Outrageous Citylink Classes

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

If there was no toll roads, youd just have greater taxes from the state. Money cant come from nowhere, and its going to come from you someway or another to pay for the road.
Like I said before, id rather a private company owning it than the Government.

I would rather the government own all public utilities,for one they would employ more people in good jobs,nowadays all they employ are inspectors,and you see these little road maintenance mobs getting around in 30yr old trucks,its ALL bottom dollar,except for what suits them,big commissions to advertisers,consultants and on and on..
The money is there,their mates just wouldnt be able to get there hands on it if it was public,and they wouldnt get the big $$$ consultancy jobs when they retire,or for family and friends.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by old_phoon

I'm sure that "down the road", say 10yrs or so the private company that built the road will have to be rescued at the taxpayers expense. That will be on top of the extra money the taxpayers had to fork out to cover the original blow-out of building it in the 1st place. On top of that, every year or so the tolls will increase because the company will claim the usage/revenue isn't meeting forecasts made several years ago.
Private enterprise is only interested in making money - they are not neccissarily any better (in many cases worse!) than direct government involvement - I personally hope that PPI (public-private initiatives) DO NOT become the norm, they dont work in USA / UK and they wont work here.
F

Is it not too late?

Hasnt the NSW state government already sold a lot of this infrastructure (sorry, not sold, entered a public-private partnership lol) to Macquarie Bank led consortiums?

Originally Posted by all4ford

No disrespect but I think its funny some people haven't heard of toll roads, because they're so common and been around for years on the east coast over here, certainly wish I'd never heard of them. lol

Probably the most used road on the way into Sydney from the South and West would be the M5 Toll way which costs $3.30 each way to use. It saves heaps of time, if you aren't travelling in peak hour. Peak hour on this road is a car park. Too many cars, too many people doing under the speed limit in the right lane!

Its $3.80 since November.

On a trip to work, Campbelltown to North Sydney, M5 $3.80 + Eastern Distributor/Harbour Bridge or Tunnel $4.50. Trip back is Sydney Harbour Bridge $3 + M5 $3.80.

60km each way at 7.5l/100km = 9l for 120km @ $1.16 for petrol (although it has come down lately) = $10.50

Each day I drive it costs around $25. Makes the $42 train ticket for 7 days look cheap. And its usually quicker.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Its $3.80 since November.

On a trip to work, Campbelltown to North Sydney, M5 $3.80 + Eastern Distributor/Harbour Bridge or Tunnel $4.50. Trip back is Sydney Harbour Bridge $3 + M5 $3.80.

60km each way at 7.5l/100km = 9l for 120km @ $1.16 for petrol (although it has come down lately) = $10.50

Each day I drive it costs around $25. Makes the $42 train ticket for 7 days look cheap. And its usually quicker.

You must be one of these lucky people that get free parking in the city? I imagine once you factor in the cost of parking in sydney (if you have to), you're looking at a reasonably expensive drive to work lol.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by old_phoon

Private enterprise is only interested in making money - they are not neccissarily any better (in many cases worse!) than direct government involvement - I personally hope that PPI (public-private initiatives) DO NOT become the norm, they dont work in USA / UK and they wont work here.

We can thank Paul Keating for a lot of this. Although Jeff Kennett likes to take credit for most of the things that happened under his dictatorship, Paul Keating set up a system of what are known as Major Infrastructure Bonds to assist large overseas consortiums to invest in Australia. Without these bonds, City Link may not have existed.

Originally Posted by old_phoon

I'm sure that "down the road", say 10yrs or so the private company that built the road will have to be rescued at the taxpayers expense. That will be on top of the extra money the taxpayers had to fork out to cover the original blow-out of building it in the 1st place. On top of that, every year or so the tolls will increase because the company will claim the usage/revenue isn't meeting forecasts made several years ago.

This scenario will never happen with City Link in Melbourne. They have set the system up so that it can’t fail. There is no easy way around it. City Link’s profits increase every year.

I’m pretty sure that City Link’s tolls are indexed to inflation. Either that or they have some other scale that they go by. Tolls generally go up a few times a year, although only by a small amount. The price rises are in the original contract, so there’s nothing anyone can do to change it.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

We can thank Paul Keating for a lot of this. Although Jeff Kennett likes to take credit for most of the things that happened under his dictatorship, Paul Keating set up a system of what are known as Major Infrastructure Bonds to assist large overseas consortiums to invest in Australia. Without these bonds, City Link may not have existed.

And Im sure HE is still reaping benefit for that initiative.
The governments he was involved with made one of the best liberal governments we ever had,so much for democracy in the 2 party system..

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

You must be one of these lucky people that get free parking in the city? I imagine once you factor in the cost of parking in sydney (if you have to), you're looking at a reasonably expensive drive to work lol.

Yeah, got me a parking pass under the office building. otherwise add another $18 per day

[all4ford]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Its $3.80 since November.

Shows how often I travel to the city. lol

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Also, IMO the less the Government owns the better, if youve ever worked for them you'll see how much time and money is wasted. Private enterprise will always be more efficient as they have shareholders to answer to.

Would have to agree here, practically any government run organisation is run poorly with massive amounts of wastage. Take Telstra for example, there are supervisors supervising each other.

Although, with shareholders to answer to, it means private businesses must make a profit, so the best interests of the community are not always fully considered. It would be good if the Government could just fork out the money from our taxes, but I guess there are other areas in which they need to spend our money. : Like an inquiry into who ate the prime minister's lunch on 15/02/2000 (the inquiry is still continuing as all 50 witnesses are called again for further evidence).

[all4ford]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Yeah, got me a parking pass under the office building. otherwise add another $18 per day

Thats lucky, I have a friend working in the city, who on his wage, just really couldn't afford to drive to the city. Personally I couldn't put up with that many people on the road, I've done the trip a couple of times home from the city in peak hour and I wanted to jump out of my car and kill everyone for driving so damn slow. :jab:

[kiwikid10]

Try this one,

M5 for 10 Km $3.80 then M7 for 30Km $7.20 =$11.00 1 way, so for 1 day's travel on toll roads $22 x 5 days a week =$110 not including petrol etc.

However I am lucky enough to have a company car with company paid e-pass.
Now that's pillaging on a large scale by the PPI's.
And all the motorways lack enough lanes already due to lack of foresight.

I love spending over an hour each day going to work due to traffic jams!

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by kiwikid10

And all the motorways lack enough lanes already due to lack of foresight.

Its not lack of foresight at all,they know very well the overcrowding it would have,they just dont care about that though,all they care about is getting the biggest profit at the smallest investment they can,they will always put less lanes in,cheaper to build,so what if you spend an extra half hour travelling,they still get your $$$$$$

[XR Martin]

And it only takes one muppet in a shitbox to break down to cause a right royal mess.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

So would a Falcon Ute be classed as a Cab-chassis under that Citylink classification?

A Falcon ute is charged a car rate, so instead of buying an XR8 ute i chose a more family friendly duel cab with good economy and get slugged for it. :togo:
My car is based on a Pathfinder which is classified as a car:

Pathfinder :


My Navara:

[Mechan1k]

You get used to the tolls after a while.
Being a courier most of the time I try and avoid the buggers ... but when I am flat chat busy I use them (otherwise I'd have no chance in getting stuff delivered sometimes).

Plus for my main job I work in Chatswood ... and travel in from Kurrajong as well ... aso i am using the M7 and M2 .... doing courier work I use all toll roads.

I lose count of my toll costs ... it just keeps coming out of my account at an alarming rate. Thnk goodness the M7 is capped ... otherwise I'd be very broke.

I think the last time I checked my toll account it was around the $700-$800 a quarter.
I pay for the convenience ... stuff getting screwed in Sydney traffic.

But I also know the times when to avoid most toll roads ... that's when knowing the back streets to most suburbs helps in getting home quicker than using tollroads.

[XRchic]

Adelaide. No tolls. And a VERY VERY average road system, especially roads to and from the city. Absolute rubbish.

[Falcon Coupe]

I recieved an email today :

Dear Mr ******,

Thank you for your feedback.

CityLink prices are bound by the requirements of an agreement between the State of Victoria and CityLink Melbourne.

Yours sincerely,

Allison Avellino
CityLink Melbourne Limited.

So, as for any new charge on Vic roads, it seems Bracks is to thank.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

I recieved an email today :




So, as for any new charge on Vic roads, it seems Bracks is to thank.

Yeah blame Bracks why not, best look back a few more years and see who put all this road toll crap in place, the Tullamarine fwy was an existing road and the same guy thought he would toll that too.

[XRchic]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

I recieved an email today :




So, as for any new charge on Vic roads, it seems Bracks is to thank.

I cant believe he got back into govt over there, that is amazing. What a tool. I just cant stand looking at his smug, stupid looking face. And Im from SA!!! *sorry, bit off topic*

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XRchic

Adelaide. No tolls. And a VERY VERY average road system, especially roads to and from the city. Absolute rubbish.

Lol, whaddya mean Jac?? There's nothing i love more than creeping up Glen Osmond Road on a hot afternoon when going to visit friends in the hills.

Even better in a manual, hey??

Yep.. the worst thing about adelaide roads is we have great highways servicing our northern and southern/south eastern suburbs... which then dump everyone onto a 2 lane road for the last 5km drive into the city. I dont get it. SE freeway brings 3 lanes of traffic down the hill at 100km/hr... then dumps them onto the likes of Glenn osmond, portrush and *shudder* cross rd.

[coupdy do]

Move to Perth no Tolls (in the whole state) and the roads are better.
I just love paying for my daily traffic jam on the citilink carpark and im travelling against the traffic.
I called Citilink asking them why i should pay when im sitting in a jam and the guy told me that the roads were not the problem- the problem is that there is too many cars on the road! Thats like a publican saying there is too many drinkers :

[ED Classic]

Well you will both have your wish over govnmt vs private as private will own/run it till 2018-2022 depending on budget, then the government takes it over without tolls. If Bracks had to put tolls on Scoresby he should have atleast made a simmilar agreement rather than rob the public even when the roads long paid for.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Yeah blame Bracks why not, best look back a few more years and see who put all this road toll crap in place, the Tullamarine fwy was an existing road and the same guy thought he would toll that too.

I have no problem paying a toll, my problem lies with paying nearly double that of a car, a regulation that came about in the last few months.

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

If there was no toll roads, youd just have greater taxes from the state. Money cant come from nowhere, and its going to come from you someway or another to pay for the road.
Like I said before, id rather a private company owning it than the Government.

Just on this issue - you cant prove that a private company isnt just as inefficient as a government - they can **** just as much money up the wall on perks for the bosses as any government can. Sometimes much more. Most shareholders dont have a clue what actually goes on in a private company - all they see is an annual report which is designed to say as little as possible.

In addition to this a private company with shareholders have to pay a dividend to the shareholder - guess where that comes from brightspark. From what you pay in tolls.

Your arguement just doesnt hold up.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by MarkAW

Just on this issue - you cant prove that a private company isnt just as inefficient as a government - they can **** just as much money up the wall on perks for the bosses as any government can. Sometimes much more. Most shareholders dont have a clue what actually goes on in a private company - all they see is an annual report which is designed to say as little as possible.

In addition to this a private company with shareholders have to pay a dividend to the shareholder - guess where that comes from brightspark. From what you pay in tolls.

Your arguement just doesnt hold up.

So you want a Socialist/Communist Government then? Where the state controls and owns everything.
A government that has proven not to work over history.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by MarkAW

Just on this issue - you cant prove that a private company isnt just as inefficient as a government - they can **** just as much money up the wall on perks for the bosses as any government can. Sometimes much more. Most shareholders dont have a clue what actually goes on in a private company - all they see is an annual report which is designed to say as little as possible.

In addition to this a private company with shareholders have to pay a dividend to the shareholder - guess where that comes from brightspark. From what you pay in tolls.

Your arguement just doesnt hold up.

The "perks for the boss" argument is getting pretty tired. Whilst the levels of corporate excess will always be a matter for debate, the impact this has on the overall concept of efficiency is negligible. I mean, Macquarie Bank gets a few million dollars out of the pockets of Sydney motorists each and every day. The occasional ivory back scratcher for the CEO isnt even going to register at the 4th decimal place as a percentage.

No, you cant prove they are more efficient than the government. It doesnt need proving, it's common sense and is widely accepted.

Despite the fact that you and many of your comrades detest the notion of competition, markets and private ownership - its well documented that the very nature of commerciality drives productivity and efficiency.

The shareholders are the ones that demand - through their market activities - a given level of return for the resources employed. And shareholders are a pretty smart bunch - if they think their money can generate a higher return with someone else... bet your bottom dollar that they will take it and put it there. A private company needs to run a lean ship if it wants to survive.

They are also bound by the forces of supply and demand. Charge someone $50 for a road toll and the place is going to be deserted. 0 x $50 is $0. Not a wise move. This limits the amount of revenue that can be derived from a toll road.

So they price elasticity of the toll (i.e. the price people are willing to pay before they say 'f--k off, i'll chance it in the backstreets') coupled with the need to generate an acceptable return for the shareholders ensures the company utilises its resources in an efficient manner.

A government on the other hand, has very little accountability and a never ending source of funding. Anyone who tenders for a govt agency knows they can basically rip them off, they're not going to do anyhting about it. The government has no direct shareholders to appease and no need to behave in a competetive manner.

A govt owned/operated venture that wants to merely break even will cost you more in tolls (or better yet - income tax) than that of a private company who is making a motza profit for its shareholders.

I can only assume the response would be "why does the government have to charge us at all". Unfortunately those roads dont build themselves.

Maybe take it up with Pauline and she can print some more money to pay for it????

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

So you want a Socialist/Communist Government then? Where the state controls and owns everything.
A government that has proven not to work over history.

First up I suspect you dont understand the word "communist" - why else would you include it.

FYI Communism is a form of politics completely divorced from the concept of how a government conducts its spending on infrastructure.

Socialism on the otherhand is the method of spend/control of infrastructure but has nothing to do with the way a Government is either elected or declared. For example the UK is one of the most Socialistic (sp) governments in the world but is hardly considered as communist.

A government that has proven not to work over history.

What proof do you tender in this - what your unhappy with a few issues. Privatisation is not the answer.

Privatisation has its place and so does socialism. For the major absolute necessities - Water, Power, Health, Education and the many other such areas look at the US when you site privatisation is good. In the US unless you employer has a medical insurance policy as part of your package then don't get major sick cause you wont be able to afford the care. Electricity is on average 2.5 time the cost here and thats allowing for currency exchange etc. Education is to some extent state run (no fees) but you dont site this as socialism.

The place of a government is to run infrustructure that in general would be too expensive for a user pays system. Roads are one of these.

Personally I get sick of people stating how ineffective "Government" is at running things that they themselves have no concept how complex a problem really is. All you see is some d%%khead polly and you think he is the Government - he's only a figurehead for the thousands of people who bring you water, transport, education for your kids, postal services, electricity and on it goes. Fortunately there are proffessionals behind that d%%khead polly to try and steer them in a sensible direction but sometimes you cant. Thats when things really f%%k up

As to privatisation if you keep giving this to private enterprise you'll end up with the living standards and economy of Indonesia or worse.

BTW I work for an electricity distributor - a GTE - Government Trading Enterprise - we make a profit and make a return for the shareholder - the NSW Government. We're efficient and effective at what we do otherwise your lights nor your PC wouldn't be working now. Our people go out in the worst of weather at any time of day or night to climb poles to restore your power in the best possible time frame. They're out there putting in new poles and wires while the ground is still smoldering after a bushfire. You think your going to get that level of committment from the staff of a private company - think again - it just wont happen.

[MarkAW]

4.9 EF Futura

It would seem that your sufficiently isolated over there in SA to not have been following the Sydney cross city tunnel debarcle (sp).

Here a private company albeit in collusion with a Government Authority (RTA) closed off all the reasonable alternative routes then charged exorbinate fees to use the tunnel.

Finally the Government as opposed to the RTA (a statutory Authority controlled by a Mininster of the government) enforced a reopenning of the closed roads as the needs of the people outweigh the pofits of the company.

The company has gone into recievership and will probably litigate the Government but in the end the privatisation of roads or any other infrastructure will only lead to profiteering. Where equal alternatives are available as in business fine, but where a monopolistic situation exists the dangers of profiteering is to great.

4.9 EF Futura
Anyone who tenders for a govt agency knows they can basically rip them off, they're not going to do anyhting about it.

BTW What company are you with so that in the future I can guarantee my organisation wont get ripped off by dealing with you

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

yesterday i went to the citylink website to buy a pass and i find new vehicle classifications :

Are you sure they are new, I remember this being around since the start.

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

FYI, in SA, the "free"ways are limited at 100km/hr and even when 'busy', we still manage to keep to that limit. Sitting still on a 4 lane 100km/hr road, surrounded by cars is something you simply dont see here. Ever. Hence, we are often amused by the efforts the eastern staters go to in order to get into the city. It's just that strange a concept to us!!

Haha last year on a trip over to Adelaide I was driving back to the city from Noarlunga along the freeway (one way freeway : crazy SAers lol) and for quite a while I could not see another car on the road in front of me or behind, I was amazed - on a freeway in the middle of a weekday and no other car on the road. In Melbourne you wouldn't get that on a freeway at 3am!

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by MarkAW

BTW What company are you with so that in the future I can guarantee my organisation wont get ripped off by dealing with you

I work for a commonwealth statuatory authority.

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I work for a commonwealth statuatory authority.

Shows you have a lot of faith in your employers ability.

If you can see the blatant abuse of Government why don't you do something about it. Every State has its own version of ICAC (Independant Commission Against Corruption).