Oil Pump Gears / Un-Opened ??

[ratter]

I will probably replace mine down the track, but will call mine opened if I do.


Once a motors been opened, it's been opened, who's to say what has been done behind closed covers.

[X ORSMXR]

mate at the end of the day who really cares.

As Chris will know and l have also changed my oil pump numerous times and have not found a significant difference once put back together.

So l think we ourselves will have to be honest when racing our cars unlike the Red team as l have found out that a few guys (The red team)have been saying they are unopened which in actual fact they have been fully opened.

So l think you can still call it unopened.

[X ORSMXR]

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

All i'm worried about is the fact that if the gears aren't allowed then the average punter out there won't get the opportunity to have a go at the records that have been set due to fear of having to sell their house to buy new engine.


Glenn

Come on Glenn if we all have put out the challange without the gears l dont see how it makes it that hard to come catch us.

[G&D PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

mate at the end of the day who really cares.

As Chris will know and l have also changed my oil pump numerous times and have not found a significant difference once put back together.

So l think we ourselves will have to be honest when racing our cars unlike the Red team as l have found out that a few guys (The red team)have been saying they are unopened which in actual fact they have been fully opened.

So l think you can still call it unopened.

The red team? Is this the team that was supposed to have a stock internal LS1 illegally running heads & cam? : : Man you guys are unreal.

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by ratter

I will probably replace mine down the track, but will call mine opened if I do.


Once a motors been opened, it's been opened, who's to say what has been done behind closed covers.

As i said before, some people have replaced timing tensioners under warranty, do you class that as opened ?

Technically it is !

Maybe there needs to be an independant scruiteneer involved when records are broken, im sure that most people wouldn't mind their vehicles being inspected if reputations and integrity are on the line !

I for sure wouldnt mind my motor checked if i was in a position to break or challenge a record, just to make sure everything is above board.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

Come on Glenn if we all have put out the challange without the gears l dont see how it makes it that hard to come catch us.

And how many oil pumps gears have you replaced?

Hrrm, not everyone can afford that sort of down time especially when you Boss powers a work car, It's insurance, get your hand off it mate!

[X ORSMXR]

And how many oil pumps gears have you replaced?
Hrrm, not everyone can afford that sort of down time especially when you Boss powers a work car, It's insurance, get your hand off it mate!

mate have done 2 pumps and mate l use my car to get to work , no car no work so you can get your hand off it. when you have the power come see me when you break 6 cv joints mate. You race you pay.

[ratter]

A dealer ship replacing tensioners is a bit different to a performance workshop playing around inside a motor and being able to cover over any possible mods.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

I understand what your saying Chris but I do remember you once mentioned to me during the period when you were running your unopened 260 BOSS about how you had modified the oil pump gears to make them live.Is this also classed as unopened?

Glenn

Glenn, I think your first post in this thread was very well said.

My 260 had never had oil pump gears fitted, even after i opened the engine. In actual fact, im fitting them tonight. I broke them at calder when we ran the 11.90, I kept blowing the tyres off, so i did a 1,2,3 7000rpm burnout and smashed the gears. Then it (260) came out and 290 with 4psi Capa blower went on.

So at that stage in time, my 260 was completely unopened.

There are several other issues here - to remove the oil pump, the timing chains need to be removed. This would be like taking the chain off an ls1 and replacing it - it CAN alter valvetrain events.

If people inspect my 260 (its on the engine stand now) I could pass it off as unopened. Its only because ive been up front about the mods, ive been the first to call it opened. heads havent been lifted, cams are standard however their location is not where ford put them.

You check clearancing on BOSS gears (the little cam gears) and you will see that the lobe centre can be changed by as much as 3 degrees per side without grinding. This can yield rwkws, and cannot be detected. As ford make these engines with lazy tolerances we are able to "blueprint" this area and dial them up to suit.

Hope this helps.

[Chris]

On another note - no one here has said people cannot replace the gears - by all means, replace them.

But, the motor is then opened. If we dont want the "smoke and mirrors" mentality in the Ford corner, we must be black and white about this guys, sorry.

BUT - if the vote goes ahead that oil pump gears are ok for unopened, then im claiming the 11.90 @ 116.

Your choice guys, either way i'll be out there racing :eclipsee_

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

mate have done 2 pumps and mate l use my car to get to work.

Mate if my old man decides to race his ute he will but he isn't going to take the risk without the gears.

You were the one making the big statement that i quoted in my 1st post.

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

come see me when you break 6 cv joints mate.

It's got the power mate don't worry about that, but since when does breaking CV's make you a hero?

[G&D PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

mate have done 2 pumps and mate l use my car to get to work , no car no work so you can get your hand off it. when you have the power come see me when you break 6 cv joints mate. You race you pay.

Did you find out who the red team was mate?

We are taking our fastest bolt on LS1 out to Calder on friday night for a run,this is the black one though not the red one,bring the scrutineers,the cars all yours.Our $5000 dollar reward still stands for anyone that proves the engine to be anything other than factory stock(except for the allowed valvesprings).Hey we'll even take it out for them.

[X ORSMXR]

Really you can still call it un opened if a dealership changes them as they would probably make the car go slower as they read out of a book.lol

[russellw]

Call me an idiot but regardless of whether the modification is performance enhancing or not unopened means not opened. There isn't any other definition that makes sense and allows no room for questioning. In any formal motorsport environment all components that make up the entire package are open to scrutiny and this ensures a level playing field. In the less regulated environment we deal in here we can only take the word of the individual as to whether there car is unopened or not. Given the scope available within the Boss engine for other "fine tuning" while they are open I can't see any other definition being viable.

Mine has always run in an unopened condition and returned middling sorts of times against some of the ones we are starting to see now. That's how it goes and I accept the trade off. The next one will almost certainly be opened at some stage early in the life cycle but it will be acknowledged as such regardless of whether the modificatiosn are for durability or performance as both, in the final analysis, have an impact on the ability of the vehicle to continuously perform above factory expectations.

Cheers
Russ

[347_XR8]

I'd have to class it as un-opened. If theres no performance gains and is only due to reliabilty, then whats the big deal?

[Quadcams]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

As i said before, some people have replaced timing tensioners under warranty, do you class that as opened ?

Technically it is !

Maybe there needs to be an independant scruiteneer involved when records are broken, im sure that most people wouldn't mind their vehicles being inspected if reputations and integrity are on the line !

I for sure wouldnt mind my motor checked if i was in a position to break or challenge a record, just to make sure everything is above board.

That sounds like a valid call Cam, I wouldnt have a problem with someone checking my motor if that was the case.
There so many that have changed there tensioners/gears already (with no gain), before long there would hardly be anyone thats is realy totally unopened.
I tell you now there's no way I or just about anyone for that fact thats wants to (possibly) destroy there motor just for a record maybe give it hell but not destroy it so even though I have been against the valve spring change on ls1's I would have to say it should be ok.

[G&D PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by Chris

Glenn, I think your first post in this thread was very well said.

My 260 had never had oil pump gears fitted, even after i opened the engine. In actual fact, im fitting them tonight. I broke them at calder when we ran the 11.90, I kept blowing the tyres off, so i did a 1,2,3 7000rpm burnout and smashed the gears. Then it (260) came out and 290 with 4psi Capa blower went on.

So at that stage in time, my 260 was completely unopened.

There are several other issues here - to remove the oil pump, the timing chains need to be removed. This would be like taking the chain off an ls1 and replacing it - it CAN alter valvetrain events.

If people inspect my 260 (its on the engine stand now) I could pass it off as unopened. Its only because ive been up front about the mods, ive been the first to call it opened. heads havent been lifted, cams are standard however their location is not where ford put them.

You check clearancing on BOSS gears (the little cam gears) and you will see that the lobe centre can be changed by as much as 3 degrees per side without grinding. This can yield rwkws, and cannot be detected. As ford make these engines with lazy tolerances we are able to "blueprint" this area and dial them up to suit.

Hope this helps.

Ok fair enough,If my memory serves me correct though you said back then that there were some paint marks on the standard gears that you cleaned off & that you ran extra clearance on the stock gears to make them live up to 7000rpm.I don't want to push this though as I do respect your efforts to date,I just want to make sure that we are all on a level playing feild & nothing else.

I've seen the 3 degree's that you are talking about,it's quite amazing,I'm sure you'd agree.I'd also think that the guys on the Ford assembly line are going to zap those camshaft bolts up in just about any position leaving a variation in cam timing that will vary on many BOSS engines anyway,my Ford contacts also tell me that even the odd engine has been found to have incorrect cam phasing(maybe only one cam?) which have been fixed under warranty.

It gets really complex.

Glenn

[X ORSMXR]

Ok fair enough,If my memory serves me correct though you said back then that there were some paint marks on the standard gears that you cleaned off & that you ran extra clearance on the stock gears to make them live up to 7000rpm.I don't want to push this though as I do respect your efforts to date,I just want to make sure that we are all on a level playing feild & nothing else.

Mate the paint chris was talking about was off the camshafts not the pump gears as they dont have paint on them.

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

Mate the paint chris was talking about was off the camshafts not the pump gears as they dont have paint on them.

Hi Chris,
I think Glenn meant the paint came off the camshafts, and ended up going through the oil pump, i believe there are a few reported instances of this happening.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

Ok fair enough,If my memory serves me correct though you said back then that there were some paint marks on the standard gears that you cleaned off & that you ran extra clearance on the stock gears to make them live up to 7000rpm.I don't want to push this though as I do respect your efforts to date,I just want to make sure that we are all on a level playing feild & nothing else.

I've seen the 3 degree's that you are talking about,it's quite amazing,I'm sure you'd agree.I'd also think that the guys on the Ford assembly line are going to zap those camshaft bolts up in just about any position leaving a variation in cam timing that will vary on many BOSS engines anyway,my Ford contacts also tell me that even the odd engine has been found to have incorrect cam phasing(maybe only one cam?) which have been fixed under warranty.

It gets really complex.

Glenn

Glenn, that is the difference between these engines, and if we are going to dial cams in, and put pump gears in etc etc we may as well drop the "unopened" thing - or we could call my 260 unopened.

We make more changes to the pump housing itself, different relief system and have done this on every opened engine we do.

I called my engine "opened" when we played with cam timing because the intention was to build cylinder pressure. we did it, it made power, it ran numbers. Mick (ratter's) car has not even had the plenum lifted.

Im also aware of manufacturing inequities with rockers - where do you draw the line??

see, calling them uncracked when they have been cracked will always open up a can of worms. NO matter what they are cracked for.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Hi Chris,
I think Glenn meant the paint came off the camshafts, and ended up going through the oil pump, i believe there are a few reported instances of this happening.

correct dude........

[X ORSMXR]

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

Did you find out who the red team was mate?

We are taking our fastest bolt on LS1 out to Calder on friday night for a run,this is the black one though not the red one,bring the scrutineers,the cars all yours.Our $5000 dollar reward still stands for anyone that proves the engine to be anything other than factory stock(except for the allowed valvesprings).Hey we'll even take it out for them.

Why do you have your back up against the wall mate, who said it was your car (do you feel guilty).
All l know is that back in the early days of the red teams record breaking runs a certain tuning shop tuned this car and claimed unopened when in fact was opened.

So if it's not you guys you have nothing to worry about....

[X ORSMXR]

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ORSMXR
come see me when you break 6 cv joints mate.

posted by FPV8U
It's got the power mate don't worry about that, but since when does breaking CV's make you a hero?
__________________

Mate doesn't make me a hero mate. Just cost me alot of $$$$$$$$

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

Mate doesn't make me a hero mate. Just cost me alot of $$$$$$$$.

Thanks for your little PM ORSMXR, it's my dads decition not to race the car at the moment not mine, as far for you little " Your car was tuned at G&D so it has no real power" Claim i would love to see some REAL evidence of this!

I have no problem with Bluepower Performance/Chris, but you are not a good representation of him so maybe you should keep quiet and let him do the talking.

don't try and talk nicely in an open forum and get up me in a PM!

[X ORSMXR]

Well mate like l said in the pm G&D are new using the edit so thats were the real power came from, but l am sure they will get the hang of it at some stage.And as of evidence it's at the track.Mate l myself don't have a problem with G&D as l have been down there a few times myself.

And as talking nice in a forum l really can't speak my mind as l may get myself banned.

Now back to topic.

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

Well mate like l said in the pm G&D are new using the edit so thats were the real power came from, but l am sure they will get the hang of it at some stage.And as of evidence it's at the track.Mate l myself don't have a problem with G&D as l have been down there a few times myself.

And as talking nice in a forum l really can't speak my mind as l may get myself banned.

Now back to topic.

Now would be a good time to remind people to keep this a focussed discussion and for it not to be going any further.
People are entitled to their opinions but sometimes it's better to keep them to yourself or be very careful how they are expressed.

[rodderz]

It's the disappointing banter that goes to and fro which causes rifts, it does no good for anyone. We all have a common want- to see Fords go faster, especially in the V8 department

[Chris]

i think when chris says "red" team, he is referring to red meaning the General, which is not a ford, and thats all that matters.

Orsmxr and FPV8U i would best advise you both keep the tough talk to PM as I dont want to see either of you guys banned, and you are heading down this road.

So anyway, im putting my opened 260 back in my ute for some NA action at the LS1's and i dont think i will ever again campaign an UNOPENED deal, because i cannot afford a new pursuit which would be my weapon of choice.

AS far as Drag racing is concerned, i am only glad to see cam starting threads here - as we need more focussed ford guys at the strip, without the talk. Numbers talk guys, like Mark said, lets just race.

and best you all check out my signature, regardless of what times i have run, its my feelings about the cars and this forum.

[CAMS290]

Please guys stay on topic.
This is a very important issue that needs to be adressed, the poll results are very interesting thus far.

The AFF's are by far the greatest way to get a credible answer to this subject, everyones input has been appreciated, but there is a glaring difference on opinions when it all boils down.

I think that since it cant be policed 100 %, we will have to go on peoples word that their cars have billet oil pump gears and no other internal mods to cam timing etc.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Please guys stay on topic.
This is a very important issue that needs to be adressed, the poll results are very interesting thus far.

The AFF's are by far the greatest way to get a credible answer to this subject, everyones input has been appreciated, but there is a glaring difference on opinions when it all boils down.

I think that since it cant be policed 100 %, we will have to go on peoples word that their cars have billet oil pump gears and no other internal mods to cam timing etc.

i dont think its important Cam, if it is, and people agree that it is OK to remove chains to do the pump, then the new record my friend is an 11.90, as im sure when people put the chains back on they wont be putting 4 dial indicators on the valvetrain to make sure it was put back where ford had it.