NSW Road Rules

[normxb]

I GIVE UP

You'll learn ONE day

If you're still alive & Driving

BTW , You're the one who questioned the "reliability" of my information , have a look

[troppo]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

...HUH?

In the first case, local regulations apply. P-plate limit in NSW is 80...no matter where you're from.

In the second case, local regulations first...no problem there. But when the interstate conditions are applied, the condition says 80 is the max for all NSW P-plate licence holders, no matter where you are driving, so it overrides the local law.

Disclaimer: I've assumed 80 and 100 are the respective P-plate limits, the actual figures are irrelevant.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by troppo

In the first case, local regulations apply. P-plate limit in NSW is 80...no matter where you're from.

In the second case, local regulations first...no problem there. But when the interstate conditions are applied, the condition says 80 is the max for all NSW P-plate licence holders, no matter where you are driving, so it overrides the local law.

Disclaimer: I've assumed 80 and 100 are the respective P-plate limits, the actual figures are irrelevant.

So if local regulations apply first, then driving in Victoria on a NSW P's should enable you to do whatever the speed limit is if they were driving in victoria as the rules for Victorian P platers prevail as they are the local rules???

you dont know the rules either

you cant have it both ways

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by normxb

I GIVE UP

You'll learn ONE day

If you're still alive & Driving

BTW , You're the one who questioned the "reliability" of my information , have a look

you are presuming i am a P plater, and you are presuming i think that L and P platers should be able to do whatever they want.

In that you would be wrong.

My contention is that you dont know the rules and are voicing your opinion as if it were the rules

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

it matters because these laws havent been relevant to your driving lifestyle.

I dont care how close you are to your family, but its a secondary source of information and therefore unreliable.

The fact is none of you have relevant experience or knowledge about learner and probabtionary licencing and are pontificating.

The facts are that you do not have to do 80kmph in NSW if you have a victorian Learners permit.

The fact is many can read the relevant information provided on such matters. Rather then just say you can because you want to be able to.

There are Police officers who post on this forum, youll get your answer soon enough.

In the meantime, try this. Its Qld, but the principle is the same.

Originally Posted by Qld Dept of Transport

When can I drive in Queensland on my interstate driver licence?

Linky

You are only allowed to drive in Queensland on your interstate driver licence if you:

* only drive the class of motor vehicle authorised on that licence
* comply with the conditions (if any) of your licence

Now this part says, you must comply with the conditions of your licence as issued in your home state. This is the part you seem focused on, however, there is more you must consider...

and a little further down the page is:

How do I learn about the road rules?

To learn about the Queensland road rules and driving in Queensland in general, you can:

* purchase a copy of the publication Your keys to driving in Queensland, available from Queensland Transport customer service centres or most newsagents

or

* read Your keys to driving in Queensland online.

Why would you need to learn Qld rules if they dont apply?


There is a concept in law, "Choice of jurisdiction". It covers the idea of which laws apply when the issue crosses jurisdictions, ie: NSW and Vic.

The general rule is they apply the laws of most relevant jurisdiction. So the licence itself is valid, as its issued by a lawful authority, that is upheld. However, the most relevant jurisdiction when driving is the state in which you are traveling, so there road rules and limitations are applied for classes of licence that are comparable. A learners is such a licence.

Look at it logically, what you expect is every driver in NSW will notice the Victorian number plate and will be aware of the road rules for every state, and will make allowances for you as per your Victorian ideas. However, the most realistic answer is, as you are driving in another state, you will make yourself aware of that states rules and comply with them.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

The fact is many can read the relevant information provided on such matters. Rather then just say you can because you want to be able to.

There are Police officers who post on this forum, youll get your answer soon enough.

In the meantime, try this. Its Qld, but the principle is the same.


Why would you need to learn Qld rules if they dont apply?


There is a concept in law, "Choice of jurisdiction". It covers the idea of which laws apply when the issue crosses jurisdictions, ie: NSW and Vic.

The general rule is they apply the laws of most relevant jurisdiction. So the licence itself is valid, as its issued by a lawful authority, that is upheld. However, the most relevant jurisdiction when driving is the state in which you are traveling, so there road rules and limitations are applied for classes of licence that are comparable. A learners is such a licence.

Look at it logically, what you expect is every driver in NSW will notice the Victorian number plate and will be aware of the road rules for every state, and will make allowances for you as per your Victorian ideas. However, the most realistic answer is, as you are driving in another state, you will make yourself aware of that states rules and comply with them.

I completely agree with your statements, they are well written and researched.

However, as a learner driver at 16* years of age, the only road rules they are likely to know are the ones you recently learnt in your Learners permit test, and these do not cover such a situation as driving interstate (at least in vic). And at 16 I doubt many learners would be aware or thinking of juristicional relevance and thinking more about staying on the road.

That said, the speed limit is the maximum and i know that i wasnt allowed to drive at it until i was capable of safe driving.

a helpful link may be this, http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregul...e/driving.html

the victorian one is much the same and does not mention it. I would hope if it were the case that it would be flagged in many spots in big bold capital letters. And as it is not, i think i stand justified.

it does not mention either way about learners. I think you would be pretty hard done by to be fined for complying with the conditions of your valid interstate licence. And the point about the Interstate registered car is valid too. Dont draw negitive attention to yourself and be reasonable and respectful to the police officer if you are pulled over and most things will work out ok

That and the QLD thing backs up my argument too, so thanks for that, i needed it.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

So if local regulations apply first, then driving in Victoria on a NSW P's should enable you to do whatever the speed limit is if they were driving in victoria as the rules for Victorian P platers prevail as they are the local rules???

you dont know the rules either

you cant have it both ways

Yes you can have it both ways.

Note:
All restrictions of your licence apply.

Which ever restiction is tightest, apply that.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Yes you can have it both ways.

Note:
All restrictions of your licence apply.

Which ever restiction is tightest, apply that.

The law, which you quoted says,

All restrictions of your licence apply.

NOT All restrictions of the state you are in apply.

NOT whatever state has tougher laws apply. (who determines which is tougher?)

NOT as a learner you are required to know the conditions of all states learners permits in Australia and apply what a guy on fordforums.com.au thinks. (that refers to me or you)

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

I completely agree with your statements, they are well written and researched.

However, as a learner driver at 16* years of age, the only road rules they are likely to know are the ones you recently learnt in your Learners permit test, and these do not cover such a situation as driving interstate (at least in vic). And at 16 I doubt many learners would be aware or thinking of juristicional relevance and thinking more about staying on the road.

That said, the speed limit is the maximum and i know that i wasnt allowed to drive at it until i was capable of safe driving.

a helpful link may be this, http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregul...e/driving.html

the victorian one is much the same and does not mention it. I would hope if it were the case that it would be flagged in many spots in big bold capital letters. And as it is not, i think i stand justified.

it does not mention either way about learners. I think you would be pretty hard done by to be fined for complying with the conditions of your valid interstate licence. And the point about the Interstate registered car is valid too. Dont draw negitive attention to yourself and be reasonable and respectful to the police officer if you are pulled over and most things will work out ok

That and the QLD thing backs up my argument too, so thanks for that, i needed it.

One: A learner driver is not alone in the vehicle. Beside them is a fully licenced driver who should be aware of the limits placed on the learner in his 'charge'.

Just because a specific situation is not disclosed in the learners handbook does not mean it does not exist. I agree it makes sense that such things should be, maybe you should write to the relevant minsters and let them know that a confusing issue is not clearly outlined in the manual.

Show me exactly how the link I provided proves your argument? It doesnt specifically mention it? I hope youre not still relying on that.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by EL XR6

I always thought you stick to the laws from your own state?

So that means that people from ACT can legally have some whacky tobacco in NSW and just say "its legal in Canberra" - ha ha NO

You have to abide by the laws of the state you are in. I wouldnt suggest breaking your licence conditions no matter which state you are in anyway.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

One: A learner driver is not alone in the vehicle. Beside them is a fully licenced driver who should be aware of the limits placed on the learner in his 'charge'.

Just because a specific situation is not disclosed in the learners handbook does not mean it does not exist. I agree it makes sense that such things should be, maybe you should write to the relevant minsters and let them know that a confusing issue is not clearly outlined in the manual.

Show me exactly how the link I provided proves your argument? It doesnt specifically mention i? I hope your not still relying on that.

Firstly, I was agreeing with you for the most part, not insulting you. and i think we are both trying to discuss this issue even though we have a difference of opinion, to further our knowledge and help someone else. Im not trying to be confrontational nor put you down as a person, so i hope you are doing the same.

The licenced driver is not required to know the Learners restrictions of each state of Australia either nor make judgement calls on which ones to follow. The licenced driver is required to be licenced as per the requirements of the learner's learners permit, awake and sober.

I agree that it is an issue that is not properly defined and yes further clarification is needed.

I didnt mean proves, i do mean supports.

* only drive the class of motor vehicle authorised on that licence
* comply with the conditions (if any) of your licence

Complying by the conditions of "your licence" means that if you have a victorian licence which allows you to do the posted speed limit, then you should not be penalised for doing so.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

it matters because these laws havent been relevant to your driving lifestyle/experience in many years, and if you are talking about your kids or someone elses kids that further illustrates my point.

See you even recognise the limitations of experience in knowing the different rules etc, yet seem to think the whole state of NSW should be aware of your likely actions when driving near you. You do realise why an 'L' plate must be displayed right?

As you said, NSW drivers arent aware of the limitations on Victorian drivers or lack of, they expect your L plate indicates you wont be exceeding 90km/h as to their knowledge. an "L' plater must not exceed 90. But you could easily comply with NSW law, and youre just one person v the entire state of NSW.

If you want to argue you wont be aware of NSW laws, then you shouldnt be driving there full stop. But there is no reason NSW drivers, driving in NSW should be aware of Victorian rules, unless they want to drive there.

It makes sense the visitor will comply to local laws.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

is he the same guy from FPV with the V10 GTHO???

Whats his phone number. Somone?? Anyone??

I want a V10 GTHO!!

[MotherNatureVer2]

I have just got off the phone to RTA in NSW, since that is the regulatory authority relating to the original posters question.

A learner driver can drive up to the sign posted speeds so long as they do not exceed 80kph.

A P Plater is a different story, they are allowed to travel to their states speed limit. So the local police officer here has kept my son to a lower speed limit than he is allowed.

As explained to me the learner is only on a permit & the P Plater actually holds a licence.

The woman who assisted me ..... bugga she may have been over 35 ....... read the rules to me as was in front of her.

[Casablanca]

look brodfloyd you are diggind yourself deeper and deeper the above links did not prove you correct they actually proved you to be incorrect my advice READ THE DAMN LINKS.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

I was agreeing with you.

The licenced driver is not required to know the Learners restrictions of each state of Australia either.

I agree that it is an issue that is not properly defined and yes further clarification is needed.

I didnt mean proves, i do mean supports.

* only drive the class of motor vehicle authorised on that licence
* comply with the conditions (if any) of your licence

Complying by the conditions of "your licence" means that if you have a victorian licence which allows you to do the posted speed limit, then you should not be penalised for doing so.

Youll notice if you go back to the post you quoted, I actually said you seem to be focused on one portion of the information. The one portion you just singled out now, I hope the point of that isnt lost on you. However, there was a second section I quoted, whereby it informs you of a need to know the local rules.

You keep saying the 'L' plater wont be aware of the local laws, yet that link says you must be. Further, there is a fully licenced driver accompanying an L plater, that supervisor, should be aware and instruct the learner to remain at no more than 90. The learners experience is less relevant in this situation as he is not alone.


Edit: Took out the P plate bit, as I was incorrect on that part.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

See you even recognise the limitations of experience in knowing the different rules etc, yet seem to think the whole state of NSW should be aware of your likely actions when driving near you. You do realise why an 'L' plate must be displayed right?

As you said, NSW drivers arent aware of the limitations on Victorian drivers or lack of, they expect your L plate indicates you wont be exceeding 90km/h as to their knowledge. an "L' plater must not exceed 90. But you could easily comply with NSW law, and youre just one person v the entire state of NSW.

If you want to argue you wont be aware of NSW laws, then you shouldnt be driving there full stop. But there is no reason NSW drivers, driving in NSW should be aware of Victorian rules, unless they want to drive there.

It makes sense the visitor will comply to local laws.

Oh no no no no no my friend, this is where the picking out of points attributing opinions not of my own and placing words in my mouth then flaming stops. Please.

I did not say nor mean what you have just attributed to me.

My point is that if you have a victorian learners, one should fully follow its conditions to the letter and be as safe as possible on the road. That includes the Australian Road rules (which all states comply with) and the display of L plates.

By following ones own state's L plate regulations it does not imply that one is ignoring all other interstate laws and breaking them.

The danger comes when we decide to pick and choose parts of either states L plate regulations to follow.

If the victorian learner is fully complying with the conditions of his or her licence, they are no greater risk on the road.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Youll notice if you go back to the post you quoted, I actually said you seem to be focused on one portion of the information. The one portion you just singled out now, I hope the point of that isnt lost on you. However, there was a second section I quoted, whereby it informs you of a need to know the local rules.

You keep saying the 'L' plater wont be aware of the local laws, yet that link says you must be. Further, there is a fully licenced driver accompanying an L plater, that supervisor, should be aware and instruct the learner to remain at no more than 90. The learners experience is less relevant in this situation as he is not alone. When he reaches P plate stage, he is no longer so inexperienced the ignorance factor is any excuse whatsoever. You are responsible to make yourself aware of the rules of the place in which you are driving.

The local rules are not the local licencing regulations, there is a difference. One must make sure to not throw their net too wide in relation to what this applies to. They are refering specifically to things such as Melbourne's Hook turns etc which are road rules specific to one area, similar to when some states had gone to 50km in residential zones without signs.

An L plater is expected to know the Australian Road Rules and the Licence Regulations for their states, as well as the Local rules for things like Merging, round abouts, line marking and hook turns, NOT licencing regulations.

My point is still, if one is fully complying with these requirements they are not dangerous and will not draw undue attention from the police.

If the poster was to get pulled over and fined, i would think he has been hard done by. And i think that it would be very very unlikely.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

Oh no no no no no my friend, this is where the picking out of points attributing opinions not of my own and placing words in my mouth then flaming stops. Please.

I did not say nor mean what you have just attributed to me.

My point is that if you have a victorian learners, one should fully follow its conditions to the letter and be as safe as possible on the road. That includes the Australian Road rules (which all states comply with) and the display of L plates.

By following ones own state's L plate regulations it does not imply that one is ignoring all other interstate laws and breaking them.

The danger comes when we decide to pick and choose parts of either states L plate regulations to follow.

If the victorian learner is fully complying with the conditions of his or her licence, they are no greater risk on the road.

No you missed what I was saying. L plates indicate to drivers, the inexperience of the car in front. It indicates to them, the driver will not be exceeding 90km/h, or shouldnt be. It is they, the whole state, who is unaware of the likely actions of the L plate in front, more so than simply due to inexperience. Youre asking the state of NSW to be aware of the rules that apply to L platers in every possible state, while you excuse the odd L plater doing so from being aware of the rules in the jurisdiction they are driving in.

Look at it this way. The L plater (or at least his supervising licenced driver) need only be aware of the licence state rules, and that of NSW as they intend to drive there. In your scenario, potentially NSW drivers must make themselves aware of the different rules for every state in Australia to be aware of the likely actions of an L plater.


Oh, and did you read MotherNatures post? It directly answers the question.

[MotherNatureVer2]

Obviously I am only an aged woman who knows nothing as he seems to have disregarded my post totally .......

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

No you missed what I was saying. L plates indicate to drivers, the inexperience of the car in front. It indicates to them, the driver will not be exceeding 90km/h, or shouldnt be. It is they, the whole state, who is unaware of the likely actions of the L plate in front, more so than simply due to inexperience. Youre asking the state of NSW to be aware of the rules that apply to L platers in every possible state, while you excuse the odd L plater doing so from being aware of the rules in the jurisdiction they are driving in.

Look at it this way. The L plater (or at least his supervising licenced driver) need only be aware of the licence state rules, and that of NSW as they intend to drive there. In your scenario, potentially NSW drivers must make themselves aware of the different rules for every state in Australia to be aware of the likely actions of an L plater.


Oh, and did you read MotherNatures post?

Yes I have, turns out I'm wrong. i can admit that.

All of the research I had done up until this had lead me to a different conclusion to yourself. I still stand by my statements however in relation to the other points i have made. This highlights the need for a single national licencing system as this is some what of a grey area open to different interpretations as we have seen here.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by MotherNature

Obviously I am only an aged woman who knows nothing as he seems to have disregarded most post totally .......

Thanks for clearing that up. Nice xr you have there.

No you are not a middle aged woman who knows nothing, and that was not the contention of my original post. Obviously age does not bring maturity or graciousness in victory.

May i query if you were speaking about interstate drivers or just your son who has a NSW permit?

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

Thanks for clearing that up. Nice xr you have there.

No you are not a middle aged woman who knows nothing, and that was not the contention of my original post. Obviously age does not bring maturity or graciousness.

You might want to hope it does.

Your post did simply say, over 35, and if under 35 are wowsers. While your thought may have been over 35 therefore unaware of the L plate rules as it doesnt really concern them, youd be wrong, at 35, its likely your heading towards being the supervising licence holder of your own kids.

The ignorance seems to occur between the age of 12 and 35.

Its a joke, relax. Maybe.

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

Yes I have, turns out I'm wrong. i can admit that.

All of the research I had done up until this had lead me to a different conclusion to yourself. I still stand by my statements however in relation to the other points i have made. This highlights the need for a single national licencing system as this is some what of a grey area open to different interpretations as we have seen here.

Your research from what I read was based on a lack of information stating the rule exists, leading you to believe it must not exist. Absence of information only indicates an absense of information, not the existence or lack of, a rule.

Its a subtle difference, but a difference so stark it can cost you.

[MotherNatureVer2]

I am glad this is now sorted.

I am a gracious person when the need arises. Thank you for your comments about my Sprint.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by troppo

In the first case, local regulations apply. P-plate limit in NSW is 80...no matter where you're from.

In the second case, local regulations first...no problem there. But when the interstate conditions are applied, the condition says 80 is the max for all NSW P-plate licence holders, no matter where you are driving, so it overrides the local law.

Disclaimer: I've assumed 80 and 100 are the respective P-plate limits, the actual figures are irrelevant.

he was wrong too. shows there are many interpretations of the laws regarding learners and probabtionary drivers.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

Obviously age does not bring maturity or graciousness.

No, we are born with it and let it slide as alzheimer's kicks in.

Same with experience, we are born with it, but forget as we age. :

The other point i wanted to mention was......ahh.......? i forgot what i was talking about.

[MotherNatureVer2]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

May i query if you were speaking about interstate drivers or just your son who has a NSW permit?

I was only referring to the original posters query in this matter, that being a Vic 'L' plate holder driving in NSW.

On a side I asked them about my son being on red P Plates. It was an enlightening phone call I must say. It is in fact my daughter who is on her 'L' plates. The joys of having kids close in age.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

No, we are born with it and let it slide as alzheimer's kicks in.

Same with experience, we are born with it, but forget as we age. :

The other point i wanted to mention was......ahh.......? i forgot what i was talking about.

You left it with your keys.

Can you still whistle Grandpa?

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by fmc351

You might want to hope it does.

Your post did simply say, over 35, and if under 35 are wowsers. While your thought may have been over 35 therefore unaware of the L plate rules as it doesnt really concern them, youd be wrong, at 35, its likely your heading towards being the supervising licence holder of your own kids.

The ignorance seems to occur between the age of 12 and 35.

Its a joke, relax. Maybe.

OHHH what!?!?!?

why you........

nah not really, it is all good. i get your point, probably wasnt the best words to use on my behalf as they were inflamitory. but what i meant is what you said, and I still mean it, the older you are the less likely in general you are to be familiar with all current learner regs.

at least we all know the situation now, and if someone comes onto the forum and searches or asks, they can be told with certainty. and i think that is the best outcome. Because at the start there were a number of posts which were wrong opinions stated as fact.

you are right about ignorance between 12 and 35, look at the federal election.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

No, we are born with it and let it slide as alzheimer's kicks in.

Same with experience, we are born with it, but forget as we age. :

The other point i wanted to mention was......ahh.......? i forgot what i was talking about.

did i say that, no.

Cyber bullying is a major issue, and the provocation of singling out a user should be taken seriously.

i dont find that helpful, especially from a moderator.

i was trying to contribute and made a mistake by using inflamitory language that upset some of our middle aged and elderly contributors. I whole heartedly apologise and retract those comments.

my contention, though misguided was that those over a certain age were no longer familiar with L plater regulations and others were unknowledgeable about the subject and shooting from the hip.

Please lead by example in future.