Falcon V8 Supercar vs Large turboed RX7 *track video* - Page 2

ratman · 19-12-2005, 11:30 PM

as people have pointed out, it's wakefield and being fairly twisty is better suited to smaller more nimble cars. of course it ain't comparing apples with apples but who cares if its entertaining, leave parity to the recognised racing categories. Both the guys in the rotors I know quite well, Ivan's yellow rx7 had a turbo waiting to go on it that came off an older indy car, not sure if it was in during that clip. Berry used to have Oz's fastest street registered slr torana (many years ago) the EL is getting on and having driven it, doesn't feel like the true v8 supercar we are led to believe, regardless both of them would be 'owned' by the new king of wakefield - 4cyl rx7. to give you an idea of how good this thing is, paul stokell's lambo has done a 59sec lap, v8 supercars run about the minute flat, formula 3s get 54-55, john bowe has pulled a 58 in a 360 modena, the quasi rotor - actually runs a turbo 4cyl nissan motor, pulled a 52 a couple of weeks ago. apparently it's street registered too - but this is still to be confirmed, imagine rockin up to that at the lights. anyway, nothing rumbles like the 8s out there.

Gammaboy · 19-12-2005, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTS_300_Coupe

No, but it certainly does help.
Especially in the RX7's case with its already superb handling.

The only parts of that car that were the original Mazda were the roof, windscreen and door frames.
Sports sedans are scratch built racecars, often with formula car style suspension (Fully independent rear end), transaxles (Hewlands are a favourite) and full underbodies. Running one of them against a v8 super shows how well developed v8 supers are with their heavy live rear axles, high centre of gravity and skinny tyres to be able to get that close...
That Beast of Riccadello's has well over 600hp and is 2-300kg lighter, and will turn better than 5 seconds a lap faster than a v8 super. Just look at the tyres stuffed under the damn thing! My 2001 CAMs manual says the maximum rim width for a Sports sedan is 14.5", versus the 11" wide slicks that v8 supers run.
Its like comparing a GTP class car to a V8 supercar.

ratman · 19-12-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathXR

Yeah, it's good fun - except when you slide off the track in the wet....

especially if your name is rick bates and its in someone elses GTR, no insurance, wet grass and a very hard bank/tyre wall. saw it happen, have pics and vid - very painful!

GRNKPR · 19-12-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Wakefield. Just outside of Goulburn. You can pay to drive a few laps in that falcon.

correct and isnt Gary Wilmington the guy in the prehistoric v 8 supercar track owner as well??

Gammaboy · 19-12-2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratman

especially if your name is rick bates and its in someone elses GTR, no insurance, wet grass and a very hard bank/tyre wall. saw it happen, have pics and vid - very painful!

Yeah, Heard about that, I believe it was a (at the time) Brand new R34GTR Vspec....

Des · 20-12-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRPEAL

Was a little unfair being on such a tight track, try PI or QR and it would be differn't but they wouldn't have liked the big V8 winning would they...

I don't know about that though. Super Sedans have excellent power to weight ratios and can really get the power down out of corners, aiding terminal speed on long straights. If you've seen these cars race at Oran Park you'll know what I mean. They power down out of Momo like a sling shot, all of them regardless of engine capacity or configuration, great to watch.
As I said earlier, Steven Johnson was 7th or so for a race around QR a couple of years ago and the speed these things would hold coming onto the straight at PI would be quick. Does anyone have lap times to compare? If I find some I'll post them up.

ratman · 20-12-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Yeah, Heard about that, I believe it was a (at the time) Brand new R34GTR Vspec....

that's the one, was a nice looking car too, silver with big chromies, looked like a boomerang when it was all over, never seen a car crumple like that from a relatively 'small' hit, will post pics when I find them.

sbcb · 20-12-2005, 10:23 AM

Awesome!!! didn't that EL V8 sound great working there. Agreed not a fair matchup, but who cares about the ****el engine (yep I still giggle) car. Not the majority of aussie and kiwi fans. Whats the most popular series again? the RX7 supercars, no, no, the mazda super...... nup thats not right - Are yes V8's V8's V8's. I enjoyed the clip for the Falcon, nice, awesome sound. Honestly which was the more fun to watch?

flappist · 20-12-2005, 10:58 AM

Hey guys don't burr up..... it was a setup....

Do you really think there would be a video if the RX7 lost?

I think the narrator summed it up perfectly in the beginning.

"V8 owners drink beer, have mullets and like biffo at the pub"
"Rotary owners like looking at guys with hot bodies like Bruce Lee"

says it all really doesn't it...........

DivHunter · 20-12-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Hey guys don't burr up..... it was a setup....

Do you really think there would be a video if the RX7 lost?

I think the narrator summed it up perfectly in the beginning.

"V8 owners drink beer, have mullets and like biffo at the pub"
"Rotary owners like looking at guys with hot bodies like Bruce Lee"

says it all really doesn't it...........

LOL

:

Des · 20-12-2005, 03:41 PM

Here's some lap record comparisions for you....

Wakefield Park (video shot here)
Super Sedans - 0.59.21
V8's (HPDC not full Champ. series) - 1.00.05

Phillip Island
Super Sedans - 1.31.88
V8's (full Champ. series) - 1.33.43
250cc International Superkarts - 1.33.20

Queensland Raceway
Super Sedans - 1.13.58
V8's (full Champ. series) - 1.11.00
250cc International Superkarts - 1.10.52

Go the Superkarts hey!

athol · 20-12-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Wakefield. Just outside of Goulburn. You can pay to drive a few laps in that falcon.

I did 5. laps in the falcon with garry Wilmington the owner of the car driving he is a top driver drove a jag at bathurst many years ago. I realy don't think that race was a fair fight.

Athol.

RAREV8 · 21-12-2005, 05:40 PM

I wonder how the rotary would go in a steep hillclimb? I happen to think that rotaries are a very clever engine- they produce superb power and create fantastic results in small (note: small) cars.
However, I reserve the right to dislike them-and their small cars.
I have seen many of these so called comparisons and whichever group sets them up does so in a manner as to prove themselves the best.......

:

Here endeth my cynical rant- next post will be a cheery one!

:

RAREV8 · 21-12-2005, 05:42 PM

"V8 owners drink beer, have mullets and like biffo at the pub"
"Rotary owners like looking at guys with hot bodies like Bruce Lee"

Ha HA Ha! That s good!! I'll send that to a couple of my rotary driving mates!!

02-01-2006, 04:21 PM

Wow, it cracks me up how you guys go on about a fair race... how the rotary is lighter blah blah. The little 12A engine is only 70ci. Sure, it's a silly comparison to race the two, but ok, you want a fair match-up? I'd like to see a 70ci V8 make ANY sort of power. It's funny when you talk fair but fail to mention Cubic Inches. But like they say, there's no substitute for cubic inches.. is there?

Casper · 02-01-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

Wow, it cracks me up how you guys go on about a fair race... how the rotary is lighter blah blah. The little 12A engine is only 70ci. Sure, it's a silly comparison to race the two, but ok, you want a fair match-up? I'd like to see a 70ci V8 make ANY sort of power. It's funny when you talk fair but fail to mention Cubic Inches. But like they say, there's no substitute for cubic inches.. is there?

Would almost be as funny as a 302ci rotary.. it would rev to maybe 500rpm before exploding. Centifugal force would have the rotor out the side of the block. The two engine capacities cannot be compared as neither would work at the other engines ci capacity.

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

Wow, it cracks me up how you guys go on about a fair race... how the rotary is lighter blah blah. The little 12A engine is only 70ci. Sure, it's a silly comparison to race the two, but ok, you want a fair match-up? I'd like to see a 70ci V8 make ANY sort of power. It's funny when you talk fair but fail to mention Cubic Inches. But like they say, there's no substitute for cubic inches.. is there?

Erm, 1st of all, its a Turbo... don't forget the days of the 1200hp tubo f1 cars, they were only 1500cc.... and some were turbo v8s too

2nd off all, the "70ci" of the rotary is a misnomer... to quote a cosworth engineer on a mailing list i'm on... "That's right, the RX engine is NO 1.3. If you calculate the firing frequency (as the engine is internally geared up) through the engine turns out to be equivalent to a 3.9l V6 with peak power at 5500rpm. The torque also *looks* poor as the engine is internally geared up ie output shaft frequency is lower than an equivalent piston engine ie a bit like saying a bike engine's speed is measured at the clutch basket after the primary reduction!
The torque then comes out a third higher to be properly comparable with a "normal" engine.
The fuel economy doesn't look quite so awful when you think about then engine in this way. The marketing department are shooting themselves in the foot with this 1.3 nonsense. All Engine development types snigger to themselves when this subject gets brought up in articles!!
All this means that a rotary is not a very efficient way to make power. Piston engines make the power figures you mention so by comparing properly we are actually seeing that the rotary is not as good as they would like us to think it is eg headline figures 1.3l 227hp @ 9000rpm looks great whereas 3.9l 227bhp @ 5500rpm looks a little like it might have pushrods....
The point that is made by this comparison is that when we compare like with like, making 228hp at 5500 is not that good. Higher actual speeds are not easily achievable with a rotary due to restrictive ports, poor gas exchange etc etc. when compared with a piston engine.
For the torque figure remember I said that that was the flywheel figure and that the crank runs faster than the engine fires eg peak power is equivalent to 5500rpm. Thus torque also has to multiplied up by a corresponding amount. ie because we are running the engine at a lower gear ratio we would actually be making more torque if we were to take account of this ratio properly. So your 156 is actually 156*1.5 = 234. So not as far off as might be expected.
Remember this torque figure is also developed at 2/3 flywheel rpms if we want to compare like with like ie there is a gear ratio between the rotor and the flywheel. No such ratio exists on a normal piston engine so we have to compensate for this in our sums.
Easy way to think of it is like comparing a machine gun with a minigun..... One fires a lot faster than the other despite the fact that either gun only fires one barrel at once..."
So, given he's talking about the 1.3 renisis motor, and the hero of the video is a 12a, you'd be a bit lame if you rolled up with a 3.6l turbo only putting out 450 brake woudn't you?

The main point about it not being a fair race is that it's 2 cars built to different sets of rules... the v8s in Sports sedans wipe the floor with the rotors, full stop. Rolling up on a sports sedan grid with a v8 super is a bit like taking a knife to a gunfight....

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 04:52 PM

Oh, and while we're at it, if you put together a 1200cc v8 from bits of the current crop of 600cc sports bikes, you'd have a naturally aspirated 240hp. and a 17,000rpm redline. and thats Production stock parts.

The 990cc MotoGP bikes are pushing 240hp.... naturally aspirated.

02-01-2006, 05:04 PM

No point getting into an arguement, but Casper... you say a 302ci rotary will blow-up over 500rpm, why? Do you have scientific proof or is it just because you say so?

And Gammaboy... i could quote several other people with a different point of view. A "Cosworth Engineer" said it so it must be true. 70ci's was for a 12A, you are talking about the latest technology 13B.

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 05:32 PM

Well, the fact that it's referencing the latest technology 13B makes it even more sad and pathetic for the thermodynamic performance of a rotary doesn't it? Latest technology production motor that approaches the performance of a eighties Buick v6?

The reality of it all, is that Rotaries, while making substantial hp for their physical size, are really pretty ordinary in terms of their thermodynamic behaviour. From a heat transfer and flame front propagation point of view, they have extremly poor combustion chamber shapes, hence the need for 2 plugs per chamber to achieve a barely acceptable burn. The large surface area to volume ratio of the combustion chamber means that they dump alot of heat into the cooling system instead of making power with it, for instance, a 500hp rotary will need oil coolers big enough to cool a 800hp reciprocating engine, and thats in addition to the radiator....
Then theres the ports.... anyone who's spent much time inside engines with modern port shapes (which i have spent some time with, both 2 stroke and four stroke)would be able to tell you that the gas flow through the rotaries sucks (pardon the pun). The inlet charge, which in a naturally aspirated engine has the least energy in its flow, generally relies on inertia effects through tuned intake lengths and exhaust driven scavenging. Thats pretty damn hard to achieve when you have a port that makes a hard 90degree turn into the chamber. Its why peripheral porting has is so effective a modification. Its why rotaries respond so well to forced induction.
The exhaust port, while being peripheral and stright through, is severly limited by the flow effects of the sharp corners on its entrance that are brought about by the fact that the apex seal has to ride the inside of the chamber...

Simply put though, they're compact but inefficient. The old fashioned poppet valved reciprocating engine with its 100+ years of continous development is pretty hard to beat in terms of thermodynamic efficiency (hp/lb/hr - horsepower per lb fuel per hour). Two strokes are about the only thing that comes close, both at the efficiency end (massive ship diesels and generators) and the hp end, 180hp from 500cc naturally aspirated is pretty damn good if you ask me.

Oh, and have have yet to find fault with anything else this Cosworth engineer has stated in the 4 years he's been posting to the list, I merely stated it was from his hand rather than pretend it was my own writing. Everything else thats not in blue is my writing. For the life of me though, I don't know why I'm arguing with someone who has yet to grasp the concept of capitalisation when typing something as simple as a username.

02-01-2006, 05:37 PM

Stop Rambling on, just line your 70ci V8 up for a fair race like we all talk about.

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

Stop Rambling on, just line your 70ci V8 up for a fair race like we all talk about.

Turbo or non turbo?

02-01-2006, 05:46 PM

Wow... for someone who doesn't know why they are arguing, you sure put a lot of time into your replies. You could write an essay on the finer points of engine design. Your humiliation of my username was a nice touch too.

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

Wow... for someone who doesn't know why they are arguing, you sure put a lot of time into your replies. You could write an essay on the finer points of engine design. Your humiliation of my username was a nice touch too.

Glad to see you eventually took the time to read my replies... I keep forgetting its school holidays.

02-01-2006, 05:52 PM

Wow, another insult. I get the feeling you've done this sorta thing before. Are you sure you don't like arguing?

TZENU · 02-01-2006, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Hey guys don't burr up..... it was a setup....

Do you really think there would be a video if the RX7 lost?

I think the narrator summed it up perfectly in the beginning.

"V8 owners drink beer, have mullets and like biffo at the pub"
"Rotary owners like looking at guys with hot bodies like Bruce Lee"

says it all really doesn't it...........

That is a perfect sum up of Hi-Octane full stop... It is an import racing DVD so its obvious. Has anyone seen the 3rd one? When the viper (cant remember?!?) flew off the cliff???

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

I get the feeling you've done this sorta thing before.

what? dealt with idiots who make uninformed comments?
your comment that started this all was

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

I'd like to see a 70ci V8 make ANY sort of power

and the reality of it is, a 1200cc V8 has the potential to develop more power than you'd know what to do with. chuck 60 psi boost in it and it'll make 1000hp. rev it to 17,000rpm n/a and it'll make 240+ hp.

02-01-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

what? dealt with idiots who make uninformed comments?
your comment that started this all was
and the reality of it is, a 1200cc V8 has the potential to develop more power than you'd know what to do with. chuck 60 psi boost in it and it'll make 1000hp. rev it to 17,000rpm n/a and it'll make 240+ hp.

Has the potential? Are you being hypothetical? Has one been built or are you just saying it COULD happen? And you really should stop it with the insults. Why can't people be nice to each other?

Redrum · 02-01-2006, 06:06 PM

What a w#@k!! I am surprised this clip was not in Japanese and sub titled. Why do they keep trying to compare their cars against our V8s. I don't give a damn about rice burners. I think it is similiar to the little man syndrome.

Look at ME!!! :jab:

Gammaboy · 02-01-2006, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meNaCe

Has the potential? Are you being hypothetical? Has one been built or are you just saying it COULD happen?

ok. mass produced 600cc inline 4 cyl. 2006 Yamaha YZF R6: 133hp at 14,500rpm
Its fairly simple to build a v8 from motorbike inline 4s (there are a couple of Hyabusa based units available, and a FZR 1000 based unit around), so 266hp from 1200cc is simple maths.
990cc v5 in Honda's MotoGP bike makes over 240hp.
1980s BMW Turbo F1 motor made 1200+ hp from 1500cc, using a head designed in the 70s and a block designed in the 50s. Add a sprinkling of modern engine management technology and 1000hp from 1200cc is not out of the question.