Ford to revive rear-wheel drive in U.S. - Page 2

Bossxr8 · 25-03-2008, 07:31 PM

Thats a joke if they reckon we couldn't do it cheaper, Ford Australia could design and engineer the platform from the ground up for probably half the price the Yanks could. Its widely known the yanks need a hell of a lot more people and dollars to do the same job as others do with a lot less. They waste so much time and money on these projects and they turn out to be utter piles of crap anyway. Why do you think Ford Australia got the Indian Fiesta and T6 light truck programs, because they can do it better and cheaper than anyone else in the Ford empire could.

Looks like its just another case of Detroit having its head so far up its own rectum they can't see the light. Don't want to be shown up by Ausralia. Just pathetic. They will probably spend months and tens of millions of dollars trying to fit a live axle under it the fn clowns.

King Nothing · 25-03-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

Falcon is but one of many (American) cars that will be built off this platform, so yes its the yanks' call there. You don't think that Aussie engineers (and their data) can get the yanks up to speed? and for a minimal amount of dollars?

I'm not saying that the yanks definatly won't do a good job, they might. But I'm not over the moon optimistic. To put an analogy out there (and I know it will probably be torn to shreds), who would you rather work on your car, the senior mechanic or the apprentice? The mechanic can give all the advice in the world, but the apprentice doesn't have the experience, as good as he might be (no offence to any apprentices here either).

As stated above, the yanks haven't had a decent modern platform since the 70s. The falcon has been (overall) a fairly successful rwd car for the last half century! It's only recently (with the exception of the late 80s with the Scorpio or whatever it was) that the falcons existence has come into question and thats because of high petrol prices and bad dealers, not the car itself.

Again, I think the decision has been influenced by "America first" attitudes. They will have the final say in every step of the design, regardless of Australian experience. Not saying they will stuff it, but again im not hopeful either. If its worse than the VE platform I'll be screaming.

I wouldnt be too hopeful about a "seen the light" attitude (not having a go mate

), it is a company which is losing truckloads of money due to poor decisions. I imagine there will be a few more bad ones to come yet.

schnoods · 25-03-2008, 07:37 PM

Could be worse, they might want to revisit the Ka or the Cougar.....

Honestly it couldnt be possible to bring out a RWD platform that looks half good at least, has reasonable handling and enough to put some sort of grunt into it???

I hope they dont try some "cutting edge" technology and end up looking like something out of the Jetsons..... ( Ala AU).

DanielXR8 · 25-03-2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

And again...FFS they are not having input into the styling, the story was all about the engineering of Fords new global RWD platform. Get over the AUs styling! It was two generations ago! I read an interview with Mullaly where (he was admittedly sketchy on what was happening with the platform at that time) he said Ford Oz would have complete control over the next Falcons interior and exterior styling.

To be fair, if the FG Falcon doesn't perform brilliantly in the sales charts, you can bet that parts of US Ford will be argueing that we should get whatever they make, slightly warmed over. Don't forget this is the crowd who gave us the Tarius, which was inferior in every way to the Falcon of the time. Didn't stop them foisting it on Ford Australia.

Also they are just plain arrogant and ignorant in equal measure. So your company is in the deep end, money is poring out everywhere, 41% of your domestic market wont consider you (US) and you need a great, no brilliant RWD car to replace the dinosaurs you have made for nearly three decades.

You look around and in Australia you have the single best RWD platform and engineers in the Ford company. No one else in the company can touch them. Absolutely no one knows how to do it better or for as little money. So you ignore them and give primary responsibility to the good ol boys. The ones that gave the US the American Focus, because a warmed over decade old car with awkward styling cues was always a better choice then the best the engineers in Europe could put on a boat or be built in the US with some strategic thinking.

Lesson learned by Ford US? No. Mistake about to happen. Yeap.

With Falcon sales never likely to recover they now have their chance to finally kill it off. Yes I think the American Falcon is coming and probably after this generation of Falcon.

The Falcon with some cash and a real will to make it all it could be, is capable of being as good as any platform on the market. Now we will never know.

Bloody shame.
Dan

LeadFoot81 · 25-03-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Nothing

I'm not saying that the yanks definatly won't do a good job, they might. But I'm not over the moon optimistic. To put an analogy out there (and I know it will probably be torn to shreds), who would you rather work on your car, the senior mechanic or the apprentice? The mechanic can give all the advice in the world, but the apprentice doesn't have the experience, as good as he might be (no offence to any apprentices here either).

As stated above, the yanks haven't had a decent modern platform since the 70s. The falcon has been (overall) a fairly successful rwd car for the last half century! It's only recently (with the exception of the late 80s with the Scorpio or whatever it was) that the falcons existence has come into question and thats because of high petrol prices and bad dealers, not the car itself.

Again, I think the decision has been influenced by "America first" attitudes. They will have the final say in every step of the design, regardless of Australian experience. Not saying they will stuff it, but again im not hopeful either. If its worse than the VE platform I'll be screaming.

I wouldnt be too hopeful about a "seen the light" attitude (not having a go mate

), it is a company which is losing truckloads of money due to poor decisions. I imagine there will be a few more bad ones to come yet.

You really believe the company is making bad decisions, right now? Its losing money now, becuase of poor decisions in the past, do you think the decision to sell the new Fiesta and Focus around the world is a poor decision? That creating a new RWD platform with common engines is a bad idea? Thanks to the yanks poor decision making, oz gets diesel and twin turbo engines in the blink of an eye, engines that couldntve been developed locally. Who knows what other perks Ford oz will get out of this all? Never mind the RWD arsenal Ford cna apply around the rest of the world.

LeadFoot81 · 25-03-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

To be fair, if the FG Falcon doesn't perform brilliantly in the sales charts, you can bet that parts of US Ford will be argueing that we should get whatever they make, slightly warmed over. Don't forget this is the crowd who gave us the Tarius, which was inferior in every way to the Falcon of the time. Didn't stop them foisting it on Ford Australia.

Also they are just plain arrogant and ignorant in equal measure. So your company is in the deep end, money is poring out everywhere, 41% of your domestic market wont consider you (US) and you need a great, no brilliant RWD car to replace the dinosaurs you have made for nearly three decades.

You look around and in Australia you have the single best RWD platform and engineers in the Ford company. No one else in the company can touch them. Absolutely no one knows how to do it better or for as little money. So you ignore them and give primary responsibility to the good ol boys. The ones that gave the US the American Focus, because a warmed over decade old car with awkward styling cues was always a better choice then the best the engineers in Europe could put on a boat or be built in the US with some strategic thinking.

Lesson learned by Ford US? No. Mistake about to happen. Yeap.

With Falcon sales never likely to recover they now have their chance to finally kill it off. Yes I think the American Falcon is coming and probably after this generation of Falcon.

The Falcon with some cash and a real will to make it all it could be, is capable of being as good as any platform on the market. Now we will never know.

Bloody shame.
Dan

You're right mate, Ford US want to ruin Ford Australia. I cant believe youve seen it all along and I missed it! case closed!

Bossxr8 · 25-03-2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

You're right mate, Ford US want to ruin Ford Australia. I cant believe youve seen it all along and I missed it! case closed!

They don't want to ruin Ford Australia, but you can bet they will build the platform to their wants and needs, not whats best like Ford Australia would do. They would rather get what they want even if it makes things difficult for us.

The current Mustang is a classic example, its crying out for IRS but because its more expensive and doesn't suit drag racing they put a decades old live axle in it, so all the critics pan it and it handles like crap. See the GT500 on TopGear when the Stig takes it round the track, and it wallows around like the suspension is made from jelly. Just wait to the Camaro goes on sale and the comparisons to Mustang start, and then it will be massively exposed on the handling front by the superior multi link IRS in the Camaro.

Nikked · 25-03-2008, 09:39 PM

Its wierd, people on this board have said that the falcons only chance for survival is export...

...Now we are exporting our knowlage base to create a global RWD platform, similer to what GM is doing with holden, the Aus dollar doesn't favor a full-on export program of cars. Some are even taking the term 'input' too lightly, as if it is a term to describe one or two small comments.

We will still have a home growen falcon

Windsor220 · 25-03-2008, 09:51 PM

Ford cant really afford to stuff this up. I dont think they are going to screw Ford Aus thats why they're asking us for input. Having a global platform can only be a good thing.

LeadFoot81 · 25-03-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They don't want to ruin Ford Australia, but you can bet they will build the platform to their wants and needs, not whats best like Ford Australia would do. They would rather get what they want even if it makes things difficult for us.

The current Mustang is a classic example, its crying out for IRS but because its more expensive and doesn't suit drag racing they put a decades old live axle in it, so all the critics pan it and it handles like crap. See the GT500 on TopGear when the Stig takes it round the track, and it wallows around like the suspension is made from jelly. Just wait to the Camaro goes on sale and the comparisons to Mustang start, and then it will be massively exposed on the handling front by the superior multi link IRS in the Camaro.

But how well does the Mustang sell? And how happy is the Mustang's intended audience? Youre ignoring those points! There are IRS equipped Mustangs, SVT etc anyway!

The Stig may like to push his cars around a racetrack, but Joe Average doesnt give a toss! Again, what does the intended American audience want/need?

"they will build the platform to their wants and needs, not whats best like Ford Australia would do. They would rather get what they want even if it makes things difficult for us"

Their coughing up the money for a platform that will underpin various Fords/Lincolns, of course they can and will do what they want and what they have to do to build cars that Americans want! Whats wrong with that? You're convinced that even though the US brass is impressed with FG, theyll just build a poxy live axled rwd platfrm thats worse than FG? Get a grip!

barbarian · 26-03-2008, 09:29 AM

My perception from this current development is:

- Ford Aus exports its know how to US and in turn, they will go ahead with improving & updating the current successfully proven FG platform in US rather than here.
- Ford Aus decides its more cost efficient to go global thus ensuring Falcons production in Aus in the coming years
- 2012-2013 Mustangs will most likely to have an updated and improved FG platform, with possible exports to Aus, like how Holden will be bringing the Camaro down here.
- Ford Aus engineers could quite possibly have more input than the yanky engineers, in this global RWD project

King Nothing · 26-03-2008, 10:19 AM

I agree a global platform, done correctly, will be a Godsend. I really, really hope you guys are right and I wish I had your optimism.

To me though, Ford US doesn't exactly have the best track history in the last decade (and possibly beyond), otherwise they wouldn't be in the predicament they are in now. I'm just saying I wouldn't be suprised if they stuff it up.

LeadFoot81 · 26-03-2008, 11:15 AM

Dont look at where theyve been, look at where theyre going...

imugli · 26-03-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

Dont look at where theyve been, look at where theyre going...

Which is where?

I agree that GRWD a godsend. I just have absolutely no faith in Ford US being able to pull this off though...

Reason? They haven't actually developed a platform themselves since DEW98 - everything else rides on modified platforms of other brands vehicles or uses a ladder chassis...

Focus - previous gen euro platform.
Fusion / Milan / MKZ / Edge / MKX - Mazda 6
Taurus / Lincoln MKS - VOLVO FFS!

Now they have the balls to say Hey, you guys in Oz have done a great job but we think it will cost us less and be more successful if we take it from here? PLEASE!

:

LeadFoot81 · 26-03-2008, 01:34 PM

Imugli, its not you thats ugly, its your lack of faith in Fomoco thats ugly. So sad. *shakes head*

Seriously though the die has been cast, all we can do is sit back and watch the kaffufel!

imugli · 26-03-2008, 01:51 PM

I have faith in Ford and especially Mullaly and I believe they are starting to do some good things. It's especially pleasing to see Lincoln being brought off life support. Give me a Linc over a Caddy any day.

I question the wisdom of following the Toyota road to world domination - same car, same platform, every country - given that Toyota are known for building whitegoods more than they are cars. Alas, apparently there is money to be made in selling the same whitegoods the world over. But I digress.

Faith in the Ford empire is a strange thing... Ford Europe design and develop great FWD cars. AUS designs and develops the best RWD platform in the empire. US do so with heavy duty SUV (except of course for the don't roll me over explorer) / Pickups. They just happen to be a dying breed of car... Which leads me to the conclusion that rather than employ the best RWD development strategy they can, they'd rather find jobs for x thousand more people than they need to and spend x hundred million more than they need to so they can keep the UAW happy and the rest of the empire riding on an inferior platform. Yes, those kinds of decisions erode my faith...

Believe me, I certainly hope I'm wrong and that the GRWD is a stunner - I'll be the first to eat my words...

LeadFoot81 · 26-03-2008, 02:38 PM

Things arent as black and white for Ford management as we'd like them to be, as youve said they have to keep a whole lot of people in the US happy at the same time as trying to turn the company around.
Mullaly seems keen on developing a global catalogue of dynamic cars, rather than whitegoods. Fingers crossed!

Serial_Fool · 26-03-2008, 02:38 PM

Ford Australia's RWD platform has been superior in everyway since the death of the 70's. I have no faith what-so-ever in Ford America's compedency to build a DECENT Rwd platform.

I'm a fan of Ford Australia, not of Ford America - they make stuiped decisions regaurding important issues. As far as I am considered they should of been looking to Australia for a RWD car around the time the AU was being developed.

Now they are stuffed with outdated cars and are looking to make themselves a new RWD platform which in all likelyness is going to be crap. Maybe they should of took alittle more notice of the Falcon in the late 90's/ early 00's to find a perfectly good design that would of suited their conditions.

Does anyone remember the article from America that popped up a few years ago? It comments about the Falcon "...... Australia has become the place to find the quintessential American muscle sedan."

I think Ford America has been pussy whipped by the Automotive Unions in America and can't make any bold decisions apart from "Live axle cars are aiiggghhtttt", " The American Focus is much superior styling wise", "FWD car handle and perform better".

Mark my words, Ford will cease to exist in 20 years. :togo:

LeadFoot81 · 26-03-2008, 02:47 PM

20 years? After the panning you just gave Ford it sounds like they wont last 2!

RPO83 · 26-03-2008, 03:44 PM

It doesn't matter where the CoE will be, Ford are not going to be insular with this project. No doubt the global divisions using this application will adapt to suit local markets in which it will compete in.

Ford have always held their cards closer than General Motors on platform development, where the CoE will be, what cars will be underpinned by it and drivetrain choices are never given major media coverage this early into a project. An example of this is the T6 project FoA are working hard on, it has hardly been made mention of in the media or even on this forum for that matter.

Lets not stress!

irlewy86 · 26-03-2008, 04:41 PM

Lets hope the T6 is a cracker, Ranger is starting to build a decent name and if the T6 takes the fight up it might just knock the Lux off the mantle.

Bossxr8 · 26-03-2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

But how well does the Mustang sell? And how happy is the Mustang's intended audience? Youre ignoring those points! There are IRS equipped Mustangs, SVT etc anyway!

Their coughing up the money for a platform that will underpin various Fords/Lincolns, of course they can and will do what they want and what they have to do to build cars that Americans want! Whats wrong with that? You're convinced that even though the US brass is impressed with FG, theyll just build a poxy live axled rwd platfrm thats worse than FG? Get a grip!

I don't expect the new platform to be live axled, I was making a point that some of the retards inside Ford NA will probably push for it though, because its cheaper. The same people who decided not to import the current Focus and to just rehash the old model because its cheaper, and then make it look like a . And the same people who continue to justify using a near 40 year body on frame chassis in the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis.

As for how good the platform may be, well thats the problem, they made a dogs breakfast out of the DEW98 platform, and it was really expensive to make too. The thing I do believe is that if Ford Australia had total control over the platform it would easily be superior to whatever the yanks do.

The only Mustang to have IRS was the discontinued Mustang Cobra.
Yes the Mustang sells pretty well, but mostly because its a Mustang and because it looks good, and it has no competition. As much as I hate to say it when it goes on sale the Camaro will be a much better drivers car, and will also have tough looks. Which car will people choose, looks or looks and performance/handling. Ford will need to respond to the threat because the Camaro will take a serious swipe at Mustang sales.

You only need to read one of the US Mustang mags to see the letters people wrote when the new Mustang was revealed with a live axle, some people thought it was a joke.

Dr Smith · 26-03-2008, 06:59 PM

Maybe we should look at it from a half glass full view rather then great pessimism. Eg less money needed to be spent by Ford Oz on a unique platform and more available to be spent where it will be more obvious, like even greater model differentiation, higher level of spec features, mabe a wagon with IRS, LWB versions. Added with using a Ford US R&D engine with further tweaking here and maybe all doesn't seem as gloomy.

And don't forget Focus being built here and Terry as well and maybe Ford Oz is actually in a better position for future production then Toyota or Holden as FoMoCo Oz will have much greater model diversity.

Bossxr8 · 26-03-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Maybe we should look at it from a half glass full view rather then great pessimism. Eg less money needed to be spent by Ford Oz on a unique platform and more available to be spent where it will be more obvious, like even greater model differentiation, higher level of spec features, mabe a wagon with IRS, LWB versions. Added with using a Ford US R&D engine with further tweaking here and maybe all doesn't seem as gloomy.

And don't forget Focus being built here and Terry as well and maybe Ford Oz is actually in a better position for future production then Toyota or Holden as FoMoCo Oz will have much greater model diversity.

Yes thats true, with a shared platform and shared engines R&D costs will be considerably reduced, as long as Ford Australia don't have to spend millions changing them to suit our needs. Those 2 things should secure the Falcons future.

LeadFoot81 · 26-03-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I don't expect the new platform to be live axled, I was making a point that some of the retards inside Ford NA will probably push for it though, because its cheaper. The same people who decided not to import the current Focus and to just rehash the old model because its cheaper, and then make it look like a . And the same people who continue to justify using a near 40 year body on frame chassis in the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis.

As for how good the platform may be, well thats the problem, they made a dogs breakfast out of the DEW98 platform, and it was really expensive to make too. The thing I do believe is that if Ford Australia had total control over the platform it would easily be superior to whatever the yanks do.

The only Mustang to have IRS was the discontinued Mustang Cobra.
Yes the Mustang sells pretty well, but mostly because its a Mustang and because it looks good, and it has no competition. As much as I hate to say it when it goes on sale the Camaro will be a much better drivers car, and will also have tough looks. Which car will people choose, looks or looks and performance/handling. Ford will need to respond to the threat because the Camaro will take a serious swipe at Mustang sales.

You only need to read one of the US Mustang mags to see the letters people wrote when the new Mustang was revealed with a live axle, some people thought it was a joke.

So Camaro is on the way, Pontiac has the G8, and coincidentally Ford want to design a modern, global IRS'ed platform? And you still think theyve got NFI? Fair enough, we'll all wait and see what happens, some of us will dwell on the mistakes of the *past* and some of us will look to the future with a measure of optimism.

Nikked · 26-03-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I don't expect the new platform to be live axled, I was making a point that some of the retards inside Ford NA will probably push for it though, because its cheaper. The same people who decided not to import the current Focus and to just rehash the old model because its cheaper, and then make it look like a . And the same people who continue to justify using a near 40 year body on frame chassis in the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis.

But these are the reasons why Ford Aust is helping with the global platform, so they have a cheap IRS and a platform to build a better car on...it not that hard to comprehend.

:

LeadFoot81 · 26-03-2008, 11:14 PM

We can argue about this forever, until the new platform is released and its *perfect* some people wont be happy.

**DJM83** · 28-03-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

Tool !

Ditto, re my sig. Takes a real ford fan to put their money where their mouth is and buy an AU. I hated them till i had one now ive had 2 and am close to the pinnicle of the AU, LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY AU

Nikked · 28-03-2008, 06:43 PM

The Australian Designed AU can't be too bad, after all the Merc CLS has a AU Boot and Lights...

...Au was ahead of its time.

Gotta love those T3's toughest looking car from that era...

McobraR · 28-03-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

The Australian Designed AU can't be too bad, after all the Merc CLS has a AU Boot and Lights...

...Au was ahead of its time.

Gotta love those T3's toughest looking car from that era...

Thing is, the CLS' rear is better integrated into the car, and the fact that its got a coupe like stance is why it looks good. imo, and in many others, the AU did not look good and still doesnt, with the exception of the XR's and T series :sm_drool: