The Thailand Special Thread - New Developments/News

[FTE217]

And for the record fellas…..
Having honest feedback from some people I have known in the 4x4 game for a long time in high positions and to R&D here and abroad they all have their probs as mentioned by one else.
Neither ford or toy have the high ground regards which is more reliable but the fight of unit sales some people stand by which is better.
It’s all through cycles depending the model but 4x4 companies certainly knows where the strong and weak points are from regular and off-road use.


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[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Sorry, I only did 2nd year Physics...now if you want a Chemistry reference that's different, managed to pinch an honour's degree in that one..

Oh, you come across brighter than that.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by FTE217

And for the record fellas…..
Having honest feedback from some people I have known in the 4x4 game for a long time in high positions and to R&D here and abroad they all have their probs as mentioned by one else.
Neither ford or toy have the high ground regards which is more reliable but the fight of unit sales some people stand by which is better.
It’s all through cycles depending the model but 4x4 companies certainly knows where the strong and weak points are from regular and off-road use.


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Exactly, Toyota will drop the 3.3 into it once the novelty has worn off the Ranger and they've experienced the Ford 'they all do that' customer service and they'll all go running back.
This idea that the Japs got caught off gaurd is laughable to be honest but let the PR machine have its moment.

Lets not forget, Toyota play in many segments and in the past few years have brought many new products to market whilst others have canned their efforts, im sure the 300 series with upto $160k price tag that they cant keep up demand for will soften the Hilux blow.

Its like a relay race, one team is applauding a fast leg whilst the other is on top of the dias.

[Franco Cozzo]

I doubt Toyota would use their new 3.3L V6 in the Hilux, mostly because they're the white goods queens happy to rest on their laurels.

I think they'll continue to leverage their fleet model dominance, their efforts with the Hilux upper models has been stuff like lame sticker packs asnd they made a backwards step in the current model Hilux when they went to the 2.4L and 2.8L diesels which are turds rolled in glitter.

The 3.3L V6 is still lame in the 300 series - 227KW, its up like 30KW and 50NM on the outgoing 4.5L ancient turd they use.

If they wanted to compete with the Raptor then they should be investigating using the 3UR-FE in the Hilux, it would give them a USP but I don't think they have the balls to do it.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I doubt Toyota would use their new 3.3L V6 in the Hilux, mostly because they're the white goods queens happy to rest on their laurels.

I think they'll continue to leverage their fleet model dominance, their efforts with the Hilux upper models has been stuff like lame sticker packs asnd they made a backwards step in the current model Hilux when they went to the 2.4L and 2.8L diesels which are turds rolled in glitter.

The 3.3L V6 is still lame in the 300 series - 227KW, its up like 30KW and 50NM on the outgoing 4.5L ancient turd they use.

If they wanted to compete with the Raptor then they should be investigating using the 3UR-FE in the Hilux, it would give them a USP but I don't think they have the balls to do it.

Franco, they only needed sticker models to remain no1, up the ante as Ford have and they'll respond to the numbers, its always a financial decision to them.
As if they wouldn't have pulled a Hilux aside and looked at how the V6 will sit by now.
We'll see.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Franco, they only needed sticker models to remain no1, up the ante as Ford have and they'll respond to the numbers, its always a financial decision to them.
As if they wouldn't have pulled a Hilux aside and looked at how the V6 will sit by now.
We'll see.

They've never done any innovation in the past 20 years (aside from the initial hybrids), see how they've all sat back and rested on their hands, then Ford comes out with the new Ranger that omits the fleet specials but puts in the effort with the profitable models.

Ford stepped up to the plate and smashed it out the park when they finally divorced themselves from the Mazda B series platform and come out with the PX Ranger (which Mazda themselves even jumped on board with rather than traditionally the other way around).

They've now stepped up to the plate again with the new Ranger.

Look at the current Toyota 86, thats a nugget car too, massive missed opportunity to come out with forced induction on the second generation, instead they do a naturally aspirated variation of the new WRX engine thats up 400cc in capacity - junk.

The 300 series, they introduce a new engine that's up 30KW/50NM and use an auto with another four gears.

They've completely shunned EVs and have taken a pretty serious gamble on backing ICE and hydrogen.

The only notable examples from Toyota putting in the effort have been the GR Yaris and the GR Corolla as they've started realising the loyal white goods customer doesn't buy many Toyotas when they're geriatrics and even less when they're dead, they need to attract a new generation of customer to the brand (see Millennials and Gen Z).

With the Hilux numbers being number 1, I'm curious on the numbers of private ownership vs corporate/fleet sales breakdowns.

While the Ranger has been playing second fiddle in sales numbers for years there's no doubt they've got much higher representation in higher profit private sales rather than low profit corporate/fleets that Toyota is the king of.

I'm no fan of the Thailand Special, especially at the current going rate, however I do recognise that the Ranger is the best of the bunch and has been since PX Ranger introduction.

Nor am I a fan of the typical Ford Australia 'customer service'.

Like you say, we'll see, I don't share your enthusiasm but I hope I'm wrong as competition is a good thing, which there's been a serious lack of in the Thailand Specials.

[Franco Cozzo]

I'd prefer the hub type dyno but beggers can't be choosers, the test is on the same day on the same dyno.

[ivorya]

Few........... I thought this was going to be Franco's tour of Thailands best legalised Cannabis strains.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Few........... I thought this was going to be Franco's tour of Thailands best legalised Cannabis strains.

No, it's become a ..."I drive a Ford but will counter every pro-Ford anti-Toyota conversation" and it's so boring.... ..anyway I'm off to buy a Hilux because I want the second, third, fourth best ute on the market...

[roKWiz]

Waiting for the Cobra stickered Ranger next, maybe some Drifter stickers on a Triton. an A9X Colorado they could lower them for better handling, streamline the bed area.....oh wait that's a sedan.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

No, it's become a ..."I drive a Ford but will counter every pro-Ford anti-Toyota conversation" and it's so boring.... ..anyway I'm off to buy a Hilux because I want the second, third, fourth best ute on the market...

hehe - agreed, like the Blue vs Red in racing or your football team to this kind of crap.......
I love being behind my team/colour/preference but ffs how about having open eyes as well.
Oh they not as good as they were, so bloody what the general market dgaf.
Ford is finally ahead, happy days rejoice after all our years of being in the dark be it just one catergry.
Its not boring (for some comments are utter giggles) but some takes me back to schoolyard behaviour.

roKWiz yeryer, the cobra effect its been happenning lol

[BENT_8]

What Ford have done with the new Ranger and Everest is fantastic no doubt, im not a fan of some styling aspects but thats a personal thing.

That its taken a platform change and now offer of V6's to topple the Hilux is why Toyota have kept Hilux where it is, they havent needed to invest to maintain their market share, infact Toyota would rather stick with the known on these products than be innovators if it means unnecessary spend and risk.

You dont think Toyota has the people and budget to offer a V6 or a Raptor equivalent, please.
They'll do it when and if they need to.
Same as EV, they dont need to be first to market with it, they can let others dabble in the small market and when it becomes worthwhile they'll swoop in with a more refined product and draw back the buyers.
In the meantime they continue to sell hybrids that punters who arent quite all in with EV tech love and buy in spades why would you undermine that existing market dominance just to be in a race against competitors that still cant get within sight of you on the straight.

Thats not anti Ford or pro Toyota, its reality for an investment for reward focussed company and right now they're no1 without spending bugger all, go figure.

[kevino]

Toyota spent 1.1 billion yen on research and development.
Five per cent up on 2021 which was five per cent up on 2020 etc

Tesla Vw and Gm were the top 3 spenders on r and d I guess as a per centage of sales.

And Jim Farley came out this week to say Ford needs 25 per cent more engineers than other car brands to get the same results.
Having a crack at his engineers at the same time as he cuts FOE engineering and pushes back work from there to the USA.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kevino

Toyota spent 1.1 billion yen on research and development.
Five per cent up on 2021 which was five per cent up on 2020 etc

Tesla Vw and Gm were the top 3 spenders on r and d I guess as a per centage of sales.

And Jim Farley came out this week to say Ford needs 25 per cent more engineers than other car brands to get the same results.
Having a crack at his engineers at the same time as he cuts FOE engineering and pushes back work from there to the USA.

Theres a difference between overall R&D spend and what's allocated to a particular model though.
Toyota have many more offerings to spread their development costs over than some competitors.

IMO Americans have never been efficient at anything be it on the battlefield or in vehicle manufacture, just throw weight of numbers at it until you get a result, hence GM powering HSV's with 7L pushrod engines whilst we engineered a supercharger on to a DOHC 5L for the same or better result.

If it wasn't for Aussie input the Ranger as we know it wouldn't be a thing at all.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'd prefer the hub type dyno but beggers can't be choosers, the test is on the same day on the same dyno.

Why, you dont drive around on the hubs.

I see the Hilux is most efficient overall and 4cyl diesel and by quite a bit, not bad for a vehicle that the manufacturer has supposedly neglected.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Why, you dont drive around on the hubs.

I see the Hilux is most efficient overall and 4cyl diesel and by quite a bit, not bad for a vehicle that the manufacturer has supposedly neglected.

Takes out the variables in the test, they're commenting on a percentage of power loss and they're comparing apples/oranges/durians/pomegranates because everyone has different wheel and tyre combinations which are effecting the results.

In fact they even mention it about the sticker/wheel pack Navara.

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Theres a difference between overall R&D spend and what's allocated to a particular model though.
Toyota have many more offerings to spread their development costs over than some competitors.

IMO Americans have never been efficient at anything be it on the battlefield or in vehicle manufacture, just throw weight of numbers at it until you get a result, hence GM powering HSV's with 7L pushrod engines whilst we engineered a supercharger on to a DOHC 5L for the same or better result.

If it wasn't for Aussie input the Ranger as we know it wouldn't be a thing at all.

All the Ford V8s (prior to the Miami/Coyote/Godzilla) are boat anchors in comparison to the LS platform, the 5.4L Boss and the 3V are all junk in comparison to their GM counterparts.

It wasn't until the Miami came around that Ford V8s held a candle to the LS powered GM products - GM had it over Ford for circa 15 years.

The only people who talk about 'power per litre/efficiency' are the equivalent of Honda fanboys and their F20C, yeah its the 'most efficent per litre' but Grandma on her way to Bingo in her Corolla would clap an S2000 cheeks until it got to 6000-9000 RPM where it suddenly comes alive, absolute boat anchor below 6000 RPM and thats exactly like the 5.4L Boss engines except under 4000 RPM.

Then to make it even worse pair it with the BTR like they did in the BA thats geared to do 300km/h in first gear.

They might make 'more power per litre' with its 32 valves and four camshafts but they're **** to drive compared to the LS platform with half the amount of valves and one camshaft.

At least when it came to naturally aspirated stuff anyway, the XR6T/F6 shat on anything on the market.

The irony is everyone loves the Godzilla and its the exact opposite of the 'power per litre' crew.

[anobserver]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

.........The only notable examples from Toyota putting in the effort have been the GR Yaris and the GR Corolla as they've started realising the loyal white goods customer doesn't buy many Toyotas when they're geriatrics and even less when they're dead, they need to attract a new generation of customer to the brand (see Millennials and Gen Z).

With the Hilux numbers being number 1, I'm curious on the numbers of private ownership vs corporate/fleet sales breakdowns.

While the Ranger has been playing second fiddle in sales numbers for years there's no doubt they've got much higher representation in higher profit private sales rather than low profit corporate/fleets that Toyota is the king of.

I'm no fan of the Thailand Special, especially at the current going rate, however I do recognise that the Ranger is the best of the bunch and has been since PX Ranger introduction.......
.

Ok, so lets compare overall sales for 2022 .....

"Top 10 Cars Full-Year 2022
Rank Model Sales in full-year 2022 Change year-on-year
1 Toyota HiLux 64,391 up 22 per cent
2 Ford Ranger 47,479 up 11.8 per cent
3 Toyota RAV4 34,845 down 2.5 per cent
4 Mazda CX-5 27,062 up 8.4 per cent
5 Mitsubishi Triton 27,436 up 42.7 per cent
6 Toyota Corolla 25,284 down 12.1 per cent
7 Isuzu D-Max 24,336 down 3.1 per cent
8 MG ZS 22,466 up 21.9 per cent
9 Hyundai i30 21,166 down 17.2 per cent
10 Toyota Prado 21,102 down 0.9 per cent

https://www.drive.com.au/news/vfacts...new-car-sales/

And now private buyer sales in 2022 ...

"Favourite passenger cars and SUVs chosen by private buyers in Australia in 2022
Mazda CX-5 – 20,274
Toyota RAV4 – 18,307
MG ZS – 17,805
Hyundai i30 – 16,119
Hyundai Tucson – 12,621
Kia Sportage – 12,415
MG 3 hatch – 11,139
Mazda CX-30 – 11,132
Toyota Prado – 11,082
Mitsubishi Outlander – 10,746
Toyota Corolla – 10,503
Mazda CX-3 – 9483
Hyundai Kona – 8869
Tesla Model 3 – 8680
Mitsubishi ASX – 8398
Mazda 3 – 7914
Kia Cerato – 7868
Subaru Forester – 7868
Kia Seltos – 7562
Subaru XV – 7455
Source: Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, Drive.com.au data centre.

Source:
https://www.drive.com.au/news/privat...ustralia-2022/


Harking back to the days when falcon and commodore were #2 and #1 (usually), because they sold to fleets and as taxies in the days before novated leasing, hilux and ranger are not even in the top 20 for private buyers.

So i wonder what happens to all those three, four or five-year-old hiluxes and rangers that come off lease.....?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by anobserver

Ok, so lets compare overall sales for 2022 .....

"Top 10 Cars Full-Year 2022
Rank Model Sales in full-year 2022 Change year-on-year
1 Toyota HiLux 64,391 up 22 per cent
2 Ford Ranger 47,479 up 11.8 per cent
3 Toyota RAV4 34,845 down 2.5 per cent
4 Mazda CX-5 27,062 up 8.4 per cent
5 Mitsubishi Triton 27,436 up 42.7 per cent
6 Toyota Corolla 25,284 down 12.1 per cent
7 Isuzu D-Max 24,336 down 3.1 per cent
8 MG ZS 22,466 up 21.9 per cent
9 Hyundai i30 21,166 down 17.2 per cent
10 Toyota Prado 21,102 down 0.9 per cent

https://www.drive.com.au/news/vfacts...new-car-sales/

And now private buyer sales in 2022 ...

"Favourite passenger cars and SUVs chosen by private buyers in Australia in 2022
Mazda CX-5 – 20,274
Toyota RAV4 – 18,307
MG ZS – 17,805
Hyundai i30 – 16,119
Hyundai Tucson – 12,621
Kia Sportage – 12,415
MG 3 hatch – 11,139
Mazda CX-30 – 11,132
Toyota Prado – 11,082
Mitsubishi Outlander – 10,746
Toyota Corolla – 10,503
Mazda CX-3 – 9483
Hyundai Kona – 8869
Tesla Model 3 – 8680
Mitsubishi ASX – 8398
Mazda 3 – 7914
Kia Cerato – 7868
Subaru Forester – 7868
Kia Seltos – 7562
Subaru XV – 7455
Source: Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, Drive.com.au data centre.

Source:
https://www.drive.com.au/news/privat...ustralia-2022/


Harking back to the days when falcon and commodore were #2 and #1 (usually), because they sold to fleets and as taxies in the days before novated leasing, hilux and ranger are not even in the top 20 for private buyers.

So i wonder what happens to all those three, four or five-year-old hiluxes and rangers that come off lease.....?

Funny how theres no Thailand Specials in the top 20 when it comes to private buyers, that speaks volumes when you look further into the numbers - the tax incentives disappear.

Although it says 'passenger cars and SUVs' - maybe because Thailand Specials are 'LCVs' they're deliberetly excluded.

More context required on those numbers I think, at least a clarification there.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by anobserver

hilux and ranger are not even in the top 20 for private buyers.

Probably because Hilux and Ranger are neither a passenger car or SUV.

Edit: Franco read my mind.

[anobserver]

Wasnt aware that LCvs might be excluded.

Good point.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Takes out the variables in the test, they're commenting on a percentage of power loss and they're comparing apples/oranges/durians/pomegranates because everyone has different wheel and tyre combinations which are effecting the results.

In fact they even mention it about the sticker/wheel pack Navara.



All the Ford V8s (prior to the Miami/Coyote/Godzilla) are boat anchors in comparison to the LS platform, the 5.4L Boss and the 3V are all junk in comparison to their GM counterparts.

It wasn't until the Miami came around that Ford V8s held a candle to the LS powered GM products - GM had it over Ford for circa 15 years.

The only people who talk about 'power per litre/efficiency' are the equivalent of Honda fanboys and their F20C, yeah its the 'most efficent per litre' but Grandma on her way to Bingo in her Corolla would clap an S2000 cheeks until it got to 6000-9000 RPM where it suddenly comes alive, absolute boat anchor below 6000 RPM and thats exactly like the 5.4L Boss engines except under 4000 RPM.

Then to make it even worse pair it with the BTR like they did in the BA thats geared to do 300km/h in first gear.

They might make 'more power per litre' with its 32 valves and four camshafts but they're **** to drive compared to the LS platform with half the amount of valves and one camshaft.

At least when it came to naturally aspirated stuff anyway, the XR6T/F6 shat on anything on the market.

The irony is everyone loves the Godzilla and its the exact opposite of the 'power per litre' crew.

Taking the variables out is pointless as those variables are what sets each offering apart.
No good fitting 20's and road tyres to a Raptor to increase its efficiency as it detracts from its offroad capabilities.
They wanted to see how efficient each ute on offer is in off the shelf guise, as Toyota dont offer a Raptor spec ute they tested what you can buy and it came out on top of all the others under the same off the shelf criteria.
Offering a Wildtrack V6 with 18's is fantastic but dont get upset if that reduces its efficiency more than the 18" clad Rogue with a 4 banger, it is what it is.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Taking the variables out is pointless as those variables are what sets each offering apart.
No good fitting 20's and road tyres to a Raptor to increase its efficiency as it detracts from its offroad capabilities.
They wanted to see how efficient each ute on offer is in off the shelf guise, as Toyota dont offer a Raptor spec ute they tested what you can buy and it came out on top of all the others under the same off the shelf criteria.
Offering a Wildtrack V6 with 18's is fantastic but dont get upset if that reduces its efficiency more than the 18" clad Rogue with a 4 banger, it is what it is.

I didn't say put 20" wheels on the Raptor,

All this test does is compare the difference between wheel and tyre combinations across different cars, if you did it with a hub dyno you'd be comparing efficiency of their drive lines like what was the intended purpose of the test.

Not only that but they couldn't even test one of the cars because it didn't even fit on the dyno.

The aftermarket has been moving away from roller dynos and going to hub dynos for 5+ years now.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I didn't say put 20" wheels on the Raptor,

All this test does is compare the difference between wheel and tyre combinations across different cars, if you did it with a hub dyno you'd be comparing efficiency of their drive lines like what was the intended purpose of the test.

Not only that but they couldn't even test one of the cars because it didn't even fit on the dyno.

The aftermarket has been moving away from roller dynos and going to hub dynos for 5+ years now.

You cant use the driveline without wheels and tyres so what would be the point of comparing those conditions.
The fact is, in off the shelf guise, the Hilux is the most efficient combo.

[naddis01]

Driveline efficiency results sounds like an exciting topic. Does that actually have any impact on people's buying decisions?

It's interesting to note though, last time they tested the Raptor, the tyres were shredding themselves on the dyno. No mention of that this time.

[FTE217]

Stoopid useless hub wheel tests for an everyday tradie and other commercial use’s and off-road.
Why don’t they do tests with real loads in them of varying weight Or more so all having the same weight their stock wheels tyres people can relate and gives close to a real world result.


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[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Stoopid useless hub wheel tests for an everyday tradie and other commercial use’s and off-road.
Why don’t they do tests with real loads in them of varying weight Or more so all having the same weight their stock wheels tyres people can relate and gives close to a real world result.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed, lets be honest, most of these things get loaded to the hilt with work tools, materials or leisure accessories/equipment, load them all up to max GCM and do a performance comparison.

Real world conditions.

[XR Martin]

My ex bought a Triton and put a massive 75kg bullbar plus 25kg winch on it.
The front axle on them only have a 170kg load... So basically it's going to be overloaded with two people up front.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Agreed, lets be honest, most of these things get loaded to the hilt with work tools, materials or leisure accessories/equipment, load them all up to max GCM and do a performance comparison.

Real world conditions.

To be really honest...in a real world a lot also have a trailer loaded with gear and/or carry racks loaded with concrete reinforcing mesh...where do you stop?


Just testing the cab chassis seems the fairest way.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

To be really honest...in a real world a lot also have a trailer loaded with gear and/or carry racks loaded with concrete reinforcing mesh...where do you stop?


Just testing the cab chassis seems the fairest way.

In the real world they're unloaded driving like flogs on the Tullamarine Freeway with nothing in them, or driven by soccer mums doing school pickups

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Stoopid useless hub wheel tests for an everyday tradie and other commercial use’s and off-road.
Why don’t they do tests with real loads in them of varying weight Or more so all having the same weight their stock wheels tyres people can relate and gives close to a real world result.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In fairness, there was always going to be the dyno queen comparisons once they put this donk in the Ranger (similar to the controversies when SC Miami was released) Everyone wanted to know the “true” output numbers.
Impossible to get a real world figure with 33” chunky off road tyres on a roller dyno…
So, hubs it is! And pretty impressive at that.
How that translates to “real world” drivability is another thing?
I bet me left one, that if Toyota came out with a 280kw V6 petrol Hilux, EVERYONE here would be hollowing for a dyno graph for proof?