TopGear end of series twenty makes me sad.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Australia isn't as flooded as people want it to be to explain Ford and Holdens dwindling sales.

Even a small number of manufacturers, if Holden/Ford continued to put all their attention on Falcadores and the other manufacturers imported more SUVs, dual cab 4x4s, and small cars the public would still go towards those imports because they fit the needs of the modern family, and modern commuter more than a too big for some, too small for the rest Aussie 4 door.

That's true. But it's more of a trend/want, than what people actually need. A Falcon or Commodore is cheaper, more practical, and more efficient than most small SUV/CUV's, and Dual Cabs that are in fashion.

The trends in cars really show the wealthier lifestyle Australians live now, and the humble Falcon and Commodore just cramp their style.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Buntz

That's true. Of course... we do make more than just the Falcon and Commodore, there's the cruze, the Camry, and whatever else Toyota makes.

But more people may be inclined to choose them through tax breaks and other initiatives.

GM have tried to make the Commodore exportable. And the latest one is probably the most exportable. We the people still need to make a concerted effort to buy Australian where possible, and the Government needs to give these cars as much support as they need, or we just won't make any cars anymore.

I disagree, basically if the market can't sustain a product then I would consider it a waste. Ok that's my basic view, but it's a little more complex because it is competing with other products that are subsidized. But Ford and GM have had plenty of subsidies. Perhaps Ford should build the Ranger and Focus in Australia. As far as your comment on practicality, it depends on what your needs are. I pulled a camper and my ATV off-road into the mountains on the weekend, not a task I could have used a car for. So should we change our lifestyles to fit around the limitations of a certain type of car? No way!

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

it's funny isn't it its looked at that it's not really a loss if they go because they aren't Australian owned yet we gladly buy imported crap. Then whinge about build quality then buy cheap chinese junk off ebay or great wall POS' and the like

That's exactly the point though tezxr8man, and you are completely wrong. The imports are not "crap" as you say. If they were, people wouldn't buy them. Secondly, there so often is not, nor has there ever been, an option to buy locally made for many items, at least not in living memory.

See if you can find an Aussie made TV or microwave.

As far as cars go, imports are far from "crap" by and large. That's the biggest challenge our manufacturers face.

I hate the term "world class" because it's meaningless dribble, but in the context most people understand it, just about all the cars imported here are "world class". The only ones that are not at the Chinese ones, and they just need time to catch up. Ten years or so, like it took the Koreans.

Why do you think imports are "crap"? Most buyers of European made, Thai made, Korena and Japan made vehicles would disagree with you.

[Wretched]

Another video I recommend people watch is BBC's "Das Auto. The Germans, Their Cars and Us."

It details how Britain post WW2 coped with the influx of German car imports and how they were able to compete.
Change the dates to post 2000 and Britain to Australia and it sounds familiar.

[Ducati888]

Post WW2 was a completely different story though. It was winner take all, and winner also had the opportunity to shape the entire first world's industries, notably Japan and the rebuilding of most of Europe. America came out unscathed so were already a step ahead of everyone else.

There was also a lot of R&D from the war that was put in to commercial practice as well. That boom lasted from 1945 right through to about 1980.

It's very different now. just think about was, at the time, Britains best - say a Morris Marina or a Triumph Stag - the woeful build quality, the British government's interference, the unreliability they had, when the world was their oyster, and you can see why their auto industry died the slow horrible death it deserved. They rested on their laurels, had no real competition and the result was arguably the worst made cars in the world.

Our industry was nearly like that too, except that ours were US owned and the cars were better. But they got better again when the competition came. The big mistake was that they rested on their laurels by making the same things over and over again and not reading the market. As a case in point - the old Holden red motor (then blue & black) was essentially unchanged for 22 years. Same engines, same gearboxes, same diffs. For 22 years! More or less the same applied to Ford.

From the mid 90's, the smart car makers told the consumers what they want. Toyota with the RAV 4 started the SUV boom. Toyota with the Hilux becoming more like a car than a farm truck. Toyota defining the heavy duty 4WD in the Landcruiser. You need to tell people what they want. They are too dumb to make their own decision.

Apple do it. Samsung do it. The fashion world does it. TV does it. Make it trendy and every one of the cattle wants one. It just takes the right marketing team to achieve it. Case in point - how many clueless idiot hipsters do you see wandering around all of a sudden with bushy beards? They follow what they are programmed to follow. They are mindless idiots and are there to be exploited & taken advantage of. The new Nissan Pulsar ad does exactly that with a generic vacuous hipster and his generic girlfriend rushing to a hospital.

The marketers all failed in Australia. Maybe they wanted to, or maybe they are not as smart as they think they are.

End rant - back to work!

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

The marketers all failed in Australia. Maybe they wanted to, or maybe they are not as smart as they think they are.

A huge part of marketing is making products that people want, not just making something and advertising the hell out of it.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by chevypower

A huge part of marketing is making products that people want, not just making something and advertising the hell out of it.

Yes, but the biggest part of marketing is creating a need where there previously was none. That's key for all products in the 'want' category rather than the 'need' category.

Advertising is not marketing. The two are quite distinct.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Yes, but the biggest part of marketing is creating a need where there previously was none. That's key for all products in the 'want' category rather than the 'need' category.

Advertising is not marketing. The two are quite distinct.

The need is not created, it already exists. The product is to fill that void. Also, I am not sure what you're getting at. The Falcon was in production for many years, sales are on the decline. How is "creating a need" or creating a product to fill a need relevant in this case? Customers decide whether they have a need for a product, not the manufacturer. Also, advertising is part of marketing.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by chevypower

The need is not created, it already exists. The product is to fill that void. Also, I am not sure what you're getting at. The Falcon was in production for many years, sales are on the decline. How is "creating a need" or creating a product to fill a need relevant in this case? Customers decide whether they have a need for a product, not the manufacturer. Also, advertising is part of marketing.

I disagree. Marketing is often all about creating a need. In this case, it's a need to be seen in a Falcon. The car has always been there. You are correct, but the perception of it is not where it could be with clever marketing.

For example - certain restaurants come in to favour - there's queues outside for weeks and months on end. Chin Chin in Melbourne is one of the ones at the moment. Why? It's not like there isn't plenty of other restaurants to go to. It's because for some reason, these restaurants have become popular either due to clever marketing, word of mouth or because the media promoted them as being 'the place to be'. People just have to go to somewhere trendy, wear what fashion dictates they wear, then tell their friends the next day about it, in the vain hope that they get some sort of envy from their friends at work.

There is no pre existing need that nobody knew about. The want is created from nothing. They went to the restaurant because they were told to go. They enjoyed it because everyone else said they should.

Another example - Coke Zero. It's a 'male' version of diet Coke according to the marketers. Need? No. Marketing creating a need? Yes.

That's how marketing works.

[superyob]

I agree. Marketing is all about creating a crisis (or need) where there is none. That is how most products are sold...

[Rene.S]

Originally Posted by Buntz

A Falcon or Commodore is cheaper, more practical, and more efficient than most small SUV/CUV's, and Dual Cabs that are in fashion

Cheaper? - I think that's one of the main reasons they're disappearing. We can't price them low enough. Retail for Falcons and Commodores is substantially higher than comparable small SUVs (Nissan Dualis, Kia Sportage, Mazda CX5) You can get a fully loaded one for the retail price of a base XT Falcon. Consumers are drawn to gadgets like bluetooth or auto headlights over things like rear-drive!

Whether a car is practical is usually defined in terms of how much stuff you can fit into it. SUV > large sedan.

And no one is going to argue that a Commodore/Falcon is MORE efficient than a small/medium SUV, are they? Maybe if you thrash the Sportage and drive like a saint in the Commodore.

Badge snobbery/image is a part of it, but there are many other factors which shouldn't be brushed aside.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Post WW2 was a completely different story though. It was winner take all, and winner also had the opportunity to shape the entire first world's industries, notably Japan and the rebuilding of most of Europe. America came out unscathed so were already a step ahead of everyone else.

There was also a lot of R&D from the war that was put in to commercial practice as well. That boom lasted from 1945 right through to about 1980.

It's very different now. just think about was, at the time, Britains best - say a Morris Marina or a Triumph Stag - the woeful build quality, the British government's interference, the unreliability they had, when the world was their oyster, and you can see why their auto industry died the slow horrible death it deserved. They rested on their laurels, had no real competition and the result was arguably the worst made cars in the world.

Our industry was nearly like that too, except that ours were US owned and the cars were better. But they got better again when the competition came. The big mistake was that they rested on their laurels by making the same things over and over again and not reading the market. As a case in point - the old Holden red motor (then blue & black) was essentially unchanged for 22 years. Same engines, same gearboxes, same diffs. For 22 years! More or less the same applied to Ford.

From the mid 90's, the smart car makers told the consumers what they want. Toyota with the RAV 4 started the SUV boom. Toyota with the Hilux becoming more like a car than a farm truck. Toyota defining the heavy duty 4WD in the Landcruiser. You need to tell people what they want. They are too dumb to make their own decision.

Apple do it. Samsung do it. The fashion world does it. TV does it. Make it trendy and every one of the cattle wants one. It just takes the right marketing team to achieve it. Case in point - how many clueless idiot hipsters do you see wandering around all of a sudden with bushy beards? They follow what they are programmed to follow. They are mindless idiots and are there to be exploited & taken advantage of. The new Nissan Pulsar ad does exactly that with a generic vacuous hipster and his generic girlfriend rushing to a hospital.

The marketers all failed in Australia. Maybe they wanted to, or maybe they are not as smart as they think they are.

End rant - back to work!

There was a lot more to the video than that.
There was the culture to work, you see how the Germans worked vs the Brits. How the employees of the German firms are embraced, that the union representatives work with management day to day and built (still do) a solid relationship. Even to this day the way the Germans hold their automotive industry in such high esteem, people feel a part of the companies.
On the other hand the Brits saw their employers as the enemy, negotiation was done through constant strikes and threats, it was the tried us vs them attitude.
Then there was same old product being re hashed, poor quality, poor design and no innovation vs reliability, quality and fresh product lines.

I could see the comparisons here.

[Kieran]

Ok, I'm totally for Australian made. I can appreciate imported quality, like I can appreciate the quality of the team that might beat my footy team - but I don't like it. I "barrack" for Australian made because it makes sense to me economically, and for now, my preference for 6 cyl RWD.

But these debates tend to drag on so I thought I'd better write to my local member rather than read through all your posts here (no offence). So here's my letter:

Dear Kelvin

I commend you on trying to support auto workers. But the real need is to support the industry as a whole. I'm sick and tired of seeing more manufacturing jobs lost to overseas, particularly with the Ford closure. What car do you own, Kelvin?

And I'd love to know how a free trade agreement with Thailand helps Aussie workers.

Regards,
Kieran Griffiths

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

I disagree. Marketing is often all about creating a need. In this case, it's a need to be seen in a Falcon. The car has always been there. You are correct, but the perception of it is not where it could be with clever marketing.

For example - certain restaurants come in to favour - there's queues outside for weeks and months on end. Chin Chin in Melbourne is one of the ones at the moment. Why? It's not like there isn't plenty of other restaurants to go to. It's because for some reason, these restaurants have become popular either due to clever marketing, word of mouth or because the media promoted them as being 'the place to be'. People just have to go to somewhere trendy, wear what fashion dictates they wear, then tell their friends the next day about it, in the vain hope that they get some sort of envy from their friends at work.

There is no pre existing need that nobody knew about. The want is created from nothing. They went to the restaurant because they were told to go. They enjoyed it because everyone else said they should.

Another example - Coke Zero. It's a 'male' version of diet Coke according to the marketers. Need? No. Marketing creating a need? Yes.

That's how marketing works.

Ok, I am pretty sure I am far enough my MBA program to understand what marketing is and how it works. The need must pre-exist. Coca-Cola made a diet cola product, not a grass flavor product. Air fresheners won't come in a new chicken farm scent. Needs can be in the form of trends, image, social acceptance, or ambience in a restaurant, the marketer must relate how the product fulfills that need, but the need still pre-exists. If it didn't, it wouldn't work. People would be like "so what if it makes me look good to all my friends?" Take Beats headphones for example. They are filling a need in trendy headphones. The image is the need. That need pre-existed with those buyers before the Beats headphones came along. "Clever marketing" will not make a premium white glove mail delivery service successful, nor will it make cars with square wheels desirable.