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#31 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
This has been understood for as long as I can remember. I'm not quite sure why Ronwest is questioning this. I will also go on to say that there will be differences when the car is moving to. The biggest differences IMO. Think of it this way, the shield is restricting air flow through the wheel. Much of the cool air the brakes rely on will come from airflow through the wheel. If this is reduced when using shields, then naturally brake cooling is reduced. This is really basic stuff. Also, as I've repeatedly pointed out, it may not effect 95% of users, however it will effect some. That's a fact. What happens when you reduce the airflow through the radiator? Then engine may overheat under some more extreme conditions.
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. Oval Everywhere... Last edited by Sox; 11-01-2012 at 03:52 PM. |
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#32 | ||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,324
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Im not going to discredit what you are saying Rick. You make valid points. I agree, air needs to go somewhere when moving, if there is a shield in the way, then it makes it harder for heat to dissipate faster. But what would be the % of that as a guess? 5%-10% maximum worse case scenario?
Again, it does come down a lot to the purpose of the vehicle. A race car wouldn't have these fitted. A stock 'grandma' style vehicle would to make it easier for the owner to clean the car. Would the grandma car be affected less in braking performance with these fitted? I highly doubt it, but could be due to her/his ability to drive the car within the conditions they are comfortable with. While your points are very valid, and I find they have a lot of merit, I still think the affect would be minimal for 97% of drivers base on capability, driving style and other factors as you say, and only a very small percentage would be affected if at all any.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#33 | |||
All Bran = Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: BrizVegas
Posts: 1,970
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Quote:
It's obvious that they do. My question is about the degree of influence that has on brake fade. Certainly some influence but I'd contend that if you're braking to the point of brake fade, dust shields are the least of your problems. |
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#34 | |||
Stroking it...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The 'butt
Posts: 2,844
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Quote:
+ If you want cleaner rims keep the dust covers on, if you want to be sure the brakes are getting maximum cooling, then take them off! I've got Competition Pads on my AP's with no dust covers, they make lots of dust, don't brake well when cold, and can be noisy.. Does a run through the mountains make up for this? Yes! Horses for Courses...
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Had: 347ci AU Then: ![]() Now: Busted assed EB Wagon - 5sp and Dual Fuel. |
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#35 | ||||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
Some are quite small, and some fully enclose the rear of the rim, 100% sealed. I would think 100% sealed would reduce direct air flow to the brake system by as much as 35% or more. Sure, the smaller ones may only reduce air flow by 5%-10% like you say. Even so, a car which is already border line, will be pushed over the edge even by small amounts. Maybe literally. ![]() Quote:
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. Oval Everywhere... Last edited by Sox; 11-01-2012 at 04:21 PM. |
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#36 | |||
All Bran = Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: BrizVegas
Posts: 1,970
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#37 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
On a recent trip around Victoria towing a caravan, myself, and my folks following with their rig, experienced brake fade. My car is a AU XR8 220 with Tickford brakes, of which I replaced the pads with Bendix HD's before leaving. My folks have a Territory with standard brakes, also replacing the pads with Bendix HD before leaving. We were each towing a ~1200kg caravan. For 90% of the trip, the brakes worked just fine and dandy, however, there were 2 occasions where we both experienced brake fade. Once was approaching Woolongong, the other time was going through the snowys. Neither of us were in any danger, however both needed considerably higher pedal pressure as we approached the bottom of each respective mountain. My folks mentioned their brakes smelling somewhat. Neither of us have dust shields. How do you think shields would have effected the above scenarios? My point being, sometimes, some people, in some situations will experience brake fade and there is no problem. It's just the nature of the beast. Dust shields in these cases will not not help.
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. Oval Everywhere... Last edited by Sox; 11-01-2012 at 04:22 PM. |
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#38 | ||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,324
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I haven't seen the full size covers before, just the smaller ones hiding the disc and caliper. A full sized one will be like fitting a moon disc to the rim.
![]() I think there are a lot of factors to consider with this subject and while most will get away with having covers, some minorities won't due to a number of possible reasons. If it were me, I would get rid of them as I want the best braking performance possible and if it makes only 5% difference in braking ability, thats good enough for me. However my dad is a slow driver and he prefers to have covers on his car, and it matters not. But if I were to drive his car the way I drive mine, I am sure there will be a difference of some description.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#39 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
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. Oval Everywhere... |
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#40 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
However as you can see from my last post, even my folks had brake fade under a certain condition.
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. Oval Everywhere... |
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#41 | ||||
All Bran = Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: BrizVegas
Posts: 1,970
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Quote:
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I have a brother who lives in Glen Innes. We go down there 5 or 6 times per year. Since the landslides at Cunninghams Gap (12 months ago during floods) the chances of not getting caught behind a truck doing 10 -15kph downhill for a few kilometres is very slim. Following a truck + 20 or 30 cars down the gap, I've had brake fade on my AU without shields and I've had no brake fade on my FG with shields. We're only debating degree which as we both know can change with circumstances. I absolutely accept that shields will have some influence on brake fade. IMO it won't be much. Anyhoo, I've had my say. Happy to read replies but I don't think there's much more I can contribute. |
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#42 | ||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,324
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I think we are all seeing different sides of the spectrum here and I do not believe there is a right or wrong answer to this subject.
It's down to each individual, their driving habits, vehicle type, road/traffic conditions, circumstances of the trip, brake condition and setup, etc. Sure the will be some heat blockage with shields on, but to what extent will it affect braking? refer to above. Will it make a difference in braking ability having shields on? refer to above Will a shield stop brake dust? Mostly, but it all depends on the above too. Will not having shields fitted benefit my car? again, refer above. I cannot contribute further to this discussion either. But I can say it is interesting seeing it from others view points and getting their outlook on it.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#43 | ||||||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
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I've heard numerous reports over the last 20 odd years of such things, from people within the industry (Yes, I have worked in the auto industry). Quote:
FG's have much more powerful brakes than AU1, and reasonably more powerful than AU2/3. Need to take into account pad differences too (if there is any). Lots of variables, least of all different cars. Quote:
![]() It's all good.
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. Oval Everywhere... |
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#44 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 81
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No one has mentioned that these dust shields are fuggin ugly...
![]() Before I owned a Falcon I must admit I didn't know that they were. All the cars I've owned before (Alfas, Hondas, Volvos, etc) never had them! On the first AUII Fairmont it was the first thing my mechanic took off, and on the second (AUIII Fairmont V8) they weren't there, thank goodness! I always thought that AUI Fairmonts with 15 inch alloys had hubcaps -because you couldn't see through to the brake disc. To me that is just dumb. Even cars today with hubcaps (except those super economical hybrids) have ventilation holes to aid brake cooling. I thought the whole point with alloy wheels was light weight and heat dissapation.... ![]() Back to original poster and his brake dilemma. I've just bought for my Fairmont AUIII a set of DBA slotted rotors and Ferodo GP2 pads. Yes, I know good first choice, not so good second. But I've used Ferodo DS in my race car with good results and I thought they were preferable to Bendix that were the only ones on offer at the auto accessory shop I went to. They squeal, so I guess I need to put some antisqueal grease on them. Don't know about brake dust yet - too new, but I hope they start to feel a bit better than they currently do. I will be towing about 1,300kg with them so I need strong brakes. |
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#45 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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i took my shields off to get any extra bit of cooling i could on mine, but i have noticed doing bed in procedure for new rotors/ pads even without the shields 8 hard stops from 60 kph will have them turning blue stinking, a bit sorry i took them off really, tempted to putem back on and just take them off for long distance towing duties, for a daily they seem to have little impact.
i usually chuck it back a cog or two if going down a long steep decent to take a bit of stress off the brakes towing or not. |
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#46 | |||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,324
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Quote:
I was led to believe the alloy wheels not only helped with looks but also being lighter weight than steel wheels helped economy a bit. as for heat dissipation, alloy doesn't conduct heat as bad as steel and if designed right can aid with additional heat removal depending on driving style, road/car conditions etc. But we could go on about this subject for ages so I wont go into it.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#47 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
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. Oval Everywhere... |
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#48 | ||
Next upgraded Mk1 Leopard
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, in the burbs
Posts: 4,908
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What about this kind of thing?
![]() Brake cooling, pushing air onto the disk? Does this work? UK
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Plastic Surgery 1 AUII Monsoon Blue How 2's: Change rear view mirror, Install backfire valve, Change foam front seats, Install auto transmission cooler, Replace Trans Shift Globe, Remove front door Trim, Paint AU headlights, install door spears, Premium Rear Parcel Shelf, go here...
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#49 | |||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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Quote:
Many modern cars have pretty good cooling directed to the brake system as standard.
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. Oval Everywhere... |
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#50 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Central Coast, NSW
Posts: 752
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Ok so many of you are missing the point of the "dust" covers. The main reason they are there is because Ford are to cheap to pain the hubs so the have the covers there to hide any unsightly rust.
The older EF/EL series cars with the proper "dust" covers were there to do just that, stop dust. Now do dust covers affect brake temperatures? later models (AU - on): Doubt you would ever notice it. The fact the the air is draw into the rotor from the back means its sucking the in the air that runs from underneath the car, so reduced air flow isn't an issue you may only see a minute change in the level of heat dissipation but not something that you would notice unless you were on a race track. Earlier Models (EF/EL): Definitely. These covers drastically reduce heat dissipation turning the wheel into an oven when towing through some twist steep mountain runs or on long continues braking situations. The disc will begin to heat, the heat then will begin to be transferred into the pads (the less pad materiel the faster this will happen) which causes the pads to cook which then let of a gas which forms almost a barrier between the pad and disc reducing almost all friction resulting in brake fade. |
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#51 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Topend of Oz since 1980
Posts: 5,299
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Greetings
I'm driving round in the tropical north most of the year. About two months ago I fitted EBC Redstuff pads with drilled and slotted discs. The first day extremely quiet then they started to squeal for about six weeks (1,000 km). Quiet now. I have said this previously and I will say it again - they grip like a saltie grabbing a feral pig from the water's edge from cold right through to approx 800C and now that they appear to be bedded in, little to no dust. Vincenzo |
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#52 | |||
rexnet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 3,562
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Quote:
no dust shields. wash your car more. problem solved ![]() |
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