Young driver accidents: what's the major issue?

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Perhaps younger drivers would actually drive more carefully if they were driving cars in which they felt more vulnerable. Ok everyone under 21 into you used Fiat Nikis please ;-)

Obviously not as it's been proven in the road toll.

Far more shitboxes out there than there are nice hotted up cars and it's these shitboxes that are getting wrapped.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Far more shitboxes out there than there are nice hotted up cars and it's these shitboxes that are getting wrapped.

I think in allot of cases they are both one and the same......

[aussiblue]

Do you know what % of 15 -24 yearold are on the road? For instance if there is a 31% death rate in that group, are they 31% of the road users at that time?

I can't find that data but from my own life experience I would suggest that aside from those who drive for a livelihood (eg taxi drivers) parents with several pre self-driving teens of different ages and sexes spend the most time on the road (in addition to driving themselves back and forth from work, driving to shops etc they are constantly ferrying their children to school, parties and sporting events and mostly doing two way trips - there and back twice).

I do however expect (again from my own life experience) that if you picked late Friday and Saturday evenings young drivers may be the dominant road users at least in the metro area. I will also admit that in my early 20's I was at one time regularly driving 1,000 miles a week as my girlfriend (now wife) parents lived a considerable distance from the CDB as well as far from where I lived. I saw her everyday, usually driving her home from work, going out in the CBD with her for the evening then taking her home before returning to my place and this really clocked up the kilos (at least it only cost me $5 to fill the tank in those days).

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

I do however expect (again from my own life experience) that if you picked late Friday and Saturday evenings young drivers may be the dominant road users at least in the metro area.

Yes, and that time period has been flagged as a REAL dangerous and bad time for young drivers on the road.

My gut feel is the 25-50 age bracket would spend the most time on the roads, this age groups covers a lot of reps, taxi drivers, truck drivers, parents etc who'd average more hours driving a year than the 18-24 age group or 50 - ? age group.
I know myself when i got a company car at age 24 i went from around 17,000 k's a year to almost 40,000 K's a year out seeing customers etc.

[flappist]

Another point to concider is perception.

We have no problem in QLD with P platers. Why?
We don't have P plates.

I am sure that QLD drivers on average are no different to other states but as it is difficult to tell if the driver is the holder of a provisional licence then we never think "Bloody P plater".

In the same way that ALL Victorians drive crap old 4wds with giant caravans very slowly and cause chaos on the roads. Well all the ones I see do but then I am 2000km from Melbourne so maybe I don't see all the Victorians, just the ones who have driven up here on holidays. The ones that fly up here and rent a car are just the same as locals.......

[all4ford]

Originally Posted by Wally

Do you know what % of 15 -24 yearold are on the road? For instance if there is a 31% death rate in that group, are they 31% of the road users at that time?

I believe they are misreporting figures. Quoting 15-24 year olds as being 15% of the population is open for misinterpretation because it doesn't mean they are 15% of the total road users. Australia has an ageing population, many of whom getting into their late 60's and 70's and it is of my personal experience that this age group does not spend a great deal of time on the road, which further changes the figures as road users are being counted in these statistics as licence holders (correct me if im wrong). In the Macarthur area, which I live in, I would say that from driving every single day of the week, that the percentage of 15-24 yearold drivers (atleast in my area) would be more like 30-35%.

I asked in another thread, not sure if anyone knows the figures, but how many of the holiday road toll (60+ people) were p-platers?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by all4ford

I believe they are misreporting figures. Quoting 15-24 year olds as being 15% of the population is open for misinterpretation because it doesn't mean they are 15% of the total road users.

LOL, Clutching at straws arent you?!
How do you know this? Id say it may very well be the other way, that 15-24 year olds use the road less that 25-50 year olds on average..
But for the sake of working with the stats as they read lets assume they all use the road the same.

My personal feelings are that allot of the driving behavioural issues may very well stem from this "denial" state that some younger drivers have towards the stats and facts.

Maybe if younger drivers just accepted the facts for what they are and allowed them to sink in they might just alter their behaviour towards driving safely and we might see a change in the stats... Food for thought??

[aussiblue]

My Niki/FSM comment was tongue in cheek hence the angel (or ;-) before I edited it. It would be nonethless interesting to see if there was any correlation between car age and youth related accidents. You don't see too much "hoon driving" techniques being practised in old Toyota Corolla's or the like so it may be a factor. Actually perhaps confining them to Volvos might be safer.

[sexy_xr6]

I too think it is a combination of both skill and attitude.

My brother and his mates go out in their utes every single time it rains and they go "drifting". They are all under the impression that they can control every move the car makes (even when it has no traction to the road). I have tried explaining to them several times that even the most experienced professional drivers in the world (i.e Peter Brock) can still loose control of their cars. They just don't listen. I think in most cases it take a major accident for them to wake up to them selves.

[GasoLane]

Oh goodie another poll. :

Why not have one about crashes (there are very few accidents!) in the 25-40 age group?

[Wally]

Fatalities by Road User Group and Gender, 2002 WA:






Hospitalised Casualties by Road User Group, Age Group and Gender, 2002 WA

[suttoinc]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

I wonder about the older car issue. From my experiences I know there is nothing like driving an old car with crossply tires, drum brakes and cart spring suspension to make you drive very very carefully as you just know you can't stop in a hurry or corner fast and there is no air bags or crumple zone if you crash. In addition to my Fords and various other cars I also have a very original EH Holden panel van and I know on the few occasions when I drive it this already very careful driver drives very much more carefully. My first car was also a Mini Moke with slide when wet winter tread tyres, drum brakes and very rudimentary safety gear (headrests, lap seat belts and crumple zone) and you certainly felt somewhat vulnerable driving it.

Perhaps younger drivers would actually drive more carefully if they were driving cars in which they felt more vulnerable.

Ok everyone under 21 into you used Fiat/FSM Nikis please :newangel:

Im from country vic north west of Bendigo
Problem is that a lot of 18 year olds are getting VN - VS era commodores (and falcons I guess but I can't think of one in my town) with suspension that hasn't been looked at in 15 years, unless it has been chopped, no LSD, worn out tyres from donuts, and a drivers side airbag for saftey. If any modifications have been made it is for more power. Every year the cops talk to our year 12 kids at school before they all get their licences. Every year someone does something so mind numbingly stupid that , well, I understand why they have the Darwin awards. Actually my towns kids have amazingly survived quite well, can't say that for a couple of towns nearby.

[Dezza]

It's a mixture of both. I had an accident back in 2002, when I was a P-plater. It was because I didn't look properly and pulled out in front of someone. That was lack of experience, and carelessness on my behalf. It certainly made me a better driver. On the other hand, I see stories of young drivers wrapping their cars around poles etc. after hooning.

[Hardtopxb]

Lack of Driver Skills?I think we ALL have some driving skill that could be improved apon.And this includes P Platers and the more Mature Driver..
Poor or Reckless Driving Attitude or Behaviour?IMO THIS is the main problem.again this is not only the domain of the younger driver(although stats argue % wise against the younger driver) even if a driver has limited skills if they drive within their capabilities they are less likely to get into trouble,as against any driver driving recklessly or beyond a drivers ability to control a vehicle in a given situation this is when they tend to get into trouble. So Yeah I voted for the Driving Behaviour...

[05MkIIFutura]

There's no option for "All those statistics and laws of physics are wrong, I am young and can drive better than anyone else and speed DOES NOT MATTER!!!"

[Squalo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Another point to concider is perception.

We have no problem in QLD with P platers. Why?
We don't have P plates.

You don't seem to have any sense of 'Keep left unless overtaking' either - but I digress : )

That's an interesting point. I wholly agree that perception is a key element in driver behaviour.

Another interesting point is that in recent years the amount of time that new drivers are required to show P plates has gone from 1 year to 3 years.

Do you think this might be a reason why there are suddenly so many more P Platers crashing cars?

Tiered licencing (as used in NSW for motorcycle licences) is the only answer. No! what am I saying? speed cameras are the only answer - of course... :

BTW, P Platers have just copped it from behind today - the actions of a minority ruining it for the majority. Still, that's typical of society these days:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/s...105028091.html

[ltd]

I voted attitude.

Simply, there are a number of contributing factors that have enabled young people and older people to gamble their life away on the road, as well as display what can only really be termed anti-social behaviour behind the wheel. For simplicity I'll number what I perceive as some of the main contributors.

1/ Total lack of police, police enforcement of road rules and presence acting as a deterrent. This equally applies to us all; not just the P platers. The vast majority of us speed at some time, but some drivers see this as open season and just have to drive faster than the traffic. Equally, the lack of enforcement has meant that such things as using your indicators has become a thing of the past. Stuck at an intersection behind a car that suddenly decides to turn right only infuriates others behind and makes them take often dangerous risks. Police actually booking people would improve this behaviour and remove a precipitating frustration which negates the potential accident. Tailgating is equally as bad, and has resulted in thousands of accidents. They introduced a law 2 years ago in NSW on tailgating yet very few have been booked. Essentially, we all need to clean up our act a bit and enforcing the laws would cut the toll across every age group. Furthermore, the thought of a policeman hiding behind a bush or around the bend worked wonders when I was learning to drive, and it seemed to scare the hell out of other drivers too. Imagine the impact that would have on P platers.

2/ Distractions. In this day and age of mobile phones, text messages, Ipods, in car DVD etc there are far greater distractions to driving than ever before. This again does not apply to P platers alone, it applies to all of us. How many of you are guilty of almost having an accident because you looked away from the road to play with one of your in car gadgets? For a P plater who has most of these things, they prove to become a major distraction and only serve to inhibit the little road skills this group possesses. I've lost count of the amount of times I have seen P platers run up the back of a car in traffic, and unfortunately the ever increasing myriad of toys is only making things worse. To put it another way, how would you react as a passenger on an airliner to hear that the pilots are going to be playing X box?
Would you be happy?

3/ Power to weight of cars. Cars are getting lighter, engines are getting more powerful and easier to modify. Do the math.

4/ Roads. Complete lack of maintenance and ill conceived to create nothing but congestion. Some NSW parliamentarians actually think that having smaller roads will entice people to public transport.


Anyway, this may not apply to all but hey, I live in NSW (No Services or Water) and formed my opinion based on what I see. I have an ATPL and quite frankly am often mortified by some of the things I see people get up to; especially when they literally have their life in their hands, or from what I have seen, one hand and in some cases one finger.

[TEaaron]

It's a combination of the two.. You can drive fast and be safe but mainly I'd say it's a lack of driver skills...

A person who knows how to handle a car can drive fast safly it's only when you get some P plater in his VS ss with big subs and a loud exshaust that tries to do the same thing with his 15 year old gf in the car and wraps him self around a tree.

[RIPGMH]

How about lack of training? You get some kid to fill out paperwork and then give them a ticket to drive a car? Why not start kids off in school like at 15 at least by the time they come to drive on an open road they would have 2 years training. People go on about limiting kids to certain cars, well hit a wall doing 100 in a Dato 120Y or a Viper and the outcome isn't going to be much different.Most govenment action is vote grabbing b/s designed to get over 50's nodding their heads infront of a tv screen, no real concern for the road toll. Stop looking for the easy blames and invest some dollars into our kids futures.

[Scott]

The poll needs a "both" option. This same answer applies to most accidents I suspect.

[bessxg]

We learn from experience. It doesn't matter how good you think you are as a driver, 5 years driving is 5 years more experience, more skills. Skills involve perceiving hazards whilst driving; controlling car, judging distances, knowing what you are and are not capable of doing.

Some drivers no matter what age have a total lack of regard for others safety on roads, the majority of young people simply don't know the situations that they are in.

I'm still young, and I will look back at myself in 10 years and think of how naive I was.

[LTDHO]

Why can't i select both?

As both are equally the answer.

I woundn't say I'm an old driver, but the attitute I get from the younger drivers (who have been on the road less than 3 years) is amazing. I'm sick of it. I'm sick at looking at the smashed cars owned by these drivers too!!

[Auslandau]

Most agree its a mix of both. Unfortunatley you cannot educate an attitude. Skills yes, attitude........ just needs to be delt with! How? I have no idea.



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[benoxr]

I lent towards the driving attitude/behaviour.

I remember this young bike rider, a habitual speedster, clocked doing 160kmh, being interviewed and was asked if had ever thought abouit being injured or killed. His answer was ' I'm a really good rider, I know what I'm doing".
I thought, but you dont know what others on the road are going to do! You cant control what other road users will do!

Last year this young driver, doing approx 120kmh (60km zone) smashed into an old driver pulling out from a side street. He must have thought he had total control of his car, but he couldnt control the other driver.
But who was the bad driver?
The young one for speeding, or the oldie for pulling out without realising how fast the young guy was coming towards him?

[ef_classic]

All drivers should know the safe limit at which they can drive, i do.

[Hunter]

I voted attitude. A lot of people think they are invincible and that they know everything. I am 24 (25 this year) and I have had my open license for just over a year (in QLD you have provisional license for 3 years now, and I didn't get mine till I was almost 20). I am fully aware of the dangers of driving and am I constantly amazed by the absolute stupidity of people on the roads.

I learnt my lesson the hard (and expensive way): I had one minor nose-to-tail about 2 years ago whilst still on P plate. My minor nose-to-tail occurred in a 60 km/h zone and at the time I was travelling at the speed limit, not drunk and not doing anything that you would consider dangerous/risky. The accident was not the result of skylarking but the result of a combination of factors (as are most accidents). Some bogan deadsh1ts (in none other than a VK bogandore) decided they would go from 60 to 0 as fast as possible and turn left into their driveway without indicating causing the three cars behind them to brake very sharply (enough to cause their ABS to kick in). Me being the last person in the line and having less than fantastic brakes ended up in the **** of a VP/VR Commodore which I am pretty sure I wrote off (at the time I worked in the smash repair industry so I could access pricing/quoting info).

So, basically, what caused my accident was a combination of factors: People doing stupid, unpredictable things on the road (a fact I am even more aware of now), a crappy old car (20 year old gemini) and me not paying attention for a very very short period of time (I *may* have been checking out a chick at the time but this isn't proven ;) ). I ended up having to buy myself a new car (which I am still paying off) plus pay the insurance excess for the third party property ($900 - thank god the my car had that!). Oh and that insurance company declined to continue the policy when renewal time came up.

I am glad I had a minor accident - prior to that I knew other people were retarded and couldn't drive but I had no idea that I would eventually come undone because of this. Luckily I was able to learn this without being a) injured or killed, or b) killing or injuring someone else.

Overall lesson learnt: stay away from the dickheads in front of you because ultimately, even if they do something really stupid, you're still responsible if you hit them up the rear .

[BAFalconXT]

With all other things considered, it is unreasonable to expect less experienced drivers to have to same fatality and crash rates as experienced fully functioning older drivers. Does anyone expect a kid not to fall off a bike when they are learning to ride or a girl not to ***** herself with a needle learning to knit. Thats life....

[XR8-260]

It's definately a combination of both. Driving experience is what what P-Platers lack and when combined with speed it can result in an accident. I'm a relatively in-experienced driver myself and finding out for the first time that the falcon can lose traction on damp roads even when flooring it from a roll (50kph) can be pretty scary...

[I FluXx I]

the problem is you dam crazy sydney drivers. With your narrow lanes and everyone tailgating :

But seriously. I thought I was a great driver untill recently. Not long ago I was acting like a ******** and put my foot down around a corner. Little did I know that there was a bit of gravel on the road from a graden and my tyers had almost no tred left. Anyway, car started to slid and I over corrected. The car spun around, went up a curb and almost slid into a tree.

It bloody scared the **** out of me and now Im keeping that for the track. Iv also booked myself in for a defensive driving course.

[Jock260]

its the minority, I'm still on my L's and i know my limits, and i don't push them, i still think the best way to learn to drive is out in the country with miles of open land just mucking around on the dirt with your dad or who ever, that way you can find your limits, and your cars limits, so that you know when you are pushing it. there are some reckless knobs out there not much older than me, that think they are a regular Craig lowndes or mark skaife, but those are the kids that we see on the 6:00 news with their pride and joy wrapped around a tree sadly. i think that there should be skid pan lessons mandatory for people getting their license's, i think that would do wonders for all the "hero's" out there. well thats my 2c.