The Truth About Ev's, maybe?

[Electrolyte Burns]

The potential performance with EVs is simply staggering and is hard to match with ICE.

Can't argue with that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGhjhx8O9M&t=52s

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Electrolyte Burns

The potential performance with EVs is simply staggering and is hard to match with ICE.

Can't argue with that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGhjhx8O9M&t=52s

Electric and internal combustion motors have their strengths at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Electric motors produce all their torque at 0 rpm and that torque diminishes linearly as speed increases. Internal combustion motors get more powerful as speed (rpm) increases.

No one is better, they're just different.

Hybrid is best for ultimate performance.

[Junkyard-Dog]

I'm all for EVs if they can be manufactured and fuelled in an environmentally responsible manner.

[QIKESP]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Electric motors produce all their torque at 0 rpm and that torque diminishes linearly as speed increases.

Electric motors used in EVs (ie: PMAC's) produce constant torque from 0rpm up to the base motor speed.
From there they transition into a constant power region (field weakening) up to maximum rpm.

[stefcio007]

Boom. Electric trucks powered by hydrogen.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/20626/t...anheuser-busch

[The Yeti]

Im not a fan of EV's Hybrids and the likes

BUT it's not fauctualy based it's purely emotional stuck in the past kind of way

I've have experience with them through passenger, industrial & commercial vehicles, and much of the article is factually incorrect, things in there that have some credit are week at best I mean tyre wear? They're generally simular to their IC relatives usually a few hundred kg's heavier. Yes this will make a difference? Perhaps, a material difference? I,doubt it

Over time the pricing will come down, flat earthers like myself will come around

And they will become more common on our roads

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Cruzycuzz

Many horse and buggy owners laughed at Henry Ford back in the day too.

Since Ford worked at Chevrolet before starting Ford Motor Company, i doubt it.
(i know what you're getting at, but were all car nuts here, don't treat us like noobs)

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by QIKESP

Electric motors used in EVs (ie: PMAC's) produce constant torque from 0rpm up to the base motor speed.
From there they transition into a constant power region (field weakening) up to maximum rpm.

Transitioning (field weakening) switching from parallel to series etc help mitigate the problem but don't eliminate it.

They still behave in the opposite manner to an internal combustion engine.

Same but different.

[roddy1960]

I'll buy one when they make an extension chord long enough . A question that really needs to be asked though is the life of the actual battery banks and what it'll cost if/when they degrade . I did find this for likely running costs etc. out of curiosity for the Tesla S which is the 85 kwh powerplant

https://forums.tesla.com/en_AU/forum...s-battery-life

[Maka]

Hi guys, here's some nice reading on ev's -

http://theconversation.com/australia...centives-96104

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...nate-universe/

https://www.intheblack.com/articles/...ride-taxpayers

http://www.thedrive.com/tech/20396/c...-electric-cars

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/side...-scooters.html

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Another interesting link, also a healthy debate going on in the comments section -

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/05...option-part-1/

cheers, Maka

[johntolhurst]

We can see its going to be EV because electricity prices and EV prices are falling, as are LIDAR and all that needed to go fully autonomous. The question is when. Here's a link to a video - its an hour long but it canvases the whole transport futures. Its worth the time, if you want to consider how to manage the vehicles you have today. the reason its relevant now is that the falling prices mean that EV will cost less to own than ICE sometime around 2021, he says. You can look at his numbers and reasonings etc. And when that happens the demand for oil will drop, with prices too. So, all new car operating costs will fall, and if oil prices fall, running costs for the pre-existing ICE will fall too.

That's my take from it, interested to know what others might take from it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0

Then, he says, selfdrive EVs will float around taking whoever whereever.

In think this means they won't be like a car, because they won't be personalised transport. They'll be more like driverless taxis. People who want to have a car of their own will pay more for their transport kms, but might find this better suits their needs.

[Maka]

Yes, my take is as ev's become more accessible, fossil fuels will drop in prices while future & significant advances in i.c.e technology will hopefully keep them relevant in a everchanging & greener world.

Isnt Australia a pretty clean air country compared to other countries around the world, to me theres a debate there too ie clean air standards, emissions & blanket policies/standards or tailored policies to suit each country.

cheers, Maka

[johntolhurst]

So if the cost of personal transport comes down via low cost EVs and Driverless EVs (DEVs ?) comes down, then value of 'modern', say car's under 5 years old will come down too. This suggests we might see really nice ICE vehicles at incredibly low prices. Owning a car instead of using a DEV would be something done partly through the nostalgia of the experience or because someone wants to have something that is historically significant. So we might expect rare and unique ICE vehicles to increase in value while everything else crashes.

If you are going to own an ICE vehicle in the EV world, which one would you go for and why?

It looks like there could be plenty of choice around, but always at a cost more than DEVin it, i.e. taking the soulless, driverless, techno wizzy Driverless Electric Vehicle, where you can sit in comfort and bury your head up your **** via FB as you while away the journey. Travel as a passive non-experience, detached from the environment and as engaging as airline travel, lemmings all.

[johntolhurst]

Now, one day in about 2025, I'll be driving my EV or ICE and happen to pass a long line of Driverless EVs. I'll cut in, jamb on the breaks till I'm almost stopped and turn into a side street and stop. Then I'll get out and watch to see how long the standing wave takes to clear, chuckling the whole time. Those stupid driverless EVs.

And then I'll get an interesting communication. "You have been fined for dangerous driving, the payment of $200 has been deducted from your account. Please see the attached evidence." Law enforcement agency's AI saw the video stream from the line of DEVs, it was processed via algorythms and the infringement notice was issued and billed to me while I was still parking the car. Get ready folks, its going to get a whole lot more interesting.

With so many Driverless EVs on the road, most people won't need a double garage. So there will be business around doing nothing but converting them to habitable space. No, scratch that. Into storage rooms for all that crap from China that grows each month.

[Maka]

[Quote]If you are going to own an ICE vehicle in the EV world, which one would you go for and why?[Quote]

I would wait & see whats in the market when that time arrives, i would rather drive than spend more time than i have to on social media etc & i dont have a Facebook account either lol. When I'm a senior citizen down the track things may change concerning dev ownership though.

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Here's the 2nd part of "25 factors that will affect adoption of ev's" -

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/06...option-part-2/

cheers, Maka

[johntolhurst]

He's not nearly bullish enough. All the constraints he notes will blow away when EVs can transport you for 1/10th the cost of ICE. That will be happening by 2021, according to the cost curves in solar LiDAR battery etc producing cars that are busy 40% of the time instead of 4%.

Check the video if you don't believe it. The link I posted above, Maka.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by johntolhurst

Now, one day in about 2025, I'll be driving my EV or ICE and happen to pass a long line of Driverless EVs. I'll cut in, jamb on the breaks till I'm almost stopped and turn into a side street and stop. Then I'll get out and watch to see how long the standing wave takes to clear, chuckling the whole time. Those stupid driverless EVs.

And then I'll get an interesting communication. "You have been fined for dangerous driving, the payment of $200 has been deducted from your account. Please see the attached evidence." Law enforcement agency's AI saw the video stream from the line of DEVs, it was processed via algorythms and the infringement notice was issued and billed to me while I was still parking the car. Get ready folks, its going to get a whole lot more interesting.

With so many Driverless EVs on the road, most people won't need a double garage. So there will be business around doing nothing but converting them to habitable space. No, scratch that. Into storage rooms for all that crap from China that grows each month.

You're terrible.

Recently had a ranger xlt and was checking out the lane assist "feature" on the freeway, when my passenger, a police officer no less, suggested a can of white spray paint be used down the middle of each lane.

It would cause chaos!

[stefcio007]

The industry is moving towards solar instead of coal purely from a cost to produce standpoint, not from a we want to be environmentally friendly standpoint.
Remember when the Prius came out yet Ford's Fiesta(?) was still more fuel efficient? People care about the cost not how much CO2 (+others) is coming out the rear.

Once we reach that point with cars people will stop buying combustion engine cars because they will be too expensive to run compared to EVs, the benefit to the environment will just be a bonus.

The km left in current cars is an estimate too but we don't see stranded cars everyday because people took that as truth, they filled up before it went empty. Same logic will apply to cars. In fact, by recording the driving patterns of the user it could let you know when you get home if you need to charge that night to be ready the next day.
But what if you have a trip planned you say? Well, what do you do before you go on a trip now? Make sure you've filled up. You'll do the same with electric.

Of course, this will be much simpler if we choose hydrogen as a source of energy in cars instead of batteries but there seems to be more investment in batteries than hydrogen at the moment.

[chizzy86]

Something that hasn't been discussed is that from 1 December last year, all new premises getting a meter installed for the first time, as well as existing premises getting a replacement meter, will have a smart meter installed.

Some distributors are defaulting these customers onto demand tariffs where you are charged for your peak demand over a 30 min period as well as your total consumption. Residential customers charging their cars during peak periods (around 3pm - 9pm) will be in for a rude shock when they get their bill. The kW draw of some of these chargers is enormous. Outside of the peak period and you'll be ok. I'm just dont think there has been enough consumer education in this area.

[Crazy Dazz]

Firstly, let me point out at some point in the future it may well be necessary and viable to colonise the ocean floor, and build farms in the Simpson Desert. But if you are looking to build your first home, I don’t recommend either location.
So too, justifying EV’s on the grounds that one day soon they may be viable, is absurd.

The big push for EVs’, Hybrids, and Plugin Hybrids, is in the USA. That should immediately set the alarm bells ringing.
Then consider this:
They will happily sell you a plugin Hybrid.
But if you actually want to plug it in, the cord is an expensive option.
And if you actually want to plug it in at home, or your work, the charging station is absurdly expensive.
So to make this perfectly clear, they will sell you a plugin car, with the intention that you never use the plugin feature.
It’s not that they don’t want you to, they just don’t care. Because once they hand over the keys, the plugin feature has already served its purpose.

The reason comes down to the CAFÉ rules, emission rules, and various other requirements, such as California’s ZEV targets.

Let’s take the Mustang as a classic example. Ford want you to fall in love with the V8, but they want you to drive away in an ecoboost.

The entire system is beyond absurd. If I get caught speeding, I cop a fine. But imagine instead if we were fined based on the rated top speed of our car when it leaves the factory.

Some plugin hybrids actually qualify as ZEVs, because they can be driven without ever starting the engine. So the manufacturer will get credit for selling a ZEV, even if they don’t sell you the charging cord.

These reason for these cars, for hybrids, and for eco-boosts, is that they allow manufacturers to game the system. These cars are precisely tuned to return superlative figures when driven according to the standard. Including allowing hybrids to use the charge in the battery. The Dieselgate scandal was just the tip of the iceberg. Everybody does it, VW were just more “German” about their cheating.
So instead of a V8, Ford will sell you a turbocharged 4 or V6. They know those engines have shorter lives, and if driven to potential will have worse emissions and consumption, but all that matters is the official test figures.

And of course the biggest joke is that your average American drives a filthy great SUV or Truck, which are still getting bigger and heavier, but are exempt from the CAFÉ rules.

[johntolhurst]

Ev will in a few years be better value than ice. Because technology costs drop predictably.

The biggest push for EV is in China, with about all major auto makers investing there for EV. there are 12 LiIon giga factories being built as big as Elon Musk's. It's on.

The big F350s being driven as a regular fg utes are here is indeed absurd, but just a taste of what passes for rational in the US

[stefcio007]

Originally Posted by johntolhurst

Ev will in a few years be better value than ice. Because technology costs drop predictably.

The biggest push for EV is in China, with about all major auto makers investing there for EV. there are 12 LiIon giga factories being built as big as Elon Musk's. It's on.

The big F350s being driven as a regular fg utes are here is indeed absurd, but just a taste of what passes for rational in the US

I was on weibo yesterday, lots of electric cars being showed.
or us though this means competition that theoretically drives innovation and also manufacturing capability which will be needed for EVs of any kind to take off.

The question is, even if it does take off, will out market be even considered?

[Maka]

Originally Posted by stefcio007

I was on weibo yesterday, lots of electric cars being showed.
or us though this means competition that theoretically drives innovation and also manufacturing capability which will be needed for EVs of any kind to take off.

The question is, even if it does take off, will out market be even considered?

Our market hopefully will eventually be driven from within imo by demand & we have great local innovators to design the best ev's to suit this country. Imports shouldnt dominate our market, only augment it.

It's the government who must make incentives available for homegrown big business to expand into ev building thus providing employment & growing this exciting new industry here in Australia.

cheers, Maka

[stefcio007]

Originally Posted by Maka

Our market hopefully will eventually be driven from within imo by demand & we have great local innovators to design the best ev's to suit this country. Imports shouldnt dominate our market, only augment it.

It's the government who must make incentives available for homegrown big business to expand into ev building thus providing employment & growing this exciting new industry here in Australia.

cheers, Maka

True, so basically what California is doing?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Firstly, let me point out at some point in the future it may well be necessary and viable to colonise the ocean floor, and build farms in the Simpson Desert. But if you are looking to build your first home, I don’t recommend either location.
So too, justifying EV’s on the grounds that one day soon they may be viable, is absurd.

The big push for EVs’, Hybrids, and Plugin Hybrids, is in the USA. That should immediately set the alarm bells ringing.
Then consider this:
They will happily sell you a plugin Hybrid.
But if you actually want to plug it in, the cord is an expensive option.
And if you actually want to plug it in at home, or your work, the charging station is absurdly expensive.
So to make this perfectly clear, they will sell you a plugin car, with the intention that you never use the plugin feature.
It’s not that they don’t want you to, they just don’t care. Because once they hand over the keys, the plugin feature has already served its purpose.

The reason comes down to the CAFÉ rules, emission rules, and various other requirements, such as California’s ZEV targets.

Let’s take the Mustang as a classic example. Ford want you to fall in love with the V8, but they want you to drive away in an ecoboost.

The entire system is beyond absurd. If I get caught speeding, I cop a fine. But imagine instead if we were fined based on the rated top speed of our car when it leaves the factory.

Some plugin hybrids actually qualify as ZEVs, because they can be driven without ever starting the engine. So the manufacturer will get credit for selling a ZEV, even if they don’t sell you the charging cord.

These reason for these cars, for hybrids, and for eco-boosts, is that they allow manufacturers to game the system. These cars are precisely tuned to return superlative figures when driven according to the standard. Including allowing hybrids to use the charge in the battery. The Dieselgate scandal was just the tip of the iceberg. Everybody does it, VW were just more “German” about their cheating.
So instead of a V8, Ford will sell you a turbocharged 4 or V6. They know those engines have shorter lives, and if driven to potential will have worse emissions and consumption, but all that matters is the official test figures.

And of course the biggest joke is that your average American drives a filthy great SUV or Truck, which are still getting bigger and heavier, but are exempt from the CAFÉ rules.

And tesla would have died long ago without the help of ford/GM having to effectively pay their bills.

[Sprintey]

Great posts on this thread, whynot's post at the start was really good.
Corolla hybrid in contention for our next upgrade, then by 2021 PHEV or full electric of someone's? Solar is on, so watching home battery tech get better and better currently.

[Sprintey]

Given the tragic death of two young motorists in a Tesla model S in Ft Lauderdale recently, can anyone school me on the difference between lithium battery packs and the nickel based ones ("old tech") of Toyota when in a crash?

I understand the lithium is likely to heat, catch fire when cracked open, then do the same to surrounding battery units, causing an inferno. Firefighters report they are not to intervene.

Will the battery in a Prius or Corolla or Camry be as explosive?

[johntolhurst]

Here's an article about the falling petrol excise income as EVs hit the streets. Petrol consumption will fall, globally, so prices should too. The top bureaucrats are seeing it coming.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-0...34?pfmredir=sm