New Holden adds-sign of desperation?

[BadMac]

The sad thing is that these are actually the Ford FG adds, the ford marketing people have just used the wrong pics, again. After those launch shots they decided to use the Holden contractor to take shots that actually made the car look good. The contractor sent the wrong pics, but Ford marketing didn't notice. [just trying to lighten the place up a little].

Oh and arguably (there has been plenty of arguement over the years) the BA/BF was superior to VY/VZ yet Holden sold more, why is FG being superior to VE going to change the numbers at the coal front?

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by HSE2

It is a great pre emptive strike against FG. If my ears are fibbing I think I heard that they were introducing V8 cylinder deactivation this year??? Was that right????

If so it’s a bit of a clue to the rest of Holden’s 60th party.

Yes, DOD Aug/Sep (already in G8 so just a matter of marketing deciding when is most beneficial time to capture the press, when is Ford next big event, thats when Holden will steal the limelight) and VF due in April next year, may catch up/suparse FG, so Ford has 9 months to make hay (it'll take that long for Ford marketing to figure out which way to point the camera). Comeon Ford get your act together, building a great car isn't the end of the job.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Yes, DOD Aug/Sep (already in G8 so just a matter of marketing deciding when is most beneficial time to capture the press, when is Ford next big event, thats when Holden will steal the limelight) and VF due in April next year, may catch up/suparse FG, so Ford has 9 months to make hay (it'll take that long for Ford marketing to figure out which way to point the camera). Comeon Ford get your act together, building a great car isn't the end of the job.

Holden will need that time just to get their interiors up to scratch. I know you aren't the biggest fan but thankfully you are in the minority on this point. Even the press have got this one right.

The V6 will be hard to fix but the rest should be easy. More rigid starting point will make suspension fine tuning a relatively straight forward process. Design wise there are now obvious clues that will rectify what shouldn’t have been made in the first place.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

what a load of male bovine excrement he stated the ford product was superior . this is a fact the holden doesn't even have a tiptronic transmission ( at least the rental car i was in this week didn't) if you love the VE so much i'm sure there are plenty of crummydore forums that would welcome you.

What is tiptronic? Is the manual gating of the gear selection? If so you had better look again at the VE range.

Why would I join a Commodore forum, when I can glean information pertinent to my Ford here from the more genuine car enthusiasts.

How do you know the FG is superior .... because the Holden biased magazine editors said so? The tone and implicit content of the initial post is clearly an all too often cliched one in this particular forum. Ir's all emotional anti Holden claptrap regularly peaking in some hysterical posts and thread locked.

I don't know your credentials and you don't know mine, but I would guess I have several decades on you in terms of years and engineering experience. Something that comes with that maturity is less tunnel vision.

If Holden raises the bar and Ford respond, then Holden in return, isn't that a good thing for our little island outpost where RWD saloons are hanging in there?

[Fordmuscle1965]

Originally Posted by Wally

How do you know this? Have you had a VE to drive around in for a week or so? Have you simiiarly had an FG to test drive?

I've just had an VE for 8 days over in tassie.

Good Points
- Handling
-

Bad Points
- Crap A-pillar, too thick
- Cruise Control
- Engine/ gearbox
- Crap ergonomics
- Cheap feel interior
- Looks

I had a poverty Omega and not being biased but my old 99 VCT Fairlane drives better and seems to have more power when overtaking,more comfort for sitting and handled a bit better. Thats a car thats almost 10 years old compared to near new with 16k on the clock. The cruise contol on the base car omegas is almost dangerous when driving in hilly country as the thing keeps kickin' back gears cause the engine doesn't have the torque to get the VE up hills : , and when decending hills the car builds up speed with cruise on. I had it set for 105km/h and by the bottom of the hill I was doing 130km/h :togo: , my old lane always stays around what it's set on. Obviously the V8 and maybe the 195kw version would do better but poverty pack is quite lame.

I'm Quite keen to grab a FG when it comes out for a comparo, but I'm sure the engine/gearbox/cruise set-up will be quite superior.

[csv8]

In Holdens add they say "a range of diesel cars is being developed and yes the do mention V8 cylinder de-activation, like the 300C" again FORD is behind the eight ball.
Lets hope Mr T comes up to the plate and strikes a few home runs.
Holden are bringing out the ESTATE in all levels and with a V8[B]FORD had better market the FG correctly or thats all folks.

[zigzagnt]

Apparently holden fans find the ads tacky and stupid as well (so a mate tells me).

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by dom_105

Ford go Better-er

Or in line withe the Game Over, Game on New Game thing

holden "Go Better"
Ford "Go Best"

[Powdered Toast Man]

The cylinder deactivation on the 6.0L has been around for years in the US versions. Holden are just going to start using it. They are deliberately making cars technologically inferior to what they should be.

Can't say the Holden ad makes me want to buy a Holden but I can see how it would look good to the majority who are uninformed and not technically minded as to know, understand, or even care who makes the car or how well it is engineered.

Ford do have a new slogan, it's on the double page ad in the latest Wheels mag. It's so memorable I can't remember what it is lol.

[stockel]

Originally Posted by Wally

What is tiptronic? Is the manual gating of the gear selection? If so you had better look again at the VE range.

Why would I join a Commodore forum, when I can glean information pertinent to my Ford here from the more genuine car enthusiasts.

How do you know the FG is superior .... because the Holden biased magazine editors said so? The tone and implicit content of the initial post is clearly an all too often cliched one in this particular forum. Ir's all emotional anti Holden claptrap regularly peaking in some hysterical posts and thread locked.

I don't know your credentials and you don't know mine, but I would guess I have several decades on you in terms of years and engineering experience. Something that comes with that maturity is less tunnel vision.

If Holden raises the bar and Ford respond, then Holden in return, isn't that a good thing for our little island outpost where RWD saloons are hanging in there?

"I'm an engineer, you know!"

[stockel]

Originally Posted by Wally

What is tiptronic? Is the manual gating of the gear selection? If so you had better look again at the VE range.

Why would I join a Commodore forum, when I can glean information pertinent to my Ford here from the more genuine car enthusiasts.

How do you know the FG is superior .... because the Holden biased magazine editors said so? The tone and implicit content of the initial post is clearly an all too often cliched one in this particular forum. Ir's all emotional anti Holden claptrap regularly peaking in some hysterical posts and thread locked.

I don't know your credentials and you don't know mine, but I would guess I have several decades on you in terms of years and engineering experience. Something that comes with that maturity is less tunnel vision.

If Holden raises the bar and Ford respond, then Holden in return, isn't that a good thing for our little island outpost where RWD saloons are hanging in there?

"I'm mature, cos I said so!"

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by asusdragon

i also want to know with holden ute ad "evolution ends here" are they not making any more utes now??? maybe not the best slogan ever i think.

Have to agree there. Heard that on the radio the other day and assumed that will be the last ute they'll be doing.... unless they plan never to make their utes any better, which would mean Ford may have one up?

I know it's bs, but heh, wrong slogan I think also..

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man

The cylinder deactivation on the 6.0L has been around for years in the US versions. Holden are just going to start using it. They are deliberately making cars technologically inferior to what they should be.

Can't say the Holden ad makes me want to buy a Holden but I can see how it would look good to the majority who are uninformed and not technically minded as to know, understand, or even care who makes the car or how well it is engineered.

Ford do have a new slogan, it's on the double page ad in the latest Wheels mag. It's so memorable I can't remember what it is lol.

Wasn't displacement on demand canned in the US models....... something about too costly to develop?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Fordmuscle1965

I've just had an VE for 8 days over in tassie.

Good Points
- Handling
-

Bad Points
- Crap A-pillar, too thick
- Cruise Control
- Engine/ gearbox
- Crap ergonomics
- Cheap feel interior
- Looks

I had a poverty Omega and not being biased but my old 99 VCT Fairlane drives better and seems to have more power when overtaking,more comfort for sitting and handled a bit better. Thats a car thats almost 10 years old compared to near new with 16k on the clock. The cruise contol on the base car omegas is almost dangerous when driving in hilly country as the thing keeps kickin' back gears cause the engine doesn't have the torque to get the VE up hills : , and when decending hills the car builds up speed with cruise on. I had it set for 105km/h and by the bottom of the hill I was doing 130km/h :togo: , my old lane always stays around what it's set on. Obviously the V8 and maybe the 195kw version would do better but poverty pack is quite lame.

I'm Quite keen to grab a FG when it comes out for a comparo, but I'm sure the engine/gearbox/cruise set-up will be quite superior.

When I went out looking for a replacement car I visited both Ford and Holden. The Ford sales reps acted like they couldn't give a hoot, but I did get to assess the Ghia. Things like the ABS plastic door trim, the poorly integrated centre controls, etc were a turn off for me. I assumed the power train would be reliable, but friends who owned Falcons gave me some tacit warnings. When I looked at the shape I saw 10 year old with cosmetics, when I look at the FG pictures I see the same, although they have taken some design cues from the VE to piggyback it's success.

Next stop was the Holden dealership where the reps were more upbeat and confident. They gave me a Berlina to try for the afternoon and I must say I didn't like the six after coming from the eight; the engine was noisy, the tranny jerky and the body roll excessive... it just didn't sit right for my liking... more like a Toyota. Not wanting to lose a sale they organised a V8 for me within a couple days to test and it behaved like an entirely different vehicle compared to the six.

So pretty soon I'll be on the hunt for yet another new car and I'll probably go into the Ford dealerships and once again listen to the cheaply dressed snots bagging out Holden instead of expousing the Falcon virtues. I'll go to Holden where they will give a cup of tea and biscuits while I play vrrrm vrrrms behind the wheel and the rep will ring me a day later to say he is in the area with the boss' new model and would I like to take it for a spin. Then I'll go to Toyota to look at a sensible car with absolutely no character, no raw edges, no risk of the tranny exploding and I'll last about five minutes before that peculiar madness of being trapped in a nerd's nest besets me.

I think I might just have a midlife crisis and buy a Porsche this time. But that LS3 does look inviting.

[nutter_x]

If I hear one more person say "Holden is developing cylinder deactivation" again I'm gonna spew.

We've got VE's at work. If you activate engineering mode there is an option to turn it on...but it is locked out.

And the current V8's in Holden's are yankee built motors...and over in yonder America, these motors have the cylinder deactivation enabled. Not on every car, but most. And going off most reports from the US of A, the fuel savings are negligible, but it does make the car have an interesting and highly refined shudder when on.

All this developing must be hard for them...one or two lines of ECU code and off we go...

As for the six cylinder Commodores, well, when a car can't even stop itself from rolling forwards in a parking spot when in reverse, I'm not interested. And that problems plagues the bog standard 6 and the "High Feature" 6. The biggest feature you notice is the ridiculous fuel consumption...:

[LeadFoot81]

Maybe you could try another Ford dealership? And screw the tea and biscuits, buy the best car, not the car from the best salesperson...

Originally Posted by Wally

So pretty soon I'll be on the hunt for yet another new car and I'll probably go into the Ford dealerships and once again listen to the cheaply dressed snots bagging out Holden instead of expousing the Falcon virtues. I'll go to Holden where they will give a cup of tea and biscuits while I play vrrrm vrrrms behind the wheel and the rep will ring me a day later to say he is in the area with the boss' new model and would I like to take it for a spin. Then I'll go to Toyota to look at a sensible car with absolutely no character, no raw edges, no risk of the tranny exploding and I'll last about five minutes before that peculiar madness of being trapped in a nerd's nest besets me.

I think I might just have a midlife crisis and buy a Porsche this time. But that LS3 does look inviting.

[Fordmuscle1965]

Originally Posted by nutter_x

As for the six cylinder Commodores, well, when a car can't even stop itself from rolling forwards in a parking spot when in reverse, I'm not interested. And that problems plagues the bog standard 6 and the "High Feature" 6. ...:

Yeah. thats another thing I noticed as well, when parking on a slope the car would be in reverse but rolled forward......... :

[Wally]

Best car is such a subjective thing. But I'll look at the Falcon and if it's got a decent V8, a decent interior/seating I'll seriously consider it. Fuel consumption will need to be around what I'm getting now ~12/100

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by Wally

When I went out looking for a replacement car I visited both Ford and Holden. The Ford sales reps acted like they couldn't give a hoot, but I did get to assess the Ghia. Things like the ABS plastic door trim, the poorly integrated centre controls, etc were a turn off for me. I assumed the power train would be reliable, but friends who owned Falcons gave me some tacit warnings. When I looked at the shape I saw 10 year old with cosmetics, when I look at the FG pictures I see the same, although they have taken some design cues from the VE to piggyback it's success.

Next stop was the Holden dealership where the reps were more upbeat and confident. They gave me a Berlina to try for the afternoon and I must say I didn't like the six after coming from the eight; the engine was noisy, the tranny jerky and the body roll excessive... it just didn't sit right for my liking... more like a Toyota. Not wanting to lose a sale they organised a V8 for me within a couple days to test and it behaved like an entirely different vehicle compared to the six.

So pretty soon I'll be on the hunt for yet another new car and I'll probably go into the Ford dealerships and once again listen to the cheaply dressed snots bagging out Holden instead of expousing the Falcon virtues. I'll go to Holden where they will give a cup of tea and biscuits while I play vrrrm vrrrms behind the wheel and the rep will ring me a day later to say he is in the area with the boss' new model and would I like to take it for a spin. Then I'll go to Toyota to look at a sensible car with absolutely no character, no raw edges, no risk of the tranny exploding and I'll last about five minutes before that peculiar madness of being trapped in a nerd's nest besets me.

I think I might just have a midlife crisis and buy a Porsche this time. But that LS3 does look inviting.

I hear you brother, I hear you. The GT3 or the GTR Datsun, boy I wish I had more money to finance my mid life crisis.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by Wally

When I looked at the shape I saw 10 year old with cosmetics, when I look at the FG pictures I see the same, although they have taken some design cues from the VE to piggyback it's success.

Man I hate it when people say this. The FG styling would have been done way before the VE was released. The stylling is similar (although I dont think it is) because that is the current general style being used on large cars. They all use design cues from all over the place not just the imediate competition.

And take a closer look at the FG roof line and glasshouse Wally and then tell me the shape is still the same. I will grant you that some of the finer styling cues are similar (ie frontal treatment, taillights etc) and that has been well criticised on these forums. But Ford keep saying it was a design evolution where as the VE was more of a design revolution over the VZ.

I also say try another Ford dealership. The one you went to sounds like they employ a bunch of knob jockies. No wonder they lost your business.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by BadMac

I hear you brother, I hear you. The GT3 or the GTR Datsun, boy I wish I had more money to finance my mid life crisis.

The wife's car is due to be rotated and I think she's interested in one of these , but I really don't want a his 'n hers situation, so it might have to be one of these for me (both girly cars, but I 'm past caring what people think).

[GTP290]

Geez, Im pretty happy I posted a new thread and had 50 responses, thats a PB for me ehehe.

[DeansXR8]

Originally Posted by Deadman

Until Ford develop a marketing department, they can't expect the FG to outsell the VE, no matter how superior it is.

Exactly, holden market their gear very well, they start when the kids are young and it seems to still stick years later. They're very good at putting the holden brand into peoples heads.
they, as everyone is sorta getting at probably not all that concerned.

[red_hotxr6]

Originally Posted by MOTIV8

They are only upping the ante in anticipation of the FG going on sale within the next two weeks....... although one does wonder what type of advertising campaign FORD will engage when they actually go on sale and would be looking forward to at least one from FPV as well!!!!!

Guess we willl just have to wait and see

Ford doesnt have to hype up its add to compete with Holden,s desperate ploy at advertising, the FG speaks for itself. It will out sell Holden, and guess what, the Fg doesnt change color or shape, like Holden depicts in there add,s.hmmmm... :

[DanielXR8]

I thought the same as you, that they were a sign of a company struggling. I don't think it is necessarily because of the FG Falcon either, although I am sure that was considered with the timing of the new ads. The market is changing and the Holden brand (like Ford) is on the nose with a lot of potential customers.

If the FG doesn't sell well, expect a similar effort from Ford. None of the other cars in the Ford catalogue, are exactly best sellers and the excuses for Mondeo are wearing thin.

Dan

[hypnodoc]

Originally Posted by Fordmuscle1965

I've just had an VE for 8 days over in tassie.

Good Points
- Handling
-

Bad Points
- Crap A-pillar, too thick
- Cruise Control
- Engine/ gearbox
- Crap ergonomics
- Cheap feel interior
- Looks

I had a poverty Omega and not being biased but my old 99 VCT Fairlane drives better and seems to have more power when overtaking,more comfort for sitting and handled a bit better. Thats a car thats almost 10 years old compared to near new with 16k on the clock. The cruise contol on the base car omegas is almost dangerous when driving in hilly country as the thing keeps kickin' back gears cause the engine doesn't have the torque to get the VE up hills : , and when decending hills the car builds up speed with cruise on. I had it set for 105km/h and by the bottom of the hill I was doing 130km/h :togo: , my old lane always stays around what it's set on. Obviously the V8 and maybe the 195kw version would do better but poverty pack is quite lame.

I'm Quite keen to grab a FG when it comes out for a comparo, but I'm sure the engine/gearbox/cruise set-up will be quite superior.

Agree 100%. I had an Avis SV6 for 10 days and drove from Melb to Lockhart so it got a good open road run, the only thing you got wrong was handling. The car had good straight line stability but cornering left a bit to be desired

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wally

When I went out looking for a replacement car I visited both Ford and Holden. The Ford sales reps acted like they couldn't give a hoot, but I did get to assess the Ghia. Things like the ABS plastic door trim, the poorly integrated centre controls, etc were a turn off for me. I assumed the power train would be reliable, but friends who owned Falcons gave me some tacit warnings. When I looked at the shape I saw 10 year old with cosmetics, when I look at the FG pictures I see the same, although they have taken some design cues from the VE to piggyback it's success.

And the excessive use of ABS plastic in the Holden was a turn on I suppose?
As for the shape of both the VE and FG, I think you'll find even the Holden die-hards were saying the VE looked like the BA; so who is copying who?
As an engineer I thought you would have understood the costs of tooling to make moulds, panels etc. I also put it to you that you haven't in fact seen an FG, as they are not available right now, so your assertion of the carry over parts is fatally flawed. BTW, define "Poorly integrated controls" for us will you, but just for fun do it whilst cross referencing the VE.

Originally Posted by Wally

Next stop was the Holden dealership where the reps were more upbeat and confident. They gave me a Berlina to try for the afternoon and I must say I didn't like the six after coming from the eight; the engine was noisy, the tranny jerky and the body roll excessive... it just didn't sit right for my liking... more like a Toyota. Not wanting to lose a sale they organised a V8 for me within a couple days to test and it behaved like an entirely different vehicle compared to the six.

So pretty soon I'll be on the hunt for yet another new car and I'll probably go into the Ford dealerships and once again listen to the cheaply dressed snots bagging out Holden instead of expousing the Falcon virtues.

So firstly your criticism of the Berlina tries to set up your impartiality, when really you have no interest in the Berlina nor any base model, you are really trying to <b>espouse</b> the virtues of a more upmarket commodore like a HSV opposed to an FG. Nice. As for ford reps allegedly being critical of Holden then what, unlike the captiva ads that directly compare to the public arena that they are better? Or perhaps it's the latest round of ads that are misrepresentative of the facts when they declare that "Holden go better". Who's pulling whose Larriet now?

Originally Posted by Wally

I'll go to Holden where they will give a cup of tea and biscuits while I play vrrrm vrrrms behind the wheel and the rep will ring me a day later to say he is in the area with the boss' new model and would I like to take it for a spin. Then I'll go to Toyota to look at a sensible car with absolutely no character, no raw edges, no risk of the tranny exploding and I'll last about five minutes before that peculiar madness of being trapped in a nerd's nest besets me.

I think I might just have a midlife crisis and buy a Porsche this time. But that LS3 does look inviting.

If tea and biscuits is all you care about then you should get a nice cardigan on and but a toyota. Then think about placing a sun hat on the parcel shelf and drive methodically 10kmh below the speed limit whilst sitting in the fast lane. As for transmissions that explode, look no further than the "Go better" tea and biscuits mob who have the monopoly on rubbish transmissions that go bang in the night whilst irrigating your driveway with ATF. Please don't buy a ford though, as I have seen many stickers adorning rear windows as to why God invented Holden, and in your case I think it applies.

[Wally]

My you are quite the Sherlock Holmes with a twist of consumer behaviour 101 thrown in aren't you. If you read carefully what I have written. I haven't dumped on the new Falcon at all. You are correct in plumbing the depths of my Id to realise that I haven't seen an FG , but once again I haven't suggested I had.

I seem to recall there were threads started that bordered on hysteria when the VE was a discussion point here. Avid Ford fans pointed out what a dud the VE was and would be; how GM would sink like a stone, how the flared guards were bad, how the squared off look was bad, how the centre console was bad, etc, etc.


Well from the release pics and the Ford site guess what... it has had the turret redesigned to be wider and less beatle like, it has flared guards, it backend looks like a take from an older model Liberty, the centre console is like a Holden/Aurion, the seating is apparantly pretty average, but all in all Joe public will see a recognisable Falcon with what appears to be partial application of Commodore bits 'n bobs. And because of that it might even outsell Holden... who knows.

I don't apologise for telling a yarn. You can take it or leave it. I have probably owned more Fords than you. I took my licence at age 17 in GTHO which must mean at least 2 brownie points, I've drove around in an XR 289, an XB 302, an Escort an XF S pak, a Taurus. I'm currently driving a VE 6.0 and I like it.......I like it a lot. I haven't blown a gearbox yet and don't expect to, but if it happens I'll get them to put another one in, so what. My brother blew his ubeaut German transmission in the BF or whatever it is he owns and no one made a fuss even though he is like you in the blind faith department and had spent inordinate hours prior bagging the 6L80E in my sedan.

It's no use trying to use me as an excuse to bag Holden and curry favour with Ford. Ford doesn't really care about you, they're a multinational like GMC with very cunning Americans running the show. There won't be any factory discount for you being such an avid fan.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wally

My you are quite the Sherlock Holmes with a twist of consumer behaviour 101 thrown in aren't you. If you read carefully what I have written. I haven't dumped on the new Falcon at all.

So "When I looked at the shape I saw 10 year old with cosmetics, when I look at the FG pictures I see the same, although they have taken some design cues from the VE to piggyback it's success" is a compliment. How astute and poignant yet intellectual, in a minimalist sort of way.

Originally Posted by Wally

You are correct in plumbing the depths of my Id to realise that I haven't seen an FG , but once again I haven't suggested I had.

I seem to recall there were threads started that bordered on hysteria when the VE was a discussion point here. Avid Ford fans pointed out what a dud the VE was and would be; how GM would sink like a stone, how the flared guards were bad, how the squared off look was bad, how the centre console was bad, etc, etc.

Somehow the falcons' fortunes were a great source of entertainment amongst the holden myopia mob, yet any threat from ford is deemed dismissable even without seeing it. That's the worst kind of bias, as many who made reference to the VE had actually driven it before forming an opinion. Another thing, GM hasn't exactly traded out of their hundreds of billions of dollars in debt; and choosing to replace their euro designed and built cars with Korean ones isn't proving to be the sales success they thought it would be globally. Ford fans in this case had a point and were backed up by sales data. As such, the VE hasn't sold as expected and has been inhibited by its extra mass and poor fuel consumption in an environment of increased oil prices. For the LS1 owners, this is a double whammy as they have excessive engine oil consumption too.
Irregardless, this kind of defensive would be more suited to a forum such as LS1.

Originally Posted by Wally

Well from the release pics and the Ford site guess what... it has had the turret redesigned to be wider and less beatle like, it has flared guards, it backend looks like a take from an older model Liberty, the centre console is like a Holden/Aurion, the seating is apparantly pretty average, but all in all Joe public will see a recognisable Falcon with what appears to be partial application of Commodore bits 'n bobs. And because of that it might even outsell Holden... who knows.

Less beatle like? What, you mean less of a mop top like Ringo Starr or less like a VW Beetle?
As for flared guards, they aren't as pronounced on the ford and no, I don't believe Holden owns the patent on any kind of flaring of the wheelarch. Actually, from EA onwards ford had flared wheelarches and Holden had none in the VN so what does that tell you?
The centre console in the FG is actually similar to that in the AU as well as BA so who copied whom? BTW, if you want me to get into a war with facts on what journo's who have exhibited nothing but Holden bias over the years (such as filling their garages with Holdens) think of the FG and how it has it over the Holden then just ask. I don't think you'll find any Holden bits on the ford at all. Holden are market followers, not innovators.

Originally Posted by Wally

I don't apologise for telling a yarn. You can take it or leave it. I have probably owned more Fords than you. I took my licence at age 17 in GTHO which must mean at least 2 brownie points, I've drove around in an XR 289, an XB 302, an Escort an XF S pak, a Taurus. I'm currently driving a VE 6.0 and I like it.......I like it a lot. I haven't blown a gearbox yet and don't expect to, but if it happens I'll get them to put another one in, so what. My brother blew his ubeaut German transmission in the BF or whatever it is he owns and no one made a fuss even though he is like you in the blind faith department and had spent inordinate hours prior bagging the 6L80E in my sedan.

Doubt it, I was in the limo business with my father for a couple of years and bought numerous fords, one holden caprice (ideal boat anchor, but it would rust and leave an LS1 oil slick). The 4 speed that Holden use is notorious for blowing rear seals and dumping transmission fluid everywhere, and they cook when in gear with the AC on. I'd submit that your friends ZF box going was probably a rare occurrence, as I have a couple of them now and they are flawless. Most people on this forum with the same box will tell you the same.

Originally Posted by Wally

It's no use trying to use me as an excuse to bag Holden and curry favour with Ford. Ford doesn't really care about you, they're a multinational like GMC with very cunning Americans running the show. There won't be any factory discount for you being such an avid fan.

Actually, Ford do care about me for the fact that we used to buy several cars at a time from them. In GMH's case, their parent company makes about 50% of the worlds porn so what does that say about their ethics?
Finally, Ford have appointed Alan Mulally, the man responsible for turning US giant Boeing around; I think they'll be number 1 again, especially when some of their cars are topping consumer satisfaction surveys.

[Wally]

Seems to me you are posting with emotion rather than fact. I'm sure most of the posters here haven't seen an FG either, but it doesn't stop many of them promoting it or showing dissapointment. I wouldn't mind betting some have even bought from the brochure too. And good on them, I'm not a self appointed arbitirator on what's good for the individual.

I was an LS1 owner and I never had an ounce of problems with the engine, tranny or car for that matter. So when you make broad sweeping statements it should be backed up with statistical data. Subscribing to the one bad apple spoiling the whole barrel is not valid.

If the VE is so similar to the BF why all the fuss and bother?

If your logic says " So firstly your criticism of the Berlina tries to set up your impartiality, when really you have no interest in the Berlina nor any base model, you are really trying to <b>espouse</b> the virtues of a more upmarket commodore like a HSV opposed to an FG."., then you will have no problem when I say I really, truelly, honest injun don't give a rats about branding. I'm so ambivalent I'm prepared to concede the V8 Holden is much better than the six, in my opinion....and that's all it is; an opinion based on nothing more than my observations. But seeing as you obviously think that the whole model lineup should bespeak of the individual model, then you won't mind me comparing the base poverty pak FG to the top of the range VE?

In repsonse to your probing, but I suspect rhetoriacl query "from EA onwards ford had flared wheelarches and Holden had none in the VN so what does that tell you?", it tells me that the EA had flared guards and the VN didn't, but it obviously means something to you........the post EAs were a retrograde step? I don't think the pronounced guards of the VE are really that much a cousin to the EA though... or are they? If so I repeat my observation on the tirade of posts when the VE was released decrying said guards.