buses taking right of way too far

[aussiblue]

The scariest I had was years ago when they had the right hand lane open on the Narrows Bridge part of the Kwinana Freeway. I was at a standstill queued in that lane right hand (I had to exit from that lane onto Fitzgerald Street) just before the bridge with gridlocked traffic one morning. After I had been there a while a double length link bus pulled up next to me in the left lane on my left and slightly ahead and then proceeded to change lanes on top of me. He had obviously forgotten that he was a double length bus and I had nowhere to go. I avoided being crushed by finding the centre medium strip and just about ripping my sump out on the curbing and almost scraping my car on the armco barrier. In response to me sounding my Horn the driver gave me all those rude gestures indicating I was somehow in the wrong.

I rang Transperth when I got to work to complain but they already knew about it; someone from their office was behind me in the queue and saw it all happen. I got an apology and the driver got a talking to.

I also lease a car parking bay in the Perth Bus Station and I find cars in the bus station are often "invisible" to bus drivers. I give the buses lots of room but have also fitted air horns to my car to ensure I am noticed when one of those near crushing moments arises. I can understand why cars are invisible in the bus station; cars are few (those handful of us leasing bays) and thus unexpected and we sit a lot lower than the other buses they expect to see in their mirrors and out of their line of vision.

[aussiblue]

PS I must say most Perth bus drivers I encounter appear competent and considerate of other drivers and I encounter them in big numbers every day in the bus station.

[paul_r_d]

I was under the impression that who ever was behind had to give way, and merge behind.
Anway to save such a problem if I see ANY cars/buses/trucks about to merg, I always just move over into the right lane. Could save your life. This of course is on a 2 lane road.

[smee323]

Having moved to Adelaide from the East, I must say most drivers here can't.
Buses seem to be the worst offenders. I do not know if you are trying to keep a schedule, but queuing across intersections and using your size to get what you want is just plain wrong. Think of the frustration you feel when you see it happen to you.
And red in any language means stop. Not get another 2 buses through and a 3rd after it turns green. Start with a bit of courtesy at the top and it might flow down to the rest of the drivers.

[pauljh74]

Problem with the whoever is behind should give way - the common (but incorrect and extremely frustrating method) of "merging" now is for 1 car to see a long line of stationary or near stationary cars in the lane they need to be in and 100 metres of empty road at which point their lane ends. At metre mark 98 they indicate and at metre mark 99 they turn right and cut in fully expecting the car they passed 0.3 seconds ago to make room. It would be fair to say the only point where that car in the left was in front was at the point where their lane was 1 metre wide and disappearing fast - they should have merged 50 metres back.

I see people merging from the left turn only lane (which is what the left lane has become) because they wanted to pass those extra 2 cars.

With buses, yes some of them push the give way rule too far. If a car is coming up on them at 70km/h and 20 metres from the back of a stationary bus as it indicates and then immediately pulls out - that's very poor on the part of the bus driver.

[paul_r_d]

This thread made me think sbout a certain roundabout I go through everday. I always stick in the right lane THINKING I dont have to give way when cars in the left want to merge. Now I am not so sure. People usually plant their foot in the left to get front. What do people think about this situation? There is one sign that says "left lanes ends merge right". I drew a little pic... dont laugh I am no artist :P

[deesun]

It certainly looks unusual and not one i would like to encounter often but if the dotted lines on the road that you have drawn are the short wide ones then the left lane has to give way to the right but merging back a little way is best.

[KooK]

Wow, here in the states it's pretty clear cut. It's a "First come first serve," type of thing. If you're merging, the other guy who was there first has the right of way.

[Trevor 57]

Why do people have trouble believing me, I have been teaching road law for over 20 years. It must be something I am saying.

"nuff said - I am gone from this discussion.

[aussiblue]

WA LAW FROM: http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/statutes/re...0?OpenDocument

59. Giving way to public buses
(1) A driver driving on a length of carriageway in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, shall give way to a public bus in front of the driver if:

(a) the public bus has stopped, or is moving slowly at the far left side of the carriageway, or in a bus embayment;

(b) the right indicator lights of the public bus are operating;

(c) the public bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving; and

(d) the public bus is displaying a give way to buses~ sign.

Points: 3 Modified penalty: 2 PU

(2) In this regulation:

left lane, of a carriageway, means:

(a) the marked lane nearest to the far left side of the carriageway (the first lane) or, if the first lane is a bicycle lane, the marked lane next to the first lane; or

(b) if there is an obstruction in the first lane (for example, a parked car or roadworks) and the first lane is not a bicycle lane: the marked lane next to the first lane;

left line of traffic, for a carriageway, means the line of traffic nearest to the far left side of the carriageway;

public bus includes buses of a type, class, or function approved by the Director General for the purposes of this regulation.

[aussiblue]

And in NATIONAL TRANSPORT COMMISSION (ROAD TRANSPORT LEGISLATION -- AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES) REGULATIONS 2006 (SLI NO 13 OF 2006) - SCHEDULE 1


[QUOTE]77 Giving way to buses

(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if:

(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay; and

(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating; and

(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving. [QUOTE]

[aussiblue]

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrumentCompilation1.nsf/0/314689FB7C6DF0A0CA2571480080B6B1/$file/NTCRdTranLegAustRoadRuleReg06_NT.doc to see the National Transport Commission (Road Transport Legislation — Australian Road Rules) Regulations 2006

77 Giving way to buses
(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if:
(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay; and
(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating; and
(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.
Offence provision.
Note 1 Built-up area, bus and length of road are defined in the dictionary, left lane and left line of traffic are defined in subrule (2), and shoulder is defined in rule 12.
Note 2 For this rule, give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision — see the definition in the dictionary.
Note 3 The driver of the bus must give the change of direction signal for long enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers and pedestrians — see rule 48 (2) and (3).
Note 4 Under rule 87 (1), a driver entering a marked lane, or a line of traffic, from the side of the road must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic. However, the driver of a public bus does not have to give way to a vehicle if the vehicle is required to give way to the bus under this rule and it is safe for the bus to enter the lane, or line of traffic, in which the other vehicle is travelling — see rule 87 (2).
(2) In this rule:
left lane, of a road, means:
(a) the marked lane nearest to the far left side of the road (the first lane) or, if the first lane is a bicycle lane, the marked lane next to the first lane; or
(b) if there is an obstruction in the first lane (for example, a parked car or roadworks) and the first lane is not a bicycle lane — the marked lane next to the first lane.
left line of traffic, for a road, means the line of traffic nearest to the far left side of the road.
Note Marked lane and obstruction are defined in the dictionary, and bicycle lane is defined in rule 153.
Give way to buses sign

Note for diagram This sign is displayed on buses.

[aussiblue]

and Reg 87 as referred to in Reg 77. http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legi...t&mostrecent=1

87 Giving way when moving from a side or shoulder of the road or a median strip parking area
(1) A driver entering a marked lane, or a line of traffic, from the far left or right side of a road, or from a shoulder of a road, must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic.
Offence provision.
Note 1 Marked lane is defined in the dictionary, and shoulder is defined in rule 12.
Note 2 For subrule (1), give way means:
(a) if the driver is stopped — remain stationary until it is safe to proceed; or
(b) in any other case — slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision;
— see the definition in the dictionary.
(2) However, the driver of a public bus does not have to give way to a vehicle if:
(a) the driver of the vehicle is required to give way to the bus under rule 77; and
(b) it is safe for the bus to enter the lane or line of traffic in which the vehicle is driving.
Note 1 Public bus is defined in the dictionary.
Note 2 The bus must display a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus must be operating — see rule 77.
(3) A driver turning from a median strip parking area into a marked lane, or a line of traffic, must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic.
Offence provision.
Note 1 Median strip parking area is defined in the dictionary.
Note 2 For subrule (3), give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision — see the definition in the dictionary.

[aussiblue]

The example pics referred to by another poster actually appear in the law but I don't seem to be able get them to display.

147 Moving from one marked lane to another marked lane across a continuous line separating the lanes

A driver on a multi-lane road must not move from one marked lane to another marked lane by crossing a continuous line separating the lanes unless:

(a) the driver is avoiding an obstruction; or

(b) the driver is obeying a traffic control device applying to the first marked lane; or

(c) the driver is permitted to drive in both marked lanes under another provision of the Australian Road Rules or under another law of this jurisdiction; or

(d) either of the marked lanes is a special purpose lane in which the driver is permitted to drive under the Australian Road Rules and the driver is moving to or from the special purpose lane.

Offence provision.

Note 1 Marked lane, multi-lane road, obstruction, special purpose lane and traffic control device are defined in the dictionary.

Note 2 An overhead lane control device may require a driver to leave a marked lane — see rule 152.

Note 3 Drivers of certain long vehicles are permitted to use 2 marked lanes when turning at an intersection — see rule 28 (left turns) and rule 32 (right turns).

Note 4 Rule 95 deals with driving in emergency stopping lanes, and Division 6 of this Part deals with driving in other special purpose lanes.

148 Giving way when moving from one marked lane or line of traffic to another marked lane or line of traffic

(1) A driver on a multi‑lane road who is moving from one marked lane (whether or not the lane is ending) to another marked lane must give way to any vehicle travelling in the same direction as the driver in the marked lane to which the driver is moving.

Offence provision.

Note 1 Marked lane and multi-lane road are defined in the dictionary.

Note 2 For this rule, give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision — see the definition in the dictionary.

Examples

Giving way when moving from one marked lane to another marked lane



Example 1
Example 2





In these examples, vehicle B must give way to vehicle A.

(2) A driver on a road with 2 or more lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver, and who is moving from one line of traffic to another line of traffic, must give way to any vehicle travelling in the same direction as the driver in the line of traffic to which the driver is moving.

Offence provision.

(3) Subrule (2) does not apply to a driver if the line of traffic in which the driver is driving is merging with the line of traffic to which the driver is moving.

Note Rule 149 deals with giving way when lines of traffic merge.

Example

Giving way when moving from one line of traffic to another line of traffic when the lines are not merging



In this example, vehicle B must give way to vehicle A

149 Giving way when lines of traffic merge into a single line of traffic

A driver in a line of traffic that is merging with one or more lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver must give way to a vehicle in another line of traffic if any part of the vehicle is ahead of the driver’s vehicle.

Offence provision.

Note 1 Driver’s vehicle is defined in the dictionary.

Note 2 For this rule, give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision — see the definition in the dictionary.

Example

Giving way when lines of traffic merge into a single line of traffic



In this example, vehicle B must give way to vehicle A.

[aussiblue]

Why do people have trouble believing me, I have been teaching road law for over 20 years. It must be something I am saying.

"nuff said - I am gone from this discussion.

Sorry Big Trev; but I don't folllow; what do you think you said (it wasn't clear to me) and what was then said that disputed what you said?

[futura97]

Don't know whats worse - the bus cutting you and the truck of, or the fact you where watching this unfold and did nothing about it until it was almost to late...

also, bus driver must have been from perth.....

[new2ford]

Fascinating watching two pages of citing rule books on this thread. What about common sense? A bus is a public transport vehicle, something very important in the 21st century. No matter how much a car lover you are, you'll all be on a PT vehicle of some sort one day when the fuel price/congestion starts squeezing you off the road. Buses/trams deserve priority, give them the space - after all each one has taken a potential 10-200 drivers off the road to give you more space to drive in yourself. Having a go at them is a bit like kicking Santa Claus in the head. :

[deesun]

Originally Posted by futura97

Don't know whats worse - the bus cutting you and the truck of, or the fact you where watching this unfold and did nothing about it until it was almost to late...

Thats a bit tough considering the truck had the right of way. We must always be careful but sometimes even being careful doesn't keep us out of trouble. Had he run up the rear of the truck that would have been worse. Have you never been in that same situation? Never had to brake or swerve because of something that went on not too far in front? HMMMMM.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Fascinating watching two pages of citing rule books on this thread. What about common sense? A bus is a public transport vehicle, something very important in the 21st century. No matter how much a car lover you are, you'll all be on a PT vehicle of some sort one day when the fuel price/congestion starts squeezing you off the road. Buses/trams deserve priority, give them the space - after all each one has taken a potential 10-200 drivers off the road to give you more space to drive in yourself. Having a go at them is a bit like kicking Santa Claus in the head. :

I doubt anyone would disagree about how important PT is but that shoudn't absolve the bus driver from his action. Why should a bus doing 60 have have absolute right of way over a truck doing 100,thats careless to the extreme.

[aussiblue]

but doesn't reg 77 (59 in WA) give the bus right of way?

A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if......the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by deesun

I doubt anyone would disagree about how important PT is but that shoudn't absolve the bus driver from his action. Why should a bus doing 60 have have absolute right of way over a truck doing 100,thats careless to the extreme.

On face value of the information given in the post that started this thread I agree with you. It is irresponsible to place a busload of people at risk in this way. However what we don't know from the post is whether the lane to the right was clear for the truck driver to move over into when he saw that a bus was about to merge in front of him. This is where common sense comes in. I see this situation all the time where people stick in the left lane enforcing their "legal right of priority". In Europe by contrast people move over all the time when they see a merge from a slip lane coming up. (On the other hand, in this episode, if the lane to the right wasn't clear then yes there is an issue - the merging driver has to exercise caution and slow until it is safe to merge.)

Edit: just read the first post again and the poster mentions that he and the truck had to "swerve into the fast lane" which indicates the lane to the right may well have been clear. So this is what they should have done in a timely and orderly fashion in the first place under the "common sense" principle rather than the "uphold your legal rights at all costs" principle.

[Abacus]

Sod it. At the end of the day I don't give a rat's bum what the law says. The bus is bigger than me, and there's no way in the wide world I'll come out on top if I hit him. I'd just move into another lane or let the bugger in.

[GasoLane]

It could also be that a few Bus Drivers use the "Pedestrian crossing" principle,
eg: you can step off a crossing in front a Truck and yes you'll probably get killed but at least you'll die knowing you had right of way!

[krt10]

Originally Posted by futura97

Don't know whats worse - the bus cutting you and the truck of, or the fact you where watching this unfold and did nothing about it until it was almost to late...

also, bus driver must have been from perth.....

well i wasnt about to slam on my brakes in the middle of the freeway and cause a possible rear end was i.

yes i was watching the events unfold. if i wasnt, then my car would be half way up the trucks tail pipe. i changed lanes, as did the truck and a crash was avoided. i was reacting to the situation. sometimes letting off the gas, reading the situation and reacting accordingly is a much safer option the hitting the brakes

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

It could also be that a few Bus Drivers use the "Pedestrian crossing" principle,
eg: you can step off a crossing in front a Truck and yes you'll probably get killed but at least you'll die knowing you had right of way!

Hahahahhaha ... oh so true.

In the end ... if a bus is trying to merge next to me ... there is no way in hell I am going to try and push them out ... he/she is going to come across and drive over me.

I see it everyday around Sydney metro ... and I have to make it through that traffic alive just to work ... it's called self preservation ... "whoever is the largest wins" ... it really comes down to commonsense.

Sounds like some people in this thread would rather ram the vehicle to make a point ... me on the other hand need my vehicle on the road as much as possible ... so i try and avoid these situations ... if need be ... I allow a gap so traffic merges in smoothly.

Originally Posted by deesun

Had he run up the rear of the truck that would have been worse.

If he had run up the back of the truck ... it means he was travelling way too close in the first place in the freeway/motorway ... that's why the "3-second" rule is in place.

Some people need to take a good look at their own driving bad habits before they pick on others.

The truck and bus drivers are out there on the road trying to make a living as professional drivers ... and have to deal with car driver's that don't understand the physical dynamics of a truck or a bus.

[futura97]

Originally Posted by krt10

well i wasnt about to slam on my brakes in the middle of the freeway and cause a possible rear end was i.

..... i was reacting to the situation. sometimes letting off the gas, reading the situation and reacting accordingly is a much safer option the hitting the brakes

Thats what I was implying you should have done. You watched this unfold, and could have easily backed off and changed to the right hand lane. You obviously know what you should have done, rather than what you did.

I'm not saying that the bus driver had right of way and you and the truck where in the wrong. I just reckon, from reading your initial post, that you had appropriate time to react rather than waiting to the last minute...

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Hahahahhaha ... oh so true.

In the end ... if a bus is trying to merge next to me ... there is no way in hell I am going to try and push them out ... he/she is going to come across and drive over me.

I see it everyday around Sydney metro ... and I have to make it through that traffic alive just to work ... it's called self preservation ... "whoever is the largest wins" ... it really comes down to commonsense.

Sounds like some people in this thread would rather ram the vehicle to make a point ... me on the other hand need my vehicle on the road as much as possible ... so i try and avoid these situations ... if need be ... I allow a gap so traffic merges in smoothly.



If he had run up the back of the truck ... it means he was travelling way too close in the first place in the freeway/motorway ... that's why the "3-second" rule is in place.

Some people need to take a good look at their own driving bad habits before they pick on others.

The truck and bus drivers are out there on the road trying to make a living as professional drivers ... and have to deal with car driver's that don't understand the physical dynamics of a truck or a bus.

Common sense would have resulted in the bus driver taking into account the traffic already on the freeway rather than blindly forcing others to take evasive action. Just because the bus is bigger than a car doesn't give it right of way in this instance.

Just because one or more people don't bend over backwards for inconsiderate road users doesn't make them wrong. Consider the bus driver's options - rather than cut off a semi doing 40km/h more than him, he could have travelled in the emergency lane for a very short time and let the truck past. Normally driving in the emergency lane is a no-no, but in this instance it would be common sense as it substantially reduces the risk of an imminent collision. You usually have a few seconds to choose your moment to join the freeway anyway. Sounds like the bus driver pulled into the traffic stream immediately instead of waiting a few seconds.

Yes, drivers already on the freeway can make room for traffic entering the freeway, I for example slow down a little and leave a gap for a car if it is travelling at a similar speed to me. If the other vehicle is doing 60km/h and I am doing 100km/h, I'll try and pass it, but will brake if necessary or change lanes if I can do this easily. But ultimately, it is the person entering the freeway who is required to merge when there is a safe gap.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

Common sense would have resulted in the bus driver taking into account the traffic already on the freeway rather than blindly forcing others to take evasive action. Just because the bus is bigger than a car doesn't give it right of way in this instance.

Just because one or more people don't bend over backwards for inconsiderate road users doesn't make them wrong. Consider the bus driver's options - rather than cut off a semi doing 40km/h more than him, he could have travelled in the emergency lane for a very short time and let the truck past. Normally driving in the emergency lane is a no-no, but in this instance it would be common sense as it substantially reduces the risk of an imminent collision. You usually have a few seconds to choose your moment to join the freeway anyway. Sounds like the bus driver pulled into the traffic stream immediately instead of waiting a few seconds.

Yes, drivers already on the freeway can make room for traffic entering the freeway, I for example slow down a little and leave a gap for a car if it is travelling at a similar speed to me. If the other vehicle is doing 60km/h and I am doing 100km/h, I'll try and pass it, but will brake if necessary or change lanes if I can do this easily. But ultimately, it is the person entering the freeway who is required to merge when there is a safe gap.

Here here, some common sense. :

[Trevor 57]

As was once said:

"The only thing about common sense, is that it is not common"

[paul_r_d]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

I see it everyday around Sydney metro ... and I have to make it through that traffic alive just to work ... it's called self preservation ... "whoever is the largest wins" ... it really comes down to commonsense.

Thats my motto- who ever is bigger gets right of way... trucks, buses, and semis all can squash us.