford always been famous for both in Aus and in The USA? its V8's
Pioneer of the V8.

[burnz]

i don't know of any direct injection.
but VE "diesel",
and D.O.D.v6/v8

[XWGT]

They really should just hand that 3.6L to Porsche

They can only manage a lazy 305kw from that capacity normally aspirated.

Yep, cant wait for that GM peice of engineering wonder.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XWGT

They really should just hand that 3.6L to Porsche

They can only manage a lazy 305kw from that capacity normally aspirated.

Yep, cant wait for that GM peice of engineering wonder.

Don't forget that the 3.6litre engine they use is basically the same thing introduced with the 911 964 in 1989, with watercooling and VarioCam Plus (VVT/VCT) added over the years. And if you take that further, its a capacity increase on the 3.0 they've had since the 70's. They're getting FSI direct injection in 2008, which is giving them 20-30hp more power again. 320kW N/A GT3 anyone? Hehe.

[Twinpiston]

Originally Posted by majin_andrew

or XR6T - XR8 - SS - SSV

and as for all this talk about direct injection, I don't claim to know much, but I thought that to gain the full benefits of DI requires lower sulphur content than is currently available in Australian petrol. If what I thought was true (it probably isn't), then there wouldn't be much gain in introducing DI in Australian cars just yet.

I thought as of July 1 that Aus oil refineries were to now produce lower sulphur petrol (i.e down to 50 ppm)

?????

[fou_bleu]

I think this make us happy: Ford Aus - The I6 Company, Holden - The V8 Company...

[banarcus]

All this talk reeks of who can wee further up the school urinal.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by perrys

The Cadillac version is not even on sale in the states yet, and its the luxury arm of GM. It will take at least another 2 years for it to filter down to bread and butter Daewoo... opps I mean Holden. Cadillac is gonna be launched here next year, who would buy the new CTS if the commo had the same engine??

The Cadillac already has the same V6 engine as the Commodore. Another variant of the same engine will make no difference.

FF

[Gadgetman]

To hell with power, just torque will do. There is no other 6 cylinder in the market that has anywhere near the Nm's the falcon has.

[flappist]

This whole thread is almost beyond belief. Bloody school holidays.......

A holden sedan weighs about the same as a falcon sedan and runs on the same fuels so they are subject to the same laws of physics.
The energy released by burning fuel is directly proportional to the quantity burned.
If a engine is naturally aspirated then the quantity of fuel/air mixture that can be introduced is limited by the capacity of the cylinders, friction of the intake system and outside air pressure.
Forced induction of all types just increases the outside air pressure so more fuel enters the cylinders.

Burning this fuel creates energy/pressure which is converted to torque by the pistons/crank.

Torque is independent of RPM (disregarding systems losses due to many many factors including friction/expansion rates/pneumatics etc).

Power equals torque multiplied by RPM. The higher the RPM the more virtual capacity per time period but also the higher the frictional losses.
The higher the rpm the faster the pistons move and therefore the shorter the time available to induce and exhaust the gas. The problem of inertia becomes more prevalent at higher revs.

In order to demonstrate the power figures that are being stated with an engine of the capacity shown, the engine will have to be extremely free reving and quite unsuitable to normal large sedan style operation.
The bore/stroke ratio is configured to be most efficient at a far lower range than that required.

It may come as a shock to all the kids on here but most of the cars on the road are not thrashed to the limit every day like on your xbox.

Now please, please, please oh powerful and merciful deities of AFF, it you cannot stop can you at least curtail this outbreak of stupid "OMG OMG OMG, the sky is falling" threads. There are actually members of the general public who read here and we are being made to look very foolish........

[merlin]

Originally Posted by BadMac

What weed are you smoking? Holden don't pitch the SV6 at the XR6T, Holdens have an answer you may have heard of it, it called the SS? 270KW versus XR6T 240KW. Holden have an answer, its called a V8, and having owned both I can tell you Holdens V8 takes some beating.

Come again? SV6 = Holdens hot six. XR6T = Ford's hot six. XR6T>SV6. Pretty simple equation i would have thought...

Besides since when does a turbo 6 compete with a V8 - two different segments I would think. Plenty of V8 buyers wouldn't even consider a T6 and vice versa.

So much for both eyes open ey?

[sleekism]

Motor, Wheels etc always seem to pitch SV6 against XR6 XR6T against SS and Typhoon against Clubsport.

They are in the same price bracket and are performance cars thus it makes sense

In reality it is:

XR8 & XR6T against SS and Typhoon & GT against Clubsport.

XR6 is Fords second biggest selling model (after XT) and SS is Holdens second biggest selling model (after Omega)

As much as some people don't like to admit it Falcon is stedily becoming the hot six performance car.

I think at the moment 60% of FPV's sold are Turbo and 40% are V8 so Ford is not about to drop the V8 but I bet you FPV is tipping more money into L6 development than V8.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by merlin

Come again? SV6 = Holdens hot six. XR6T = Ford's hot six. XR6T>SV6. Pretty simple equation i would have thought...

Besides since when does a turbo 6 compete with a V8 - two different segments I would think. Plenty of V8 buyers wouldn't even consider a T6 and vice versa.

So much for both eyes open ey?

Omega = XT
Berlina = Futura
SV6 = XR6
SS = XR6T
SSV = XR8
Calais = Fairmont
Calais V = Fairmont Ghia.

Not my fault Holden decided that their customers would prefer a V8 over a Force Fed 6. I personally find it great that there is differentiation. I have owned both a SS and a XR6T, I wouldn't buy a VE SS, nor would I buy another XR6T. And yes its great chosing whats best for my needs at the time, rather than being limited to which model of Ford can I afford this time.

And to try and stay on the subject rather than making anything personal.

As flappist said, yes you can build a 2l with 400KW but for 99.9% of the population it would be a nightmare to drive (0 torque, peak power from 9500-9700). And in general the power out equals the petrol and air put in, so to make 400KW out of a 2l (or 4l or V8) you need to put in similar (see Flappists post for other factors) amounts of fuel.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by BadMac

And to try and stay on the subject rather than making anything personal.
.

Pot, Kettle ect. ect.
__________________________________________________ ________
Still dont get why XR6T = SS???

I would never consider an SS (or XR8) but would buy a XR6T - to me they are completly different segments. Performance 6 market vs Performance 8 market. This is just my opinion of course.