level crossing train crash

[arm79]

Originally Posted by SlikedTurb

firstly my heart felt condolences go out to all affected families.
i don't understand why everyone is so quick to lay the blame on the Gov't or the rail company. AFAIK there was nothing wrong with the crossing, bells and lights were both working from all accounts. the only conclusion that can be reached is that it was simply driver error. if you look at the number of cars and trains that have travelled through that particular crossing and compare those figures with the number of incidents that have occured, i dare say it would be less than 1% maybe even less than 0.5%. To me that doesn't show a deficiency in the quality of the crossing.
all that aside this is still TRUELY A TRAGEDY.

I agree. While it is truely a tradgey, it always amazes me how quickly everyone is to jump and blame someone. And at the moment it always seems to be the government. We should start looking elsewhere for to account for the problems. It scares me that Australia is starting to become a society where it always someone elses fault, and not take a personal responsibility for the problem.

We seem to have had a spate of road vehicle vs train accidents in the past couple of years. More than I can remember in previous recent history. I'm sure the level crossings meet all the required standards. If a truck driver knows there is a hard to see crossing in that area, why doesn't he slow down for it. Be prepared. If its foggy and hard to see, why barrel across a crossing before slowing down and making sure there isn't a train there first.

We can't build a gated level crossing every road/track intersection. People need to be careful in these intersections, full stop. Its not rocket science. Once again it seems to be complete driver stupidity that caused the problem, and we will have to spend a few million $$$ accounting for the lowest common denominator of road drivers.

[SlikedTurb]

Originally Posted by arm79

I agree. While it is truely a tradgey, it always amazes me how quickly everyone is to jump and blame someone. And at the moment it always seems to be the government. We should start looking elsewhere for to account for the problems. It scares me that Australia is starting to become a society where it always someone elses fault, and not take a personal responsibility for the problem.

We seem to have had a spate of road vehicle vs train accidents in the past couple of years. More than I can remember in previous recent history. I'm sure the level crossings meet all the required standards. If a truck driver knows there is a hard to see crossing in that area, why doesn't he slow down for it. Be prepared. If its foggy and hard to see, why barrel across a crossing before slowing down and making sure there isn't a train there first.

We can't build a gated level crossing every road/track intersection. People need to be careful in these intersections, full stop. Its not rocket science. Once again it seems to be complete driver stupidity that caused the problem, and we will have to spend a few million $$$ accounting for the lowest common denominator of road drivers.

Very well said. i read a very good quote. "Rail crossings should be treated like a gun, always assume they are loaded." slightly off topic: i see quite often, people driving on the wrong side of the road to go around a boom gate that has been engaged. no amount of safety measures are going to stop people from being D*ckheads.

[Tuddy200]

There was no Fail Safe, the lights were the only indication that there was a train. I'm not saying that the driver wasn't to blame or is, i'm saying that there needs to be a three level safety put in place. 1. Lights 2. Boom Gates 3. Driver "looks".

At this crossing there was no 2 or 3 because no boom gates and apparently no visual due to a bend in the road. If there were lights that indicated train on crossing back around the bend, and a boom gate that is alot easier to see them lights if sun is shining, then if the accident had still of happened then you could say Driver Error, Car/Truck Mechincal Error, or Crossing Error. In the current case there is just to many factors that the investigation isn't going to get any clear outcome as to the cause.

Crossing Safety/Driver Error/Road Conditions etc. could of all played a part, but you can't change every driver from one sign but you can change a crossing to be the safest possible. I thought if the road was fairly busy then Lights and Boom Gate were required. From what I can tell of the picutres there were only lights facing th direction your coming (maybe a local can confirm for me), then you'd have to be fully around the bend before you see "your" set of lights, if boom gate was in place then you'd see further back that the other side had its boom gate down then you'd safely assume there is a train and slow down before you even get around to see the lights.

If there is a local, please correct me if there are other features other then one set of lights facing you from the side your travling towards. No is blaming the goverment, just saying they could have out more safety into level crossings and we all know driver education on them only gets through to so many, no to say they ain't at blame!

[fordfuntastic]

How could the truckie not see the train coming? In not sure of the crossing but it looks fairly flat without to many trees so I assume the area is fairly open.

Mobile phone, drugs, fatigue, chicken run what the hell? Cant understand it!

Boom Gates are people kidding? These would never have prevented this but rather would have become a spear of splinters of excalibar proportions.

To bad I cant GoogleEARTH the area to get an areal shot!!!

[JBomb3000]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

To gain a better "perspective" you need to see the aerial view of the site, the angle of the road in relation to the train line and the direction both vehicles were travelling... Lets just say the potential reasons for this tragedy become a little clearer, IMO i have doubts as to weather boom gates would have helped much.

I don't think boom gates would have helped this one, if he missed the train and the lights i doubt he would have seen the boom gates. The other thing people need to understand about the bend everyone is talking about is it's only a very slight curve, it's not like you come blind around the corner and your right upon the crossing. IMO it needs another set of light 200m further back down the road and the rail line needs to be altered so it crosses the highway at a right angle.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by fordfuntastic

How could the truckie not see the train coming? In not sure of the crossing but it looks fairly flat without to many trees so I assume the area is fairly open.

Mobile phone, drugs, fatigue, chicken run what the hell? Cant understand it!

Boom Gates are people kidding? These would never have prevented this but rather would have become a spear of splinters of excalibar proportions.

To bad I cant GoogleEARTH the area to get an areal shot!!!

The cossing is on a bit of an angle, not at 90 degrees to the highway. I'm not speaking specifically of this incident, because i havent even heard which way a the truck/train were travelling. BUT, it may seem easy, in a car, but 7 if the train was coming from the drivers left, and he was travelling at an angle heading diagonally across the tracks from left to right, it is impossible to see off to the distance on your left in a cabover truck. When you look in the direction of the train, you're looking at the inside wall of your sleeper. You either have to stand up in your seat and lean right over, which is dangerous in its own right, or slow right down, swing out to the right and back to the left so you are at 90 degrees to the track and look out your window. Sucks trying to make right hand turns at T intersections where you cant see far because of a crest and you have no room to swing out for a look. You have to jump out of your seat, lean right over and look, then drop down into your seat and just go for it and home the road is still clear in the time it takes you to get out and over.

So the vision part is not the easiest thing, but as far as not seeing the lights, only the driver knows what happened there.



Does anyone know weather the road has been re opened, or when it is scheduled to re open? Heading for robinvale tomorrow arvo or friday morning.


And from what i heard on the news from a government official, to revamp a crossing, and install lighting, signage, and boom gates comes to around $440,000

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by schmidty

The cossing is on a bit of an angle, not at 90 degrees to the highway. I'm not speaking specifically of this incident, because i havent even heard which way a the truck/train were travelling. BUT, it may seem easy, in a car, but 7 if the train was coming from the drivers left, and he was travelling at an angle heading diagonally across the tracks from left to right, it is impossible to see off to the distance on your left in a cabover truck. When you look in the direction of the train, you're looking at the inside wall of your sleeper. You either have to stand up in your seat and lean right over, which is dangerous in its own right, or slow right down, swing out to the right and back to the left so you are at 90 degrees to the track and look out your window. Sucks trying to make right hand turns at T intersections where you cant see far because of a crest and you have no room to swing out for a look. You have to jump out of your seat, lean right over and look, then drop down into your seat and just go for it and home the road is still clear in the time it takes you to get out and over.

So the vision part is not the easiest thing, but as far as not seeing the lights, only the driver knows what happened there.



Does anyone know weather the road has been re opened, or when it is scheduled to re open? Heading for robinvale tomorrow arvo or friday morning.


And from what i heard on the news from a government official, to revamp a crossing, and install lighting, signage, and boom gates comes to around $440,000

Actually in the Herald sun there was an aerial shot and it showed the intersection and preceeding road/rail, the view shows that the train was actually travelling toward the truck from the LEFT front FORWARD side of the truck.
Due to the angle of the crossing it meant that the train was actually approaching from about 135 deg "left of truck" or more "head on" towards the truck as opposed to 90 deg for a traditional symetrical "square" crossing where it would pass across the front of the truck, i really dont know how he couldnt have seen the train for hundreds of meters back...

[Thornie]

Recieved a text from my mum this morning, my godmother who lives in swan hill was actually ment to be on the train yesterday but had to cancel due to her having the flu and put the trip back a week, so i told her to go buy a lotto ticket

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Actually in the Herald sun there was an aerial shot and it showed the intersection and preceeding road/rail, the view shows that the train was actually travelling toward the truck from the LEFT front FORWARD side of the truck.
Due to the angle of the crossing it meant that the train was actually approaching from about 135 deg "left of truck" or more "head on" towards the truck as opposed to 90 deg for a traditional symetrical "square" crossing where it would pass across the front of the truck, i really dont know how he couldnt have seen the train for hundreds of meters back...

Ok cool. knew the crossing was angled, but yeah, didnt realise the direction of travel of both truck and train. Just a general comment.

[JBomb3000]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Does anyone know weather the road has been re opened, or when it is scheduled to re open? Heading for robinvale tomorrow arvo or friday morning.

The word up here is it MIGHT be open again sometime friday. PM if you want and i can give you a short cut that is alot shorter than the official way they are diverting traffic depending on what you are driving.

[schmidty]

Thanks for the info Jbomb.

[new2ford]

Every level crossing accident is vehicle driver error - its like running a red light. Having said that there are locality circumstances. Building bridges at 10,000 to 20,000 level crossings in a big flat country is clearly impractical. The simple solution is for the road authorities to build some measures on the road approaches- a 60kph speed limit about a kilometre or so back reinforced by speed cameras if necessary, together with very large warning signs.

Excessive speed might then be reduced giving time to brake. If you ARE going too fast then you need to ditch the vehicle off the side before you reach the crossing - the truckie clearly tried to do this but too late. Rolling in a ditch is clearly preferable to colliding with a train.

BTW those who think the railway lights/bells can be duplicated further back up the road its not possible. The lights bells are part of the track circuitry within the railway reserve. Its up to the road authority to put measures in further up the road and this they MUST do. In NSW the RTA might have the intelligence to do this - and they should pay attention to this sort of safety issue rather than hiding cameras in unmarked cars. As for VicRoads I don't hold much hope.

This is a road problem not a rail one and the people in the train are the innocent victims.

[ebxr8240]

Lights 100m back up the road.. Or gates there? I hope this doesn't become an authorirty issue?? Just do something!!! They say they do after every accident like this...
I feel so sorry for the people who died in this accident including the driver and Police / emergency crew that had to clean this accident up... They won't get over it either...

[arm79]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Lights 100m back up the road.. Or gates there? I hope this doesn't become an authorirty issue?? Just do something!!! They say they do after every accident like this...
I feel so sorry for the people who died in this accident including the driver and Police / emergency crew that had to clean this accident up... They won't get over it either...

How do you fix the problem of stupid uncaring drivers???

If you can tell us how, you'd be getting Australia's highest award. And please don't say more lights or cameras or signs. They are there for the dim witted, and obviously don't work, as the dim witted keep getting stupider, and the signs and warnings cant keep up with them.

[SlikedTurb]

Originally Posted by arm79

How do you fix the problem of stupid uncaring drivers???

If you can tell us how, you'd be getting Australia's highest award. And please don't say more lights or cameras or signs. They are there for the dim witted, and obviously don't work, as the dim witted keep getting stupider, and the signs and warnings cant keep up with them.

couldn't have said it any better!!

[4Vman]

In all honesty are railway flashing lights any different to traffic stop lights? how many people inadvertantly for what ever reason sail through an intersection against a red light every day... i see it way too often..
If you had massive steel posts that sprung up out of the ground with bright lights on them i bet people would still go ploughing into them, ive also seen boom gates smashed off their mounts plenty of times, the only difference between running stop lights at an intersection and railway crossing lights is the magnitude of the accident.

[Flouro_Joe]

Lights don't stop them trying to outrun a train but boom gates might.

[Zoink]

Well here is news of the NT governments answer to the problems at level crossings.
What a bunch of clueless fools….

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...6/s1945225.htm

The Northern Territory Government has released details of harsher penalties for not stopping at crossings.

The NT transport minister Delia Lawrie says the government will lift fines to $500 for each infringement.

Bryan Nye from the Australasian Railway Association says that's not enough and is recommending the fine be at least $2,000.

The Association has been lobbying and state and territory ministers arguing that the fine for breaching level crossings should be the same as for reckless driving.

But Delia Lawrie says this increase sends a firm enough message.

"An $80 fine previously, up to $500, is a significant increase," she said.

"It's a more than a five-fold increase, so it certainly sends a strong message out to road users to take level crossings extremely seriously."

The new fines are due to come into effect on July the first.

[Melz]

Was I hearing things or are they really charging the truck driver on 11 counts of culpable driving???

[4Vman]

A Victorian Police superintendant was just on the radio, he said "the great wall of china could have been at that crossing and it wouldnt have stopped it from happening"... obviously a bit of insight into how the Police are seeing the accident..

[Bill_R]

Originally Posted by Melz

Was I hearing things or are they really charging the truck driver on 11 counts of culpable driving???

I just heard 1 count of culpable driving. Had heard 11 before he was charged.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by arm79

How do you fix the problem of stupid uncaring drivers???

If you can tell us how, you'd be getting Australia's highest award. And please don't say more lights or cameras or signs. They are there for the dim witted, and obviously don't work, as the dim witted keep getting stupider, and the signs and warnings cant keep up with them.

From my knowledge these lights etc are at the railway Crossing....Which is fine for a car...We can assume he was trying to outrun the train ? But then again he may have not either... It's conjecture !!! He may have been half asleep ?? Or very tired ??
Yes he'll be charged , then its up to the courts to work it out..
Either way there must be ways to make these crossings safer...
Radar and higher fines won't help....

[LUXO_8]

i realise its not possible everywhere, but at dangerous crossings like this one, wouldn't an overpass be far better?....... people can complain about the cost all they like, but what cost can be put on lives?.

boom gates in this instance would do nothing, but an overpass would have completely avoided the issue

[SlikedTurb]

Originally Posted by Melz

Was I hearing things or are they really charging the truck driver on 11 counts of culpable driving???

if he's found guilty he should have the book and more Thrown at him!!

[LindsayGT]

1. More lights further back.

2. Create a bend in the road so that trucks are forced to drop back to say 60km/h. Quite easy to do but much more costly than boom gates.

Long straight roads only encourage the "cowboy" truckies to try and race the trains. The professional drivers would never do this.

[fordfuntastic]

Jesus people how many of you are not cautious of any rural train crossing. Whenever I have gone across one I look many many time either side and never ROAR through it even if the warning lights are off and no train coming for miles.

Even in suburbia with boom gates I still check both sides when no train is meant to be there! I do this in case the signals are not working/ boom gates. My family and myself are too important than being mutilated into un reckognisable pieces via my failure to see a train.

I think some truckies feel invincible with all that iron. "Im sorry",,, to late buddy,,, families are forever changed by your neglect and failure to stop. If train crossings are at more than right angles then I treat them as STOP sign intersections. Other than that, its suicide and or murder?manslaughter. Thats just me sorry!

[Nostalgia]

Some of the comments/suggestions on this incident are totally useless. Im surprised no one has suggested that traffic lights, stop signs and give way signs should be placed on the tracks and the train drivers must obey them. Ferchristsakes people, we need to treat every level crossing like a T-intersection, slow down or stop if necessary(look left, look right then look left and right again) whether it be in suburbia or country area. This is a terrible tragedy which should never have happened. My heartfelt condolences go out to all family and friends of the deceased and i wish all the best for the survivors.

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by LindsayGT

1. More lights further back.

2. Create a bend in the road so that trucks are forced to drop back to say 60km/h. Quite easy to do but much more costly than boom gates.

Long straight roads only encourage the "cowboy" truckies to try and race the trains. The professional drivers would never do this.

1) Yes, good point totally agree.

2)Are you for real ?? And have trucks rolling over and having head ons with other vehicles !

3)Ummm, your point is ??? Race trains ?? in a 62.5 tonne B Double ??, they dont exactly accelerate like a family car when they are loaded.

My suggestions would be to install flashing lights 200metres before the rail crossing, bright in color not dull red like existing ones.

Realign roads so vehicles dont approach railway lines on angles.

Grade seperate railways and roads, ie: railway under road or over road on roads classified as HIGHWAYS !

My condolences to the families and friends of those killed or injured in this accident.

And last but not least, dont hang the truck driver, he has been driving for Cannys for over 20 years, with a near un blemished record, no drugs were found in his truck or in his system.
He has caused a horrific accident, not intentional !
He has probably driven 4,000,000 + kilometres in his 20 years + as a driver.

Let the justice system take due course, he will recieve what is deemed by the courts as fair punishment.

Wrong place wrong time, and a tragic outcome for all involved.

[Flouro_Joe]

Originally Posted by Bill_R

I just heard 1 count of culpable driving. Had heard 11 before he was charged.

I got charged with one count of culpable driving because the guy in the other car I hit wasn't wearing a seatbelt and got a broken leg. No one else was injured. They need to add a "causing death" to his charges. He should go to jail for around 5 years. NSW driver got 8 years for one death (and a stack of injuries) but he was highly criminal because he knew his brakes were faulty, had plates calculated to deceive and was into drugs as well.

[AlbertM]

I hate to say it but no amount of warnigs will help if the driver is ignorant of them.

The level crossing had audible and visual warnings, that is more protection than a normal set of traffic lights. Something like this would be no different from the truck running a red light and hitting a bus. Yet people seem to think that the railway should do more. Trains should be treated just like other road uses, give way, stop...etc