Petrol V Diesel

[PoweredByCNG]

Diesel should be promoted much more than it is at the moment. If the Govt is keen on lowering greenhouse gas emissions from cars than diesel and LPG are excellent short-term alternatives. Regarding diesel, 30% less fuel burnt means considerably lower CO2 emissions, even if diesel has a higher carbon count per unit than petrol. With DPFs and oxidising catalytic converters available for diesel engines, the only problematic emissions product from a diesel engine would be NOx. LPG engines benefit from low particulate emissions (regardless of tuning) and low CO/HC/NOx when a three-way catalytic converter is installed, but only if the engine is precisely tuned to run at between the Lambda values or 0.95 and 0.99 under ALL conditions.

Regards,
Dave

[Citric GT]

I can only comment on the 4WDs (Landcruisers) that Ive driven in petrol & diesel form. All have been manual. I didn't take much notice of the fuel consumption, but from a driving perspective the diesel was just as good to drive. I reckon in automatic form the diesel would have been the best out of the two easily.

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by GK5766

LPG i dont even use that for the BBQ's so it will never be seen in my cars.

Why? It's still cheaper to run a LPG car compared to petrol or diesel cars.
My figures are based on the 4.0L I6 in the Falcon on LPG compared to a 2.0L HDi engine in the 307. The Falcon is still 3c/km cheaper even though the engine capacity is twice the size and LPG doesn't burn as well as other fuels.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

...and LPG doesn't burn as well as other fuels.

I don't know where you got that from.

LPG is a cleaner burning fuel than petrol, and it burns more completely too because of its higher hydrogen to carbon ratio. An LPG system is completely sealed, so there are no evaporative emissions.

LPG is less dense energy-wise compared to petrol though, that's why you generally burn more, although SVI and LI systems have minimised and in some cases eliminated the difference.

Regards,
Dave

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Geez, I don't think I'll ever holiday on the Sunshine Coast. $141.90/litre?!?

$7750 to fill my car! :

Why do you think I was cranky !!!! $1.41.9 cpl . It's safe to holiday now, although it is raining at the moment

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Diesel should be promoted much more than it is at the moment. If the Govt is keen on lowering greenhouse gas emissions from cars than diesel and LPG are excellent short-term alternatives. Regarding diesel, 30% less fuel burnt means considerably lower CO2 emissions, even if diesel has a higher carbon count per unit than petrol. With DPFs and oxidising catalytic converters available for diesel engines, the only problematic emissions product from a diesel engine would be NOx. LPG engines benefit from low particulate emissions (regardless of tuning) and low CO/HC/NOx when a three-way catalytic converter is installed, but only if the engine is precisely tuned to run at between the Lambda values or 0.95 and 0.99 under ALL conditions.

Regards,
Dave

Don't forget that diesel has around 14% more carbon per litre than petrol does as it has more carbon atoms.

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

I don't know where you got that from.

I didn't really make myself clear with what I was trying to say there, oops.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

it has a lower energy density than either petrol or diesel, so the equivalent fuel consumption is higher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

It burns cleaner, but doesn't produce as much energy.

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Don't forget that diesel has around 14% more carbon per litre than petrol does as it has more carbon atoms.

That's why they are fitting them with Diesel Particulate Filters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpf

As an example, with our 307, I wiped my finger around the inside of the exhaust pipe after 17,000kms and it came out clean.

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by aquahead2001

Not having a go here but what VW model are you talking about?
.

Ummm I dont get that statement but its a 2008 touareg.

Heavier than the territory, 10.3 using the same driving style as i did in the the territory which was 23/100

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by Laminge

Ummm I dont get that statement but its a 2008 touareg.

Heavier than the territory, 10.3 using the same driving style as i did in the the territory which was 23/100

You didn't get sucked in by that ad did you Minge? :

PS. Is your avatar a snippet from Sourbastard's holiday video?

[Abacus]

Go Auto looked into the diesel pricing situation a couple of months ago. These articles make interesting reading:

Diesel Dilemma

Diesel Doubts Continue

They had this to say about the payback period for the price premiums charged by manufacturers for diesel engines:

Originally Posted by GoAuto

Based on the current wholesale price disparity between petrol and diesel of 23 cents per litre and an average annual mileage of 20,000km, it will take BMW 320d drivers more than eight years to pay off their car’s $3100 higher purchase price over the equivalent 320i, while the Hyundai i30 diesel’s $3500 price premium over its petrol sibling will take more than 11 years to recoup.

Calculated on a $4000 price premium over the equivalent petrol version and an ADR81/01 average fuel consumption estimate of 8.5 litres per 100km (compared with 10.8L/100km for the petrol), it will take buyers of the forthcoming Commodore diesel more than 12 years to pay off their diesel investment. Twelve years!

They like LPG though, and they appear to have done a bit of work have done to substantiate their claims.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Why do you think I was cranky !!!! $1.41.9 cpl . It's safe to holiday now, although it is raining at the moment

Geez, if it's not the petrol prices, it's the dishonesty in the name! Is the Sun at least out when it's raining?

[Need_a_V8]

Originally Posted by burnz

yes it's wrong as diesel is a byproduct just like grease.

lol at what point does petrol then become a by-product of diesel?

7 out of every 10 vehicles sold in India, run on diesel. Over the last fiscal year, India's diesel consumption went up by 10% which is the equivalent of an entire YEAR's worth of diesel from 3 Australian refineries.

China's INCREASE alone in diesel consumption is equivalent to an entire years worth of Australia's production of diesel.

India and China cannot sustain their own use, they don't have the resources, so they are importing more and more diesel. It all comes down to supply and demand.

With countries like India having 7/10 new vehicles run on diesel, how long is it before both India AND China are using MORE diesel than petrol? When that time comes, petrol will effectively become a by-product of diesel. As India and China grow, diesel is going to become increasingly expensive, and the gap between petrol and diesel in price is only going to increase.

[Hunter]

You know the good thing about those developing countries using diesel is that they probably don't have the regulations etc re pollution sooooo it will probably act as a population control mechanism eventually... maybe that's a bad thing, at least it is for people who live there!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Need_a_V8

lol at what point does petrol then become a by-product of diesel?

7 out of every 10 vehicles sold in India, run on diesel. Over the last fiscal year, India's diesel consumption went up by 10% which is the equivalent of an entire YEAR's worth of diesel from 3 Australian refineries.

China's INCREASE alone in diesel consumption is equivalent to an entire years worth of Australia's production of diesel.

India and China cannot sustain their own use, they don't have the resources, so they are importing more and more diesel. It all comes down to supply and demand.

With countries like India having 7/10 new vehicles run on diesel, how long is it before both India AND China are using MORE diesel than petrol? When that time comes, petrol will effectively become a by-product of diesel. As India and China grow, diesel is going to become increasingly expensive, and the gap between petrol and diesel in price is only going to increase.

The other bad thing is that the fuel is subsidised by the government over in India and China. In India Diesel is 34 rupies/L (1AUD = about 40 rupies). China is about the same.

Mind you the wages are much lower then Oz as well.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

That's why they are fitting them with Diesel Particulate Filters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpf

As an example, with our 307, I wiped my finger around the inside of the exhaust pipe after 17,000kms and it came out clean.

Where do you think the Carbon Dioxide comes from?

[Falcon Coupe]

Some research shows mixed results. The below favour's diesel, how much credibitlity the source has i do not know.

http://www.stealthtdi.com/Emissions.html


Summary

Diesel cars are better than petrol cars with reference to carbon dioxide, the global warming gas.

Diesel cars are better than petrol cars with reference to carbon monoxide, a poison.

Diesel cars are better than petrol cars with reference to hydrocarbons which cause cancer.

Diesel cars are similar to petrol cars with reference to nitrous oxides, which cause smog.

Diesel cars are worse than petrol cars with reference to particulates, which have unproved health impact

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

PS. Is your avatar a snippet from Sourbastard's holiday video?

I think that comment will keep me laughing for a week!!!

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Where do you think the Carbon Dioxide comes from?

What consumes carbon dioxide? Plants.
What is the biggest producer of CO2? The ocean.

The 307 emits 148 grams of CO2 per kilometer.
http://www.peugeot.com.au/PEUGEOT/AU...icing_spec.asp 307 Touring HDI 6spd manual

Anybody know what the figures are for the Prius? I couldn't find it on the Toyota website.
I couldn't see it on the specs for the Falcon either.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Diesel cars are worse than petrol cars with reference to particulates, which have unproved health impact

Tier 3 Diesels should emit very little particulates, hence why we now have low sulpher diesel.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Tier 3 Diesels should emit very little particulates, hence why we now have low sulpher diesel.

All internal combustion engines will produce particulate emissions, even if it's a tiny quantity. With diesel particulate filters becoming standard equipment, the disadvantage that diesel engines had previously with high particulate emissions is almost eliminated.

@xbgs351: That's why I stated...

...even if diesel has a higher carbon count per unit than petrol.

.

@sgt_doofey: Again, you're repeating what I said...

LPG is less dense energy-wise compared to petrol though...

Regards,
Dave

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

@sgt_doofey: Again, you're repeating what I said...

I know. I was clarifying what I tried to say originally.

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

I didn't really make myself clear with what I was trying to say there, oops.

[GK351]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

Why? It's still cheaper to run a LPG car compared to petrol or diesel cars.
My figures are based on the 4.0L I6 in the Falcon on LPG compared to a 2.0L HDi engine in the 307. The Falcon is still 3c/km cheaper even though the engine capacity is twice the size and LPG doesn't burn as well as other fuels.

Not in my case, the diesel VW is pretty cheap to run. Cheaper than LPG
About my BBQ LPG comment i prefer good old fashioned charcoal. :

My father in law may have some influence on me about LPG, he is a cabbie,
the last AU and the current BF taxi he is driveing has never been on gas.
not worth the $2400+ install fee and the constant dramas LPG will give him day in day out. They dont get the NSW LPG conversion grant either. Keep in mind he changes the cab evey 5-6 years also, and he aint the only one.

I drove a hiace van on lpg whilst doing my apprenticship some 10 years ago and the amount of times i had to take it in to the workshop was not funny.
So stick the gas.

[redranga]

You need to compare apples with apples when comparing the two fuels. I drive a 4wd diesel ute and use 9L per 100 kms around town. It weighs 2000kgs.

An AU falcon is 1400kgs. Add a trailer and bring the total weight up to 2000kgs and which one will be cheaper to run?

Or

Have a look at the fuel consumption of any v6 jap 4wd ute. The same one as mine with a petrol v6 uses 16 or 17L per 100kms around town.

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by GK5766

Not in my case, the diesel VW is pretty cheap to run. Cheaper than LPG

Really? What motor is in the VW? Is it the 1.6L or the 2.0L(1.9L?) diesel?
My figures I quoted are based on a spreadsheet I've been keeping for about the last two years comparing the EL and the 307. In the beginning, they were about the same cost per kilometre, but recently with the way diesel pricing has gone, the EL comes out ahead by about a full 3c/L. We average about 6.3L/100kms in the 307 and I get roughly high 12 to low 13L/100kms from the EL.

As for the LPG, I've been running it in the EL now for 9 years and approx 190,000kms. I've had a couple of times where it backfired on me, but I just replaced the leads and it's been fine. Never had any real work done on the system apart from adjusting it and replacing a couple of the connectors to the converter. Even the original hoses were only replaced a couple of years ago. It has developed a bit of a problem in the summer with over-fueling, but I think that is caused by an inefficient radiator which causes the car to heat up and possible blockages in the cooling system. In winter it's fine due to the cooler weather, but I'll be replacing the radiator soon as it has been suggested to me by a mechanic that it's probably one third blocked.

Having said all that, it's probably a different kettle of fish with a taxi considering the amount of time they spend driving.

I should also point out that I live out in the country and that all of the driving I do in the EL is highway driving, so that probably tips the balance in it's favour. The wife uses the 307 to go to work which is only 5 minutes down the road, so it cops the short trips during the week.

[GK351]

@ sgt doofey,
Its a 2.0L Diesel with the DSG 6 speed. The last trip we did up the mountains and back 300+k's i averaged 4.6L per 100km, about 70km of that was around the towns stopping starting. VW rate it at 5.7L per 100km combined hwy, city.
when my wife drives it around the suberbs/city she gets around 6.5L 100km

All im saying is if i took the AU falcon or the hilux 4x4 3.4L petrol, i would use in excess
of 13L per 100km in the falcon and around the 18L per 100km in the hilux, in other words more than double, almost triple the amount.

My opinion for everyday cars...Diesel wins over petrol.

[MoreHPformyXR6]

Originally Posted by Laminge

I wish people who have never owned a diesel car would keep their opinions in their y fronts ffs, some crap has been posted in here just to ensure they have their avatar in this thread, nothing else is of worth

Ive gone from around $120 a week in fuel in the territory to around $75 a week for the same ks in the vw.

But if you had the equivalent vw model (in petrol) it wouldnt be quite the disparity as compared with the terry now. Im so certain im willing to put $10 bucks on it... my bsb is 123 000 a/c 12435678 hehe
:

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by GK5766

The last trip we did up the mountains and back 300+k's i averaged 4.6L per 100km

Gotta love the way these diesels pull up those mountains. I love taking the 307 for a punt up through the Adelaide Hills. The wife doesn't like my driving through there though. "Too fast" "Slow down"

My opinion for everyday cars...Diesel wins over petrol.

Totally agree there. And with the introduction of the particulate filters, they are a lot more greener than petrol cars too. A lot of these diesels are making it quite high on to the Governments Green Vehicle Guide due to how little they emit.

[Abacus]

Lots of guys comparing apples and oranges in this thread.

VW Golf diesels, Peugeot 307 diesels, Mazda 3 diesels, etc. They are all good little cars. That's good little cars. If they weren't incredibly economical there would be something very wrong.

The real test for diesel as a viable substitute will be when the Commodore and Falcon diesels are released.

I have no doubt they will be more economical than the petrol equivalents, but I doubt they will be economical enough to offset the additional purchase price for most would-be purchasers. There is no way I can see them being a sensible alternative to LPG on a Total Cost of Ownership basis.

People might buy the diesels for the torque and driveability characteristics, but not for sound financial reasons.

Time will tell.

[mik]

it would be interesting to do a comparo diesel versus petrol, same weight and gearing etc ,etc servicing costs, personally i dont like small diesels ,apart from the noise diesels make, the charecteristics of the engine are an aquired taste i reckon , do we have any Diesel mechanics on here? big diesels are prone too electrolysis problems they run additives in the coolant to combat this, my own experience with this was even with the additives the bores became porouse and needed replacement (sleeves very costly), do these little diesels suffer from this problem? i reckon they would, if new block or sleeves is needed , this should be factored into servicing cost`s, engine braking is pretty cool though, probably saves a bit on brake wear if driven well.