**GM preparing for bankruptcy** - Page 2

VeloXR6 · 09-04-2009, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Very well pointed out, if Holden was to shut down, it is basically a death sentence for the Rudd government.

One could only wish....

oh I cant wait for all those good ol boys on the hill waving their Hyundai or Kia flags against our Ford flags ..... oh happy days...

Seriously though I think the members of these forums and the holden equivilant might be the future of the V8 supercar series when the inevitable happens..... we all know the demise of the production V8 is coming... one day... thank god the current models will serve well into the future.

xr6turboford · 09-04-2009, 09:32 AM

IF Holden do close down WHEELS wont have anything to write about.
But having said that the amount of advertising Holden do in that mag plus other hand outs WHEELS will go broke as well. 1 can only hope.

3vXT · 09-04-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyber

I'm so glad Ford seem to be helping themselves much better than it's rivals. The idea of Holden going under or being badly shaken up seems good to me on a rivalry level, but of course the cars we drive are this good due to that direct competition, so it would be terrible as has been said.

But indeed, I sigh a sigh of relief that Ford seem 'okay'.

Do people really put their loyalty to a product ahead of job losses? Next to people losing their jobs does it really matter whether its holden or ford or toyota?
If hundreds or thousands of people are going to be unemployed i'm less worried about a potential drop in awesomeness of the next model and more worried about how those people are going to feed their families, pay for their homes and other stuff.

Are you that in love with ford and their products that you don't consider the impact it will have on the workers of other companies?

4Vman · 09-04-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken2903

Do people really put their loyalty to a product ahead of job losses? Next to people losing their jobs does it really matter whether its holden or ford or toyota?
If hundreds or thousands of people are going to be unemployed i'm less worried about a potential drop in awesomeness of the next model and more worried about how those people are going to feed their families, pay for their homes and other stuff.

Are you that in love with ford and their products that you don't consider the impact it will have on the workers of other companies?

I don't think consumers should (or are) concern(ed) themselves with the financial position of the company that manufactures the goods they are looking to buy, at the end of the day consumers will and should choose the product that best suits them.
I wouldn't swap from my preferred brand to its competitor just to keep them alive that's for sure, and Ford can ill afford for consumers to show any empathy to GM/Holden..

3vXT · 09-04-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I don't think consumers should (or are) concern(ed) themselves with the financial position of the company that manufactures the goods they are looking to buy, at the end of the day consumers will and should choose the product that best suits them.
I wouldn't swap from my preferred brand to its competitor just to keep them alive that's for sure, and Ford can ill afford for consumers to show any empathy to GM/Holden..

No, i don't mean people should be buying cars they don't like just too keep the company alive, I don't even agree with the government buy outs. I just hate that some people only think of the impact it will have on their particular brand of car. Some things are more important than that.

4Vman · 09-04-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken2903

No, i don't mean people should be buying cars they don't like just too keep the company alive, I don't even agree with the government buy outs. I just hate that some people only think of the impact it will have on their particular brand of car. Some things are more important than that.

Yeah totally agree there, that's why car companies are now trying to secure exclusive supply arrangements for suppliers of components to shield them from their competitors financial woes...
The problem in Australia is there are allot of suppliers common to both Ford and holden because our market just isn't big enough to sustain efficiencies for multiple suppliers of many components..

SB076 · 09-04-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I wish someone could prove that theory, Ford and Holden do not share as many suppliers as you think, in fact, if Holden were to be closed down I really don't think it would affect Ford as much as we think....HOWEVER, the job losses would be terrible and it is something that really needs to be avoided if possible.

I cant prove that theory, but from my limited knowledge there are a lot of tier 2 and tier 3 suppliers that supply both - I am not sure with plastics as someone else said but the seating for both is from Futuris. Then you have steel suppliers etc that supply both. Not sure about companies like Bosch and PBR. But there are a lot of suppliers that most know very little about FAPM could provide more info.

Scott · 09-04-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I don't think consumers should concern themselves with the financial position of the company that manufactures the goods they are looking to buy, at the end of the day consumers will and should choose the product that best suits them.

Consumers should absolutely concern themselves with the financial position of the company they are about to invest tens of thousands of dollars into as well as entering into a 3-7yr contract with.

I have seen several examples where people have been burnt by failed auto makers. A recent/ish one was a workmate who bought himself a beautiful little MG ZT190 - MG Rover failed and soon after so did his fuel pump..... no warranty and somehow it ended up costing him close to $4500.00 - for a fuel pump!!!

There is a lot of money at stake for "ma & pa" and they should rightly do what they can to ensure their long term contract will be honored in the spirit under which it commenced.

ChemicalHorizon · 09-04-2009, 01:07 PM

Its my understanding that when an auto maker leaves the australian market they are obliged under law to provide servicing and parts for for x years after.

Not sure if this applys to bankrupt companies tho :S

ranger58 · 09-04-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChemicalHorizon

Its my understanding that when an auto maker leaves the australian market they are obliged under law to provide servicing and parts for for x years after.

Not sure if this applys to bankrupt companies tho :S

Heres the problem Holden is a subsidiary of GM, so you can be sure that should GM file chapter 11 and fail to find a buyer for Holden their lawyers will be out in force to prove legally why they are not responsible for warranties.

GM does seem to be more viable then its American parent company but that is no guarantee GM will keep them, in fact the American oversight comities are now quite vocal on insisting that the money handed out by the US government be used to sure up US jobs and GM should offload Non-US subsidiarys.

Not a good time for any Australian Auto company as similar attitudes are starting to prevail in other companies like Ford and Toyota.

robertjp · 09-04-2009, 03:11 PM

Has anyone heard or seen a comment by Jac Nassar, does anyone know what he is doing now. His perspective on the current environment and possible moves would certainly be intersting reading.

GM have been on the decline for years in US, just no-one seemed to recognise this (ala Roger Smith) Thank goodness Alan Mulally came when he did, any later and FORD would be in similar trouble.

What's happening with SAAB, has a buyer been found?

Wally · 09-04-2009, 04:04 PM

I guess there's always other ways to get government money:

http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA...dustryid=48372

and more on topic:

Quote:

"The collapse of one of our competitors would have a severe impact on Ford and our transformation plan, because the domestic auto industry is highly interdependent," Ford Chief Executive Alan Mulally warned late last year in testimony before the U.S. Senate. "It would also have devastating ripple effects across the entire U.S. economy."

ChemicalHorizon · 09-04-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertjp

What's happening with SAAB, has a buyer been found?

I keep seeing SAAB adds all over the interblag and newspapers....thought they had already filed for some kind of protection? Could be dealers SAAB adds i spose.

mrbaxr6t · 09-04-2009, 06:58 PM

Hope our lives don't end now

in your face tool that drove past me today when i was towing an old ford screaming out the window "get a holden" the answer - "sorry they stopped selling them"

Also I was under the impression it is illegal to report US based company closures to the rest of the world, so I don't find it surprising we havn't heard squat.

ranger58 · 09-04-2009, 07:16 PM

Um hiding the closure of a company as big as GM would require the efforts of every magician in the world and even then you would need a diversion to distract market analysts.

Besides they ain't really closing just declaring section 11 (what ever that is) which is less then section 14 (no idea), so I think its actually big businesses way of saying "stuff you I ain't paying so what you going to do about it". Stupid American Laws for stupid peo.... Well enough about that

TERMINATOR X · 09-04-2009, 07:26 PM

None of this will happen. Although i would LOVE to see H@*$%^ cave in!

:

Pat McGroin · 09-04-2009, 08:16 PM

If every holden commodore going in the easternats this weekend chipped in $10 surely that would raise enough to bail out GM and then some...

:

gtfpv · 09-04-2009, 08:24 PM

this thread is shyte . i didnt know there was so many chiodren on this forum , everyone here is self interested and speaking shyte . i remember those attitudes in the quadrangle in year 10.

ranger58 · 09-04-2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat McGroin

If every holden commodore going in the easternats this weekend chipped in $10 surely that would raise enough to bail out GM and then some...

:

Um GM is $35 billion in debt, did not think Holden made over 12 billion comodore's.

GM will be fine anyway, worst case scenario the US Government will take a large stake in the company. Ford and GM are like the banks in the US, they can not afford to go out of Business or the whole US economy will go down the toilet. They may decide to sell off Holden, but I doubt it as even though Holden has made a loss in recent years its still been a strong business prospect.

The fallout from all this is eventually all the big manufacturer will have Standard models of cars, locally designed and possible produced cars will be the exception to the rule.

3vXT · 09-04-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

this thread is shyte . i didnt know there was so many chiodren on this forum , everyone here is self interested and speaking shyte . i remember those attitudes in the quadrangle in year 10.

I know you are, you said you are but whaaaat aammmmmmm iiiiiiii???

Pat McGroin · 10-04-2009, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranger58

Um GM is $35 billion in debt, did not think Holden made over 12 billion comodore's.

GM will be fine anyway, worst case scenario the US Government will take a large stake in the company. Ford and GM are like the banks in the US, they can not afford to go out of Business or the whole US economy will go down the toilet. They may decide to sell off Holden, but I doubt it as even though Holden has made a loss in recent years its still been a strong business prospect.

The fallout from all this is eventually all the big manufacturer will have Standard models of cars, locally designed and possible produced cars will be the exception to the rule.

Yeah mate i know, i was simply alluding to the fact that there is a shyte load of crummydores there every year!
Im sure your right though, holden will pull through in the end.

Ohio XB · 10-04-2009, 10:21 AM

I read a lot here that GM and Chrysler are preparing bankruptcy plans. That might be just covering their bases.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Yesterday on Mark Field's weekly web video to the employees he was sure to mention that Ford and GM depend on 80% the same suppliers. If GM's suppliers have to bite the bullet many of them will fold. With the two companies sharing 80% the same suppliers I think the impact on Ford is obvious.

Ford has also been loaning key suppliers money to help them through this time. I would imagine it is the ones that have the biggest impact on Ford's ability to build cars.

Steve

Bossxr8 · 10-04-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Does anyone know what suppliers Holden and Ford share?

Toyota and Ford share a few Victorian suppliers, but not too sure how many Holden share with Ford......

A few big ones. Bosch Australia, PBR, Walker exhausts. There would be quite a few of them.

Bossxr8 · 10-04-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertjp

Has anyone heard or seen a comment by Jac Nassar, does anyone know what he is doing now. His perspective on the current environment and possible moves would certainly be intersting reading.

GM have been on the decline for years in US, just no-one seemed to recognise this (ala Roger Smith) Thank goodness Alan Mulally came when he did, any later and FORD would be in similar trouble.

What's happening with SAAB, has a buyer been found?

He's a non executive director on the board of BHP Biliton.

Chopped · 10-04-2009, 11:16 AM

The world is going to end !

GM can use bankruptcy as a way of restructing the business, cutting debt, cutting restrictive deals (healthcare for workers / that should be the governments job) and starting new.

They will always be building cars.

**ebxr8240** · 10-04-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

The world is going to end !

GM can use bankruptcy as a way of restructing the business, cutting debt, cutting restrictive deals (healthcare for workers / that should be the governments job) and starting new.

They will always be building cars.

Exactly they will pass all there debts to Pontiac "for example" and trade as normal.. People in business do this all the time.. To a [little] lesser extent..

Gobes32 · 10-04-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

A few big ones. Bosch Australia, PBR, Walker exhausts. There would be quite a few of them.

Oh bother, do Bosch manufacture locally? And as for PBR, maybe Ford should start thinking about a different brake supplier? Many people think the brakes on BA/BF were rubbish and it's only a matter of time before we find out about FG's.......

Swordsman88 · 10-04-2009, 09:34 PM

i think alot of people on here need to rethink their view on Holden being sold off. Sure GM will have to drastically shrink its operations, including selling off overseas operations. The question is at what point does selling the stuff off hurt you more than it saves you. For example, unless you do a deal with the new owners of opel (can't believe they want to sell this off, shows how stuffed they are, its like Ford selling off Ford of Europe???) to share platforms/tech.

Ford did a similar deal RE engines and some engineering for Jag/LR and Aston when it sold them, but that wasn't wholesale platforms etc. Those companies were becoming more niche and developing their own platforms for years before Ford decided to sell them anyway. Companies like Opel (and particularly holden) are GM now. Not a small part, not a little company they own, they are GM. There is no Holden teh australian company (as we know it).

The VE may be trumpeted as the last from the ground up local platform, but i only went ahead because GM (via Lutz) wanted Zeta. When they decided they didnt' want Zeta any more (2007 i think) holden just about shat itself. Then they realised that they would need it again because trucks weren't selling (doh) and they wanted camaro etc. to go ahead. Either way, Holden does a crap load of engineering and design work for GM (just as Ford Aus does for Ford) and separating them would be messy and costly. If GM thinks it doesn't need Zeta in the future (possible, Ford is thinking about dumping GRWD) then maybe, as long as they do a deal with Holden's new owners to keep building Camaro off that platform. Possibly someone will buy GM's overeas operations in pieces (mid east/asia/pacific, europe) but it won't be easy. Its not like selling Saab or even hummer or saturn.

As long as Holden helps GM more than it hurts it (small losses here in the grand scheme of things) then GM might, stress might be able to keep holden going by using US gov. money (though that would be politically a problem for obama). As for Holden itself, well it has bigger problems in its lineup than some DoD, ethanol and a Daewoo designed astra knock off in local production.

I hope they survive to be honest, competition is good and aussies should keep their jobs. I just hope they learn some lessons about offering a quality lineup and not sticking their head in the sand. Ford took the pain early, and was quick thinking, willing to reverse decisions (duratec V6 etc.) both locally and globally. GM was too little, too late. And that includes Holden and its rushed supposed small car saviour......

Gobes32 · 10-04-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

GM was too little, too late. And that includes Holden and its rushed supposed small car saviour......

Did anyone else notice in a GoAuto article that the "Holden Cruze" is due for production in late 2011? I thought it was supposed to be next year?

Swordsman88 · 10-04-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Did anyone else notice in a GoAuto article that the "Holden Cruze" is due for production in late 2011? I thought it was supposed to be next year?

Well holden says it is, and i think it will be (even if only just, maybe on sale start of 2011). Ford says next gen focus in 2011, but i havent seen any mules running around europe yet. Probably in current gen car body, new bodies next year i suppose. So Ford should be on deadline sometinem 2011.

It wouldn't be the first time holden have said something is coming, and it doesn't on time or not till much much later. I remember in 2005 (2004???) when VZ launched with new V6 and V8 (that was DoD capable). holden said i didn't have DoD because it didn't meet NVH standards (so GM north america must have lower standards??? not according to local journos that drove the engine over there). Then on VE, still no DoD (even though the engine was hardly small, the car heavier and the V6 was carry over so no engine work there....).

THey are pathological liars in this regard, tell the media one thing, then do another. That great leader of their Denny Mooney (he of the Daewoo rebadging etc.) claimed they were working on LPG, DI, diesel and E85 AT THE SAME TIME they were doing Camaro for the yanks. Oh yeah, holden has that many engineers does it. Upon retirment Tony Hyde admitted that diesel for commodore (was years away) and DI was still being worked on by GM in the states and it would be some time before Port Melbourne would buid alloytec with DI. This was 2-3 years ago now..... What a crock of you know what.

It coudl be a great car, who knows. But the Ford Europe guys are no mugs, and the Focus is a quality product. Last car Holden rushed to market to beat ford (adventra vs territory) went reall well didn't it now.....