Euthanasia - your thoughts?

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by superyob

The argument that you would put an animal down if it was suffering the same affliction is not a valid argument as it reduces the life of a human to that of equal importance to a dog, cat or budgie's...

I think it's the opposite.

IMO it shows more compassion and kindness to an animal than a human.

[yakcam]

I totally support it. When I was about 9 my Dad who was riddled with cancer, moved in bed and broke his leg... needless to say it hurt, even with dosages of various medications (they used to make drinkable cocktails).

Today, being a drug courier to mainly aged care facilities, when I'm delivering a lot of a certain DD (Dangerous Drug/Drug of Dependency/S8) I know that it's been prescribed to end the suffering.

I wish it had happened when my Dad was in pain.

Kraig

[superyob]

Originally Posted by yakcam

Today, being a drug courier to mainly aged care facilities, when I'm delivering a lot of a certain DD (Dangerous Drug/Drug of Dependency/S8) I know that it's been prescribed to end the suffering.
Kraig

I'm sure this is a mercy to those who are suffering. Instituting legal state sanctioned euthanasia is fraught with danger however...

[mcflux]

If the legislation was well-written and exhaustive in its measures, the risk of inappropriate instances of euthanasia would be an an absolute minimum, therefore releasing thousands if not millions from undue suffering.

When (not if) I turn into my grandparents, with their drawn-out dementia/alzheimers fates, I would NOT want to live for a further decade in which I lose everyone I know, and lose all of my dignity, and merely exist.

This existence is a real thing in today's nursing homes; governed by legal state-sanctioned medical practices of keeping people alive.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

If the legislation was well-written and exhaustive in its measures, the risk of inappropriate instances of euthanasia would be an an absolute minimum, therefore releasing thousands if not millions from undue suffering.

When (not if) I turn into my grandparents, with their drawn-out dementia/alzheimers fates, I would NOT want to live for a further decade in which I lose everyone I know, and lose all of my dignity, and merely exist.

This existence is a real thing in today's nursing homes; governed by legal state-sanctioned medical practices of keeping people alive.

I understand what you are saying Ghia5L but the realities of such legislation are not being debated or exposed. There are going to be unseen huge pitfalls, as with any major societal impacting act of legislation. The argument so far is based purely on emotions, not real impacts or consequences...

[mcflux]

It begs the question why isn't it being debated.

I can't vouch for others, but my argument, whilst emotionally worded, is based on the two latter factors you've mentioned.

Real impacts & consequences - using just my Nanna's example:

* She had no will to live for 10 years and openly/repeatedly made this very obvious, upon every visit I made.
* She was unable to end her life on her own terms, up to 10 years prior.
* The last 5 years of her battle with dementia saw her limited to a 2 minute max conversation loop with stock questions & stock answers. Something she'd said another 5 years prior that she did NOT want to endure.
* Her ongoing existence against her will meant a bed, a shared bathroom, and three meals a day were taken up by her for 10 years when someone else who actually had a will to live could have benefited instead.

These were real impacts & consequences.

[Sabantien]

I'm for it. I think there's certain situations where it's warranted, but the difficulty is those situations are different for different people.

My nurse partner is very much against it, although she admits she's probably been the one to give the dose that pushed someone over the edge on a few occasions.

My favourite author wrote this article on why he was for assisted death.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...icide-tribunal

Unfortunately he has since passed away, surrounded by his family at home. I still don't know if it was assisted or it was just time.

I think it's important that it's a decision made by the person, when they can make that decision. Like many others, my grandmother slowly became not herself over the years. Some days she didn't know who I was, some days she did, or she thought I was my brother.

But she never did express a wish to end things, and fought the whole way. I think both options are acceptable.

[MercurySilver]

I'm surprised that no one's brought up any reasoning why u can put down an animal who has no decision in the matter, but can't check yourself out legally when it's your life and your decision

Its prob got to do with a berthing certificate
orn

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by superyob

Absolutely not! We do not need a legalized mechanism for the ending of a person's life...

I tend to think here you're looking at it the wrong way.

The aim of this would be to put control back in the hands of the person whose quality of life has deteriorated to the point they do not want to continue.

The decision to enact their own plan would be theirs. Not the government's, not their family's.

The decision to not enact their own plan would be theirs. Not the government's, not their family's.

If there is no plan in place then the status quo remains.

Obviously the person involved would not take this decision lightly as there would be a certain point where things are irreversible.

I'm not saying a 'Dying With Dignity plan' would work in every case and if there is any ambiguity then maybe it's not enacted.

In cases of dementia this is difficult. My partner is a PCA (Personal Care Assistant) in the local Aged Care facility and is a month off being a nurse. She works in the Dementia Wing, so I hear the stories of her day and the stuff they get up to every single shift she works. Do I think dementia warrants a 'Dying With Dignity' plan...well actually I don't as this leads society down a slippery slope where we just divest ourselves of anyone we don't think are 'useful'. Although it's definitely not 'dignified' and there is no control it is painless and largely manageable. Severe catatonic dementia or end-stage Alzheimers is more difficult and would need some debate.

If a person with dementia has a stroke, is incapicated and has a plan in place from before dementia was fully in place covering this eventuality, then yes maybe it is time.

The main aim of my argument is to give people who have no future but severe and unremitting pain until the end, who know they have no future but severe and unremitting pain to the end, a bit of CONTROL.

You may think this particular argument is unlikely, there was a case in the news last year of a lady with severe and terminal bowel cancer who had an obstruction towards the end that caused the last part of her life to be vomiting faeces. She was aware and cognisant to the end...now what would you do if that was your mum, sister, grandmother, niece, aunt or daughter?

Meanwhile let's get dementia and Alzheimers looked at, they're a nasty way to end a life...

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

It begs the question why isn't it being debated.

religion is big part of it, but clearly we are not allowed to talk about it. how times have changed.

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

The aim of this would be to put control back in the hands of the person whose quality of life has deteriorated to the point they do not want to continue.

This is the key point.

The older we get the less we fear death and the more we fear suffering.

It's unconscionable that we can be so disinterested in real peoples' pain and suffering that we'd argue about their right to decide their fate.

[Seasoned One]

no option in poll for: YES, meeting strict guidelines.

but, I am for it, just watched someone I cared for die of pancreatic cancer, no cure, wither away and die in pain, all she wanted to do in the end was go out in her own way.
I Think when Patient, doctors and family agree, that this is in line with their wishes, why should there be a problem?

It is not for someone to act out " legalised suicide" but for genuine medical terminal illnesses that cause indignity and pain, why is there a problem, my thoughts

[b0son]

I dont think its something that one should be able to do to another, but I think you should be able to be given assistance legally to take your own life. Better that than get it wrong and end up a burden for others to deal with.

[pottery beige]

cant wipe my own bum

knock me on the heads

regards

michael schumaker

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

That's about all I can say on the matter.

I'm sorry for your loss, and the fact you missed the last two weeks.

My father passed very young of cancer when I was 4yo, his end was not pretty (testicular cancer with secondary metastasised cancers in all other organs, including the spine and brain/liver/kidneys). My younger brother and I were shielded totally from this, which is understandable and it possibly partially explains my mother's behaviour (long story) as she did it hard. My grandfather got to bury his son, his only child, then died of bowel cancer himself. Both of them were younger than myself, my father didn't make 25.

The familial history and possible links to my own long-term well-being freak me slightly when I stop long enough to dwell on it but I take each day as it comes

My mum's side of the family lived well into their 80s without anything special in the way of diets/exercise or even not smoking, my maternal grandfather made it to 82, and he smoked untipped rollies since he started work as a teen. Drank a shipload too, probably borderline alcoholic...he just dropped dead one morning in-between the time the nurse brought his meds and the time she got back with a tablet she'd missed...without a sound and without a struggle. My grandmother lived another 4-5 years and then had a series of small strokes, the last one killed her. I hopefully I have their genes

The fact the medical profession takes matters into its own hands at times is laudable but it is not legal, it's just done quietly. We shouldn't need to wait to the end for some professional to assist us over the edge when the end is coming.

The saints that work in the field of palliative care are pretty amazing people, a lot of empathy and understanding...we should all have some as well.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

No option of "undecided" in the Poll.

Nearly 30 years ago, my first wife died of cancer, aged 34. I did not want to put her into Hospital for that last month of life [undetermined at the time] and rather her die at home with me and the girls, 7 and 9 yrs. and friends visiting.

There was home nursing then and they were fantastic and came once a day.

She was just on morphine for pain management and it was adjusted according as she required it.
At no time did she say she was in pain. We had the morphine in the fridge and they said to use it in the required dose when she needed it.

She died peacefully at home.

That is why I am undecided on the issue.
So many people say their relatives or friends died in pain towards the end. But from my one experience with dealing with this, is that I ask ,why is this so?
Is it that in Hospital the patient does not get the required dosages that they need ??
I can understand that the Hospitals would have strict regulations in this regard, but I wonder if that maybe their regs need looking at .

Maybe at home they know there is one-on-one care all the time to monitor, and know their signs and communications ?
In saying that, I never went over the instructed dosages or timings.
In saying that, I am not saying I didn't think about it towards the end.

It was quite hard for me to write this and bring back old memories, but they were good.

Euthanasia will always be a decisive issue.
And I am still on the fence.

I purposely left undecided out of the poll xtremerus, the last poll I did was on gay/lesbian marriage and I made it for/against/don't care as the options. A few mentioned that the "don't care" option made the poll somewhat invalid.

I respect what you have stated above, and agree with what you've said.

I didn't know how touchy this thread was going to be as it goes right to the emotion of love and caring for another person and their right or not to choose.

All opinions are welcome in this thread, just not the one's that criticise in the negative personally to another members choice/beliefs - that's not on!

Thanks to all for their contributions so far, you've done admirably.

Cheers!

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by supershifty

I purposely left undecided out of the poll xtremerus, the last poll I did was on gay/lesbian marriage and I made it for/against/don't care as the options. A few mentioned that the "don't care" option made the poll somewhat invalid.

I respect what you have stated above, and agree with what you've said.

I didn't know how touchy this thread was going to be as it goes right to the emotion of love and caring for another person and their right or not to choose.

All opinions are welcome in this thread, just not the one's that criticise in the negative personally to another members choice/beliefs - that's not on!

Thanks to all for their contributions so far, you've done admirably.

Cheers!

+1

It's interesting Dave in that you've surveyed 102 people as of 12pm 11/1 and 97 are 'For'.

If my maths is correct that's 95%....so given we're a fairly good cross-section of society (the subject has nothing to do with 'Ford') why are we still discussing this?

Interesting...

[71cop]

Originally Posted by superyob

The argument that you would put an animal down if it was suffering the same affliction is not a valid argument as it reduces the life of a human to that of equal importance to a dog, cat or budgie's...

I don't believe any living thing should suffer any more than necessary be that human or any animal for that matter.
Both of my parents died from different forms of cancer and they both would have gone earlier if they had the choice, that's what they said at the time. I'm all for euthanasia as they were.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

+1

It's interesting Dave in that you've surveyed 102 people as of 12pm 11/1 and 97 are 'For'.

If my maths is correct that's 95%....so given we're a fairly good cross-section of society (the subject has nothing to do with 'Ford') why are we still discussing this?

Interesting...

Ratmick, yep, it's only a poll. Not a parliamentary directive.

As others have pointed out it's a minefield of legislation. I didn't consider that when I posted this poll - it was just to get an idea of how other people felt on the AFF - a broad cross section of car enthusiasts that may reflect the views of others, nothing definitive.

I was mainly reflecting on the sane, suffering folk that wanted "out" after consideration/discussion with their family - sorry "loved ones" - there's a difference.

I don't know WTF is going to happen to me in the future. My ex and adult daughters have joint EPOA over me while I'm alive. I don't want to be a vegetable or a burden on anyone - dunno what's gonna happen to me, but FFS put me out of my misery that's not life as most of us know it.

Cheers!

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by supershifty

it's a minefield of legislation.

Whilst that is true I think that we shouldn't conflate issues.

To my mind, a sane, terminally ill person should have the right to end their lives.

Family shouldn't get a vote at the final decision. It's up the patient to sort it out with their family.

Obviously there needs to be safeguards but we're not trying to get the poor bugger to the moon.

The patient and a panel of doctors should be able to sort it out to the patient's satisfaction.

[Maka]

With this so sensitive issue unfortunately there's a light & dark side to this very urgent & timely conversation.

From the community or patient's standpoint the issue is pretty clearcut, but... Refer to Andrew Denton's quest on euthanasia I reckon.

cheer's, Maka

[MrZ]

I think the youth in Asia should stop interfering in people's lives.

[Gypzy]

It's taken a while to work up the courage to do this because it's quite upsetting. I only hope it comes out the way i intend!
My relationship with my wife seems to have something big happen every five years or so. Chapters if you like. The first five years were great, as they usually are with the dating, the first times together, meeting all the outlaws. We sold our houses to settle with each other in one home. Things were going good. Then she developed lung cancer. Major operation, lengthy and crappy chemo, and beat it. Dodged a bullet, that time!
Five years later and it's my turn for something big! Stage four cancer that had spread to lung, kidney and at the base of my spine. Operation to get rid of the primary cancer, then six months of high end chemo that wrecks your body, but five years on, get the all clear to get on with my life.
The last 12 months have been testing times for our relationship but we're both in it for the long haul. I noticed a dark spot on her back which was changing and it turned out to be Melonoma. As they do, the doctors wanted to look further and found some Liesons on her lungs. These turned out to be unrelated and inoperatable. As the Oncologist put it, we are taking a pallitive approach, rather than a curitive intent. She has gone for ct scans this week, and we get the results next week.
So whats in store for the next five years? Some of the posts in here a truely upsetting. I would not dare show them to the wife but deep inside, she knows whats ahead. Now we have to cram our lives together into the time she has left. And that is a question we don't want to know the answer for.
The last 12 to 18 months have been testing times for the rest of the family as Dad has Dementia which is really kicking in. To see a very smart man go from being an Engineer, to a man that can't connect a garden tap together again is truly upsetting, as is the glazed look in his eyes when he looks at you with absolute frustration.
So there you go. Two very different, real life scenarios but with the same end result. One that still has the capacity to make their own decisions, and decide them selves on their own destiny, what ever that may be. And one that, has no capability of making any sort of decision to do with pretty much anything.
I know what i would do in both situations. Just need it to be controlled, and clean.

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by Gypzy

It's taken a while to work up the courage to do this because it's quite upsetting. I only hope it comes out the way i intend!
My relationship with my wife seems to have something big happen every five years or so. Chapters if you like. The first five years were great, as they usually are with the dating, the first times together, meeting all the outlaws. We sold our houses to settle with each other in one home. Things were going good. Then she developed lung cancer. Major operation, lengthy and crappy chemo, and beat it. Dodged a bullet, that time!
Five years later and it's my turn for something big! Stage four cancer that had spread to lung, kidney and at the base of my spine. Operation to get rid of the primary cancer, then six months of high end chemo that wrecks your body, but five years on, get the all clear to get on with my life.
The last 12 months have been testing times for our relationship but we're both in it for the long haul. I noticed a dark spot on her back which was changing and it turned out to be Melonoma. As they do, the doctors wanted to look further and found some Liesons on her lungs. These turned out to be unrelated and inoperatable. As the Oncologist put it, we are taking a pallitive approach, rather than a curitive intent. She has gone for ct scans this week, and we get the results next week.
So whats in store for the next five years? Some of the posts in here a truely upsetting. I would not dare show them to the wife but deep inside, she knows whats ahead. Now we have to cram our lives together into the time she has left. And that is a question we don't want to know the answer for.
The last 12 to 18 months have been testing times for the rest of the family as Dad has Dementia which is really kicking in. To see a very smart man go from being an Engineer, to a man that can't connect a garden tap together again is truly upsetting, as is the glazed look in his eyes when he looks at you with absolute frustration.
So there you go. Two very different, real life scenarios but with the same end result. One that still has the capacity to make their own decisions, and decide them selves on their own destiny, what ever that may be. And one that, has no capability of making any sort of decision to do with pretty much anything.
I know what i would do in both situations. Just need it to be controlled, and clean.

Must have rewritten my response to your post at least a dozen times...

Cant find the words I want to say.

[vixf6]

Am all for it.
Want to wish all those who have shared their stories all the best. Incredibly strong and brave people. It really brings you back down earth how quickly life can go horribly wrong, so many sad stories.
I just don't get why they can't beat this thing.
You keep hearing"we have a breakthrough, cure, treatment, and we will have it ready in 5 years or so. WTF!!!

[OzriderXR8]

My father died in the UK a few years ago, he made the decision relatively early to refuse treatment and signed all the DNR forms. His wishes were respected (not that anyone had any choice in the UK) and they just administered pain killers until he passed.

I don't know what the law is here, I've heard of doctors and families overriding such decisions and forcing treatment, simply prolonging the pain and frustration.

[cosworthfreak]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

The aim of this would be to put control back in the hands of the person whose quality of life has deteriorated to the point they do not want to continue.

The decision to enact their own plan would be theirs. Not the government's, not their family's.

I think this is the main distinction. Interestingly, the Wikipedia page about euthanasia has quite a lot of info about the debate (over hundreds of years as it turns out): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia

I'd also like to thank everyone who's shared their stories and beliefs so respectfully.

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by Gypzy

It's taken a while to work up the courage to do this because it's quite upsetting.

Brave post. I clipped it only for brevity. No offence intended. There's no doubt you and yours are in for some hard yards. All the best with it and thanks for sharing

Originally Posted by Gypzy

So there you go. Two very different, real life scenarios but with the same end result. One that still has the capacity to make their own decisions, and decide them selves on their own destiny, what ever that may be. And one that, has no capability of making any sort of decision to do with pretty much anything.
I know what i would do in both situations. Just need it to be controlled, and clean.

To my way of thinking it's clear cut.

We allow people who are of sound mind to make their decision.

People who are not of sound mind don't have the option. I'm certainly not in favour of "putting people down". (I'm not suggesting that you are. Merely stating my position).

That is actually a difficult one.

On the one hand we'd be saying that we should have the right to end needless pain and suffering and on the other hand we'd be saying "except for you".

I don't have a satisfactory answer.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Isn't that what they do in Hospital anyway??

They up the patients pain meds till they pass away, essentially OD'ing them and putting them to sleep, seems to be a bit of a loop hole in the system.

I believe it does happen I knew of an extended family member who had their pain medication upped to keep them basically asleep. The doctors and nurses would then ask if "they can turn the patient". This increases the chance of the passing away. The patient was in huge amounts of pain, wasn't going to live so it was inevitable.

[Pedro]

Originally Posted by Fed

I wonder if it's feasible to get the job done overseas?
I suppose you'd have to be well enough to travel then kick back until you got sick enough to want to pull the pin. (Maybe 3-6 Months?)
Probably cheaper to stockpile some pills.

Its legal in Holland and my ex-wife's terminally ill uncle recently took advantage of it. I would think you have to be a national to take advantage of it.