Giving Australian jobs away

[stalker]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Can you give me a single example in a single industry where this has happened?

The scaremongering in this country is becoming ridiculous. From refugees to terrorists to bloody doomsdayers the **** people will believe in the face of contrary evidence is astounding.

I receive an incredibly comprehensive report of the mining and energy sector wages every year and for the last few years I can tell you the numbers only ever go up, not down! To suggest otherwise is quite frankly total rubbish.

dont know if you have ever heard of T&R pastrol, but maybe you should look into them. exactly what they do. each year they go to a different country and bring in labor under this exact scheme. only issue is that they have no training get put on base labor jobs and get paid as if they were on skilled jobs..

its a bloody circus, the unions cant even touch t&r because the imports are all told how to vote by the company if they dont vote the right way they are told they will get shipped home...

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

In 1998, the Melbourne Docks, scab labour brought in to replace 1400 union workers.

if the Docks is the best example you could find.....

it was an attempt to break union power in the docks.

Of course it was. And it needed to happen.

In a true free market, just like employees have the right to withdraw labour, employers should have the right to find cheaper labour. If the more expensive workers have higher productivity and do a better job, they'll more than likely retain their positions wont they?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XWGT

So I repeat, in any of the above where their instances when a specific shortfall of labour was projected well in advance and once the project was finished the 457 Visas were extended and local employees lost their jobs?

To put things in perpective here. Its 6,000 NEW jobs. Not existing, not relocating, NEW that are required. In an economy that already has trades qualified employees stretched to the limit.

Sorry but the whole sky is falling scenerio is complete rubbish.

Plenty of manufacturing workers here in Victoria looking for jobs, after the few thousand which have just lost theirs this year.

[dimka100]

You absolutely can! and yes they will be cheaper!

But then I will offer more quality, and ofcs it will be up to you to decide if you want that extra quality or you want the cheaper price. Companies do that all the time, hence the outsourcing.

But I and those who work in my industry don't go around and expect the government to help us (just cause we think we are 'entitled') ... we study and work hard in order to remain competitive against the cheaper offshore alternatives.

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Well, why should we pay you the wages you are getting when someone from India or the Phillipines can do the same job for less?

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Its not I feel entitled to money Gina is getting from the ground, its making a stand about wages and working conditions Australia wide, because once it starts it probably won't be able to get stopped.

Once WHAT starts?

457 Visa's are short term Visas to fill specific short term requirements.
They are not residency Visas and the employees are not permenant.

I sort of see where your going here but I'm sorry your barking up the wrong tree. This is not like an outsourcing arrangement where jobs are permenantly lost, its a short term measure to cover a short term gap. Rememebr the majority of these jobs, 4,300 of them infact still need to be filled by Australian residents. And just quietly I think you will see SFA chance of that happening. I think the construction timetable is probably already gone back to the drawing board as we speak.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by dimka100

You absolutely can! and yes they will be cheaper!

But then I will offer more quality, and ofcs it will be up to you to decide if you want that extra quality or you want the cheaper price. Companies do that all the time, hence the outsourcing.

But I and those who work in my industry don't go around and expect the government to help us (just cause we think we are 'entitled') ... we study and work hard in order to remain competitive against the cheaper offshore alternatives.

Why can you offer more quality when that person in the Phillipines and or India has the same qualifications as you?

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Plenty of manufacturing workers here in Victoria looking for jobs, after the few thousand which have just lost theirs this year.

Correct! And the number that actually choose to head west and take up these positions will be the proof in the pudding.

My predicition is it will be very few. And thats not an indictment on the workers, its simply a fact that its not easy to pick up families and move. Its really hard. But the truth of the matter is the projects are in the middle of no where and theres no changing that. Jobs will still be vacant in the west while people are unemployed in the east. And the world will not end

[dimka100]

Well its simple really, I put on the table what I can offer, and someone else from overseas puts on the table what they have to offer ... the employer ultimately decides what best suits their business needs and makes a choice on whats best for their business ... I may get the job or I may not get the job ... but again I repeat, this does not mean that I'm entitled for anything, or that someone must give me a job, or that someone must pay me more money!

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Why can you offer more quality when that person in the Phillipines and or India has the same qualifications as you?

[tranquilized]

From what I understand, which has been bolstered by what XWGT has posted, this is good policy that needed to happen.

As for directing anger to government vs gina - Gina IS the government. She didn't like Kev's mining tax so she had him fired. Whatever Gina wants, Gina gets, and any government that says 'no' will simply be removed from power.

Regardless of your political stance, or views on the mining industry, the fact that this country is a corporate state should alarm anyone.

[Polyal]

What should alarm everyone is how much we are currently reliant on mining. Without it this country would be in strife right now...so its give and take a little.

[Maka]

And who does the government consult with to draft new legislation? And who pumps a quarter of a billion of self interest lobby dollars into the politcal party coffers? Umm this situation is exploited by certain parties and until this situation/law changes things will get worse not better.You can already see the effects of this in other economic sectors and consumer buying patterns. Greed is a sickness not a right...

ps, Attorney General Nicola Roxon is trying to bring in laws to diminish transperancy when it come to politician's lerks & perks as reported on the ABC's News 24 the Drum on Monday night......You wonder why people get agitated when they hear this sort of thing.


cheers,Maka

[Charliewool]

[QUOTE=XWGT]Once WHAT starts?

457 Visa's are short term Visas to fill specific short term requirements.
They are not residency Visas and the employees are not permenant./QUOTE]

Umm.. from North West Star May 16th..
"IMMIGRATION officers will be present at the 2012 Xstrata Mount Isa Mining Expo from May 16-18 to provide information on visa programs and upcoming significant reforms to the skilled migration program. The changes being introduced on 1 July 2012 include a new online service connecting Australian employers with potential skilled migrants and streamlining of the pathway to permanent residence for people already working in Australia on temporary skilled 457 visas.
From July 1, there will also be a fast-tracked pathway from the 457 visa to permanent residence under the employer-sponsored visa program, enabling skilled migrants to settle and work in regional and metropolitan Australia."

Sounds fairly permanent to me?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Plenty of manufacturing workers here in Victoria looking for jobs, after the few thousand which have just lost theirs this year.

Sounds like a good opportunity, off you go up to the mines to live and work.

You are qualified aren't you?

Engineers need to do at least 4 years training at their own expense and also score a nice HECS debt.
Doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. likewise.
Mechanic, builders, electricians etc, all have to do an apprenticeship at very low wages while learning their trade.

So maybe we can solve this problem by starting mining training, not paid of course, so in a few years we will not need to import workers.

Oh thats right, we all want to live in paradise, FIFO at company expense, be trained at company expense, be housed at company expense and get paid three times as much as those who chose to do something of similar difficulty but have to pay for their own transport to work, housing and training in just as remote and/or inhospitable areas in every other industry.

[Kieron]

Top post Flappist mate.

Need to pop a bit of fact into this topic.

Those 1,700 jobs are for SEMI-SKILLED workers, this means truck drivers, scaffolders etc not plumbers, mechanics etc which are trades.

Its NOT cheap O/S labor. The companies have to pay market rate which means they get paid the same as the Aussie driving the next truck.

On top of paying market rates, they have to pay the recruitment, visa processing and flight costs for each person the employ which according to one recruitment agency in WA, is approx. $12,000 per person.

If you want one of those 1,700 jobs, then you need skills in the positions they are looking for, no point applying if you an ace diesel mechanic or computer wizard with degrees up to the elbows if you want to drive a multi million $$ Haulpak and this is why people get knocked back when they say they apply for mining jobs.

Train Aussies to drive them? as has been pointed out, there's a high turnover in the mining industry. Spend time (which = money) and money to train someone to drive a haulpak and have them leave is a cost but add to that, quite disruptive to the operation.

Another option? do what my neighbor has done, he payed for his own truck drivers licence and is doing 12 months truck driving in the city (concrete mixer iirc) to get experience up then move to the mines for the big bucks.
He's also in a family position to do FIFO and in fact, he wife easily got a job doing office work FIFO too.

[Brazen]

Hmmm, maybe I should 457 a new accountant in from China, I hate paying mine so much.

And my last electrician was pretty expensive too - the electrical company should bring one in from Indonesia under 457.

The haircut I got yesterday cost me a bit, I'll tell my hairdresser to start bringing in some 457s.

[Maka]

[QUOTE=Charliewool]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Once WHAT starts?

457 Visa's are short term Visas to fill specific short term requirements.
They are not residency Visas and the employees are not permenant./QUOTE]

Umm.. from North West Star May 16th..
"IMMIGRATION officers will be present at the 2012 Xstrata Mount Isa Mining Expo from May 16-18 to provide information on visa programs and upcoming significant reforms to the skilled migration program. The changes being introduced on 1 July 2012 include a new online service connecting Australian employers with potential skilled migrants and streamlining of the pathway to permanent residence for people already working in Australia on temporary skilled 457 visas.
From July 1, there will also be a fast-tracked pathway from the 457 visa to permanent residence under the employer-sponsored visa program, enabling skilled migrants to settle and work in regional and metropolitan Australia."

Sounds fairly permanent to me?

The good out of that initiative is if the government mandated settled migrant tradesman to employ local apprentices to help plug the shortfall of local tradesmen in Australia.

The high cost of the Oz dollar has caused the erosion of our local manufacturing base thats a fact. Cheaper imports keep eroding our existing manufacturing base thats a fact.

The real question is how to create a win win situation between the workers,consumers (which are mostly the workers) and the business sector. Thats for the experts to work out...

cheers,Maka

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Sounds like a good opportunity, off you go up to the mines to live and work.

You are qualified aren't you?

Engineers need to do at least 4 years training at their own expense and also score a nice HECS debt.
Doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. likewise.
Mechanic, builders, electricians etc, all have to do an apprenticeship at very low wages while learning their trade.

So maybe we can solve this problem by starting mining training, not paid of course, so in a few years we will not need to import workers.

Oh thats right, we all want to live in paradise, FIFO at company expense, be trained at company expense, be housed at company expense and get paid three times as much as those who chose to do something of similar difficulty but have to pay for their own transport to work, housing and training in just as remote and/or inhospitable areas in every other industry.

I'm an apprentice, going 3rd year soon so I'll be on my way to be getting trade qualified. I also actually work in manufacturing here in Victoria, smaller scale though, probably 30 people employed.

You can already do mining training at your expense, you've got endless inductions and courses you can do, a HR license is pretty essential, first aid etc.

I'm waiting until I get signed off on my apprenticeship before I up and leave, as I've nearly finished TAFE over a year early. I'm also not interested in doing my trade over there, I'd rather an unskilled role, probably cleaner, etc.

Originally Posted by Kieron

The companies have to pay market rate which means they get paid the same as the Aussie driving the next truck.

From 1 July, employers can sponsor foreign skilled workers for PR (permanent redency) visas at minimum award wages, rather than genuine market rates under collective agreements – an open invitation to low-rent employers to bring in more cheap labour.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...518-1yuh3.html

[burnz]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Correct! And the number that actually choose to head west and take up these positions will be the proof in the pudding.

My predicition is it will be very few. And thats not an indictment on the workers, its simply a fact that its not easy to pick up families and move. Its really hard. But the truth of the matter is the projects are in the middle of no where and theres no changing that. Jobs will still be vacant in the west while people are unemployed in the east. And the world will not end

can you show me the ad's in centre link, seek, career one?

funny thing is they want skilled trades people aparently, but when questioned they really want labourers.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by dimka100

wake up, we don’t live in a communist country,

With mad Labor and its PM, its ongoing destructive agenda, you'd have to wonder.

we don’t divide wealth to the point that everyone is equal,

Even Russie didn't do that, exactly. Always someone, or the few at the top - were quite well off $, the vast majority - not so.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Hmmm, maybe I should 457 a new accountant in from China, I hate paying mine so much.

And my last electrician was pretty expensive too - the electrical company should bring one in from Indonesia under 457.

The haircut I got yesterday cost me a bit, I'll tell my hairdresser to start bringing in some 457s.

Yes you can if you want, that is your choice.

I try to use Australian everything where ever I am able even if it costs a bit more. That is my choice. I do not wish to be told what I can and can't do so it would be hypocritical of me to force others to do the same to others.

[JamesR]

Originally Posted by burnz

can you show me the ad's in centre link, seek, career one?

funny thing is they want skilled trades people aparently, but when questioned they really want labourers.

well i quite often see ads for FIFO/mining jobs in my local paper..

im a fitter, and have quite a few friends working in QLD and WA in mines, its not something im overly interested in doing as long as i can get work and earn as much at home.
from what friends have told me is that if you really want a job, move there.
some companies have contracts that state that they have to hire local labour first before FIFO, and they prefer that cos its cheaper for them.

i spent a month in Mt Isa last year overhauling a steam turbine at a power station, and i think all the scaffolders on site were from NZ and the General Electric guys working on the generator were from UK. where is everyone kicking up a stick about that?

just because there has been a mass amount of job losses in the manufacturing sector, doesnt mean every one of those workers is qualified to do the job.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by JamesR

well i quite often see ads for FIFO/mining jobs in my local paper..

im a fitter, and have quite a few friends working in QLD and WA in mines, its not something im overly interested in doing as long as i can get work and earn as much at home.
from what friends have told me is that if you really want a job, move there.
some companies have contracts that state that they have to hire local labour first before FIFO, and they prefer that cos its cheaper for them.

i spent a month in Mt Isa last year overhauling a steam turbine at a power station, and i think all the scaffolders on site were from NZ and the General Electric guys working on the generator were from UK. where is everyone kicking up a stick about that?

just because there has been a mass amount of job losses in the manufacturing sector, doesnt mean every one of those workers is qualified to do the job.

i think you've answered the question, the one's who are qualified arnt interested. as their no incentive wage wise.
the one's who arnt qulified are nocked back..

thje one's they are interested in is the 20+ yrs experence with out a ticket, RE unticket tradie, who will earn more than what there paying anyway.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes you can if you want, that is your choice.

I try to use Australian everything where ever I am able even if it costs a bit more. That is my choice. I do not wish to be told what I can and can't do so it would be hypocritical of me to force others to do the same to others.

457 Visas are approved by the Government, not me. I can't import workers.

[Racecraft]

Blame the household:------

Your misses,wife or partner doesn't want to move
Your misses,wife or partner doesn't want to be without you
Your kid need you at home
Your kids don't want to be without you
Your going to miss your kids/partner after punching out long hours
Your going to miss your kids/partner by not coming home every night
You can't pay the bills even on mega coin if your partner can't work and have to pay minders &/or child care

Mining consortiums 'HAVE' to pay big money to Australians to compensate the above...

Take hungry workers with a lower cost of living, both socially and financially to fill positions we as Occa's can't do for whatever reason

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

Blame the household:------

Your misses,wife or partner doesn't want to move
Your misses,wife or partner doesn't want to be without you
Your kid need you at home
Your kids don't want to be without you
Your going to miss your kids/partner after punching out long hours
Your going to miss your kids/partner by not coming home every night
You can't pay the bills even on mega coin if your partner can't work and have to pay minders &/or child care

Mining consortiums 'HAVE' to pay big money to Australians to compensate the above...

Take hungry workers with a lower cost of living, both socially and financially to fill positions we as Occa's can't do for whatever reason

No actually mines pay just enough for the workers to forget about their wives, families and anything else.

It is not an uncommon thing, there are lots of girls in some parts of town that will do what ever you want for the right price.........of course even that is cheaper overseas......

I wonder if they blame the household too......

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by flappist

No actually mines pay just enough for the workers to forget about their wives, families and anything else.

It is not an uncommon thing, there are lots of girls in some parts of town that will do what ever you want for the right price.........of course even that is cheaper overseas......

I wonder if they blame the household too......

My post was tongue in cheek

Some blame Gov Co., some blaming the mines.... just putting a completely different perspective on the lack of Oz qualified comitted people available to the workforce for that kind of work

[SEZ213]

The amount of 'unqualified' people who reply to ad's requesting 'qualified' amazes me...I dealt with a gentleman not long ago who spent somewhere in the vicinity of 6K getting tickets and inductions - just to go to the mines. If you want to go bad enough, you will work for it...if you don't...there are plenty of others who will. It's NOT a free ride.

As for minimum wage...there are so many companies who pay their staff the bare minimum it's not funny, and there's no 457 visas involved at all.

As for getting skilled labour for jobs, I've spent six weeks trying to find two boilermakers for a client in Toowoomba...and what do you know...I got one...who goes AWOL every two months without telling anyone...the rest want $40+ an hour to work in a factory...and that ISN'T going to happen.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by davway

Some people DO want to work in the mines but cant get experience ANYWHERE to do so.
Its a bit of a cop out to ask for experience when you cant get in to get experience to start with.

Exactly...our son moved out here and looked everywhere for a mining job. First hurdle was that they wanted him to have his medical and generics...over a grand for that alone. Then they didn't want anyone who wasn't experienced. They would willingly advertise for people hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away to come and work here, but wouldn't spend some time to train someone living right here and willing to learn.

They should be forced by legislation to employ and train people...it's not like they don't get government subsidies to do it.

By the way...getting all your generics, medical, and spending thousands getting all your tickets doesn't make you "experienced"...you are still just a clown off the street, with no "real" experience and no more "qualified" than anyone else.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

By the way...getting all your generics, medical, and spending thousands getting all your tickets doesn't make you "experienced"...you are still just a clown off the street, with no "real" experience and no more "qualified" than anyone else.

No, but it shows you're more committed than most who harp on about how we're 'importing' labour but won't make an active attempt to further themselves or foot the bill for it...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Exactly...our son moved out here and looked everywhere for a mining job. First hurdle was that they wanted him to have his medical and generics...over a grand for that alone. Then they didn't want anyone who wasn't experienced. They would willingly advertise for people hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away to come and work here, but wouldn't spend some time to train someone living right here and willing to learn.

They should be forced by legislation to employ and train people...it's not like they don't get government subsidies to do it.

By the way...getting all your generics, medical, and spending thousands getting all your tickets doesn't make you "experienced"...you are still just a clown off the street, with no "real" experience and no more "qualified" than anyone else.

Can you imagine the union response to a "Mining Apprenticeship" or better still a "Miner's license".