Muscle Car prices slowly going down

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by HO 3

I would recommend that they do it the old fashion way....be patient, work hard, save their dough so they can genuinely afford these luxurys!


Cheers Mick

I did it the old fashion way to get the 2 cars I have always wanted, but I don't care if muscle car prices go up or down. I got the cars as keepers for my son and myself to enjoy............My son gets his L plates in a couple of months , so he'll get to enjoy driving a V8 for at least a year.........Then he'll have to wait a couple of years before he is eligible to drive them by himself....

[Chopped]

Houses and Muscle cars are both subject to "Market Values".

Markets can change rapidly, both ways, NOTHING is set in stone.

When selling, you will only get back what someone else is willing to spend.

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

Totally agree with the above

Some people consider borrowing against equity in property as a bad thing

For example, if you have close to $2m equity in properties is it still considered a bad thing to draw down $60-$100k for a dream muscle car?

It all boils down to whether or not you can service the debt in my opinion.

Now that is funny!


Cheers Mick

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

I did it the old fashion way to get the 2 cars I have always wanted, but I don't care if muscle car prices go up or down. I got the cars as keepers for my son and myself to enjoy............My son gets his L plates in a couple of months , so he'll get to enjoy driving a V8 for at least a year.........Then he'll have to wait a couple of years before he is eligible to drive them by himself....

Me too........imo if you need to borrow the money to purchase such a luxury you can not really afford it!


Cheers Mick

[4Vman]

My golden rule is pay cash for toys......

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

Totally agree with the above

Some people consider borrowing against equity in property as a bad thing

For example, if you have close to $2m equity in properties is it still considered a bad thing to draw down $60-$100k for a dream muscle car?

It all boils down to whether or not you can service the debt in my opinion.

Absolutely. If you have $2m EQUITY (as in, own that portion), then $100k for an XY GT isn't going to sting. But most people don't have that much equity. In fact, a lot of people have just been treating their mortgages like an ATM, based on the "rising valuations" of their home... some extending an originally $250k to $400k because their property is now "worth" $450 or 500k.

When the prices crash, a lot of people will be left debts that are worth more than their assets. When you're talking 300k more than your assets I can only imagine how uncomfortable this would feel... especially if you lose your job.

If property prices take the hit most (non-real estate funded) economists are expecting, then a lot of people will be looking to offload assets like Muscle cars and boats etc to try and close the gap between their debts.

If unemployment goes up to 8% then there would be a firesale on property and assets, like we saw last recession. The market would flood and muscle car prices would feel the reverse sting of the supply and demand cycles.

Australia is the only country in the world to have dodged this bullet so far. Just look at what happened to the house market, and the muscle car market over in the US.

[gcg2503]

Originally Posted by HO 3

Now that is funny!


Cheers Mick

What do you find so humourous Mick?

:

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

My golden rule is pay cash for toys......

Yep, I had that drummed into me as a youngen....... trying to instill it into my little darlings as well....................not easy thou......this generation is a bit like an old Austalian Crawl song, " Live now, pay later "

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

When you're talking top shelf classic musclecars the condition v resto cost is allways a factor in its value.
Good cars will allways fetch good money, tired, less desired or cars with "issues" wont...
The difference between a tired low spec XYGT and a no expense spared concourse rare color XYGT could be over 100k even today.....
But you need to have a bit of a clue about these cars to know that, and no chip on your shoulder about their values......

I always look for nice original unrestored cars, and these are the ones that deserve the big money. Obviously the rarer the options the higher the value.
A shiny paint job with some stripes and some stolen original parts doesnt mean a replica can be sold for top dollar...but any one that is clued up would know that.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

Absolutely. If you have $2m EQUITY (as in, own that portion), then $100k for an XY GT isn't going to sting. But most people don't have that much equity. In fact, a lot of people have just been treating their mortgages like an ATM, based on the "rising valuations" of their home... some extending an originally $250k to $400k because their property is now "worth" $450 or 500k.

When the prices crash, a lot of people will be left debts that are worth more than their assets. When you're talking 300k more than your assets I can only imagine how uncomfortable this would feel... especially if you lose your job.

If property prices take the hit most (non-real estate funded) economists are expecting, then a lot of people will be looking to offload assets like Muscle cars and boats etc to try and close the gap between their debts.

If unemployment goes up to 8% then there would be a firesale on property and assets, like we saw last recession. The market would flood and muscle car prices would feel the reverse sting of the supply and demand cycles.

Australia is the only country in the world to have dodged this bullet so far. Just look at what happened to the house market, and the muscle car market over in the US.

pessimistic much?
your about 2 years behind where things are economically.
Yeah we got it better than most, but we did JUST have a recession, historically speaking we shouldn't expect another for 7-14 years from now.
Job openings are on the rise, and so are wages and house prices. Were back in the boom side of things.

If your going to carry on about economics like your a doctorate in the matter, you've got to base it on some truth, and what you're saying is holding on to no factual values.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

My golden rule is pay cash for toys......

I would have nothing if that was the case! If anyone can afford it any ways possible, then it is never a problem for anyone!

Originally Posted by HO 3

Now that is funny!
Cheers Mick

Wouldn't mind knowing as well ..... what is funny? Must have flown over my head that one.



| [/url] |

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

Totally agree with the above

Some people consider borrowing against equity in property as a bad thing

For example, if you have close to $2m equity in properties is it still considered a bad thing to draw down $60-$100k for a dream muscle car?

It all boils down to whether or not you can service the debt in my opinion.

Damn true that....Most of the rich have only become rich through sensible borrowing. Borrowing for a classic car in a rising market makes perfect sense and is no exception in order to secure it at today's price....Better still - use it for weekend weddings occasionally and claim the interest and car depreciation as a business tax write off

[irish2]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

Australia is the only country in the world to have dodged this bullet so far. Just look at what happened to the house market, and the muscle car market over in the US.

We are different to the US. There you can walk away from the bad debt, the bank takes ownership and you have no more legal obligations on that asset. All it takes is a local industry to close and the houses in a certain area drop like rocks. If Mt Isa mines closed tomorrow you would be able to buy houses there for loose change. We are experiencing population growth which drives demand for everything.

If you are such a knowledgable economist why don't you understand about stimulus spending? The idea is to stop the big drops to in turn stop the big highs. Central control of lending interest rates is also key to this. America and Britain reacted too slowly and were the worst hit. During the great depression governments all around the world stopped spending and it was only goverment spending that ended the depression in the form of WW2.

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by xy500

pessimistic much?
your about 2 years behind where things are economically.
Yeah we got it better than most, but we did JUST have a recession, historically speaking we shouldn't expect another for 7-14 years from now.
Job openings are on the rise, and so are wages and house prices. Were back in the boom side of things.

If your going to carry on about economics like your a doctorate in the matter, you've got to base it on some truth, and what you're saying is holding on to no factual values.

You must swallow every line you're given in the press without analysing any of the stats you read.

1) The job numbers are horrid! Sure, employment went up last report... but where? 27000 new part time jobs! We still lost over 30,000 full time jobs. So, at Christmas time, when pubs, clubs, shops etc need part time staff, what do you expect to happen? What's going to happen over the next few months?

2) Banks are nervous as hell about lending to FHB... just increased minimum deposits. You now need between 10-20% deposit. Why? Because they are TRYING to ease the bubble slightly before it goes POP. They are looking at the rest of the world sh**** themselves. They know Australians are way over extended.

3) We're in boom? Are you on crack? WTF? Retail sales figures came back and were disappointing to the market. What's going to happen to the retail figures, now that the stimulus has been wound back? No more mass plasma TV sales to prop up retail. Add the rising interest rates... retail gets smashed.

Look at what happened last week - Wall St lost 2.5% in one day, we got caught up in it and posted the worst losses in a year. Aussie dollar went from 91 to 87c. Boom? Yeah right!

4) Greece and Portugal are not able to meet their payments... this is causing much nervousness in global economies. Basically, the banks stop lending to each other and they stop lending to businesses and us. The economy grinds to a hault - remember 18 months ago? GFC? OK...

5) America is bankrupt! This is not an overnight fix. 2 months ago the US posted the highest bankruptcy rate in years! They are sliding fast, spending big and have no money to pay their creditors - China, Saudis etc. They are screwed.

6) Wages are on the rise? In what industry? WTF did that come from? The mining sector, which is still to replace the tens of thousands they laid off when the GFC hit.

7) Housing prices are going up. I wonder why...???? Let's offer free stamp duty, the lowest interst rates since the '30s, throw in a 15k to young kids to trick them into getting a mortgage, relax foreign investment laws (yes, in some areas real estate agents are saying that 75% of the buyers are Chinese businessmen). Now, let's get a bunch of "real estate analysts" and "experts", to pump fear into the media consumers with ideas that the real estate market is never going to stop goiing up. Oh that's right, most of those analysts work for developers and other industires that rely on growing prices.

Question: how many people in Australia right now do you think will be able to afford their mortgage at 12% interest? That's an average interest rate. Interest rates are heading to 10% in the next couple of years. This is reality.

8) As a nation we have astronomical household debt. It's now more than we make. This is a HUGE problem.

9) WAKE UP! Have a look at what happened to the rest of the world. Every major economy took its medicine. What we did was artificially prop up certain sectors of the economy. Yes, on paper we narroly avoided a bad recession, but we should have taken our medicine.

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by irish2

We are different to the US. There you can walk away from the bad debt, the bank takes ownership and you have no more legal obligations on that asset. All it takes is a local industry to close and the houses in a certain area drop like rocks. If Mt Isa mines closed tomorrow you would be able to buy houses there for loose change. We are experiencing population growth which drives demand for everything.

If you are such a knowledgable economist why don't you understand about stimulus spending? The idea is to stop the big drops to in turn stop the big highs. Central control of lending interest rates is also key to this. America and Britain reacted too slowly and were the worst hit. During the great depression governments all around the world stopped spending and it was only goverment spending that ended the depression in the form of WW2.

Stimulus spending can work. Yes. But exactly how long did the great depression last for? 18 months? NO! It took about a decade for the US to fully recover. Plus the stimulus here wasn't a "get men to work" stimulus like it was back then. That stimulus was an economy built from the ground up. The low skilled, low paid workers were given jobs on long term projects (not putting a new dunny in a school for a month). Increase demand slowly and organically.

Our stimulus was different...

LEt's give the general public cheques to go out and prop up the retail sector? OK, bubble 1 inflated!

Let's drop interest rates to encourage building... oh, and look here we have free stamp duty, FHB grant. Bubble 2... inflated... oh crap, can it take any more? Let's pump it up even more!

The stimulus is coming to an end. We will see a retraction in the sectors it propped up.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

You must swallow every line you're given in the press without analysing any of the stats you read.

1) ..... etc

And Muscle car prices have tumbled .... now everyone can have one. This is the topic being discussed I believe ....



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[Geez Louise]

I wanted to sell the coupe about 18mths ago...and could not find a buyer...

Are muscle car prices tumbling? There is still alot of people out there willing to pay top dollar for their dream car as it always will be...

Prices rise and fall but looking at it long term...They will get harder and harder to come by...that can only mean more value in my opinion.

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

And Muscle car prices have tumbled .... now everyone can have one. This is the topic being discussed I believe ....

Sorry aout that, tangent.. kind of a segue that evolved with the reasons. :

[xy500]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

You must swallow every line you're given in the press without analysing any of the stats you read.

Well the same could be said for yourself, except you only seem to read the bad, and non existent newspaper.

1) The job numbers are horrid! Sure, employment went up last report... but where? 27000 new part time jobs! We still lost over 30,000 full time jobs. So, at Christmas time, when pubs, clubs, shops etc need part time staff, what do you expect to happen? What's going to happen over the next few months?

Well this just shows your lack of understanding for the statistics given in unemployment numbers, look up seasonal correction. Then you'll see your misunderstanding the numbers.

2) Banks are nervous as hell about lending to FHB... just increased minimum deposits. You now need between 10-20% deposit. Why? Because they are TRYING to ease the bubble slightly before it goes POP. They are looking at the rest of the world sh**** themselves. They know Australians are way over extended.

Nervous as hell? or back to normal? a 10% deposit was standard fare before the last recession. 20% deposit? i don't know where you pulled that from, likely the same place you get the rest of your 'inside info'. Banks would only ask this size deposit from someone with a shocking credit history. what your seeing in first home buyers are people whose lifestyle values have changed, and owning a home is all the more important to them. It is true that more people in aus are in mortgage stress, which is a measure of repayments as compared to income, not necessarily a measure of how much people can deal with a debt.

3) We're in boom? Are you on crack? WTF? Retail sales figures came back and were disappointing to the market. What's going to happen to the retail figures, now that the stimulus has been wound back? No more mass plasma TV sales to prop up retail. Add the rising interest rates... retail gets smashed.

hahaha, not familiar with the economic cycles now are we? it goes boom-bust-boom etc. so which are we in? after we've just come out of a bust? retail figures disappointing? not a particularly good economic measure... disappointment is an opinion or state of mind, not the state of economy. Interest rates, ahhh your specialty i'm guessing? they've come up to normal, they're still much lower than 2, 3 or even 4 years ago. to think they would stay at emergency lows is pretty close minded.

Look at what happened last week - Wall St lost 2.5% in one day, we got caught up in it and posted the worst losses in a year. Aussie dollar went from 91 to 87c. Boom? Yeah right!

Whats one day? it is to be expected that markets would be volatile until confidence increases. Some people make a lot of money in volatile markets. Watch the long term, months and years and you see the real state of things.

4) Greece and Portugal are not able to meet their payments... this is causing much nervousness in global economies. Basically, the banks stop lending to each other and they stop lending to businesses and us. The economy grinds to a hault - remember 18 months ago? GFC? OK...

Greece and portugal will cause a new gfc will they? You're talking about past problems that aren't particularly pertinent to aus.

5) America is bankrupt! This is not an overnight fix. 2 months ago the US posted the highest bankruptcy rate in years! They are sliding fast, spending big and have no money to pay their creditors - China, Saudis etc. They are screwed.

Wow! that might be the stupidest thing i've heard, though it does depend on whether you use our definition or the states def of bankrupt. Problems in the states stemmed from their differing laws to us; mainly that home owners can walk out of a mortgage without worrying about repaying it if they forfeit their house. Something you cannot do in aus, and there is many other reasons the states fared worse than many.

6) Wages are on the rise? In what industry? WTF did that come from? The mining sector, which is still to replace the tens of thousands they laid off when the GFC hit.

Yeah, and i'm not talking about your patented day to day scale, but over the last year, wages have either risen or stayed static mostly.

7) Housing prices are going up. I wonder why...???? Let's offer free stamp duty, the lowest interst rates since the '30s, throw in a 15k to young kids to trick them into getting a mortgage, relax foreign investment laws (yes, in some areas real estate agents are saying that 75% of the buyers are Chinese businessmen). Now, let's get a bunch of "real estate analysts" and "experts", to pump fear into the media consumers with ideas that the real estate market is never going to stop goiing up. Oh that's right, most of those analysts work for developers and other industires that rely on growing prices.

So now interest rates are low? or are they high?
This is probably your most clueless statement, you have no idea about the real estate industry and its recent performance. Basic market theory: supply and demand. demand for houses, particularly in the first home buyers area, is very strong. And many agents i know are doing very well atm, 'as good as ever' is the consensus on the state of the real estate market. 75% chinese businessmen? where are you from? the 30's? most of the market is still local, as you may have noticed aus is quite expensive to buy into atm.

Question: how many people in Australia right now do you think will be able to afford their mortgage at 12% interest? That's an average interest rate. Interest rates are heading to 10% in the next couple of years. This is reality.

How many people are paying 12% interest? because they must be using the bank of stupidity. I would like to see your credentials in interest rate prediction to make such wild claims. Even the rba wouldn't have a clue where things will be in 2 years. 10% is keating territory anyway, and i hope we've seen the last of that.

8) As a nation we have astronomical household debt. It's now more than we make. This is a HUGE problem.

where did you get your numbers for this one? fairy land?

9) WAKE UP! Have a look at what happened to the rest of the world. Every major economy took its medicine. What we did was artificially prop up certain sectors of the economy. Yes, on paper we narroly avoided a bad recession, but we should have taken our medicine.

Everyone else took the same or very similar actions to us, we were lucky. Its not like the gfc is going to reignite just to make sure the world market is all fair and even the free market is controlled by the organism that is the human collective.
The funny thing is, its pessimism likes yours that fuels the bust in the cycle. Making it worse than it needs to be. Likewise over optimism feeds the boom cycle excessively. It's a balanced approach you need to weather the storms and store away in the good times. Your words may have been accepted as revelation 2 years ago, but unfortunately that's where your understanding of economics has left you.

PS. interest rates rising, means that inflation is increasing, which means that there is strong growth = things are going well!

[xy500]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

Stimulus spending can work. Yes. But exactly how long did the great depression last for? 18 months? NO! It took about a decade for the US to fully recover. Plus the stimulus here wasn't a "get men to work" stimulus like it was back then. That stimulus was an economy built from the ground up. The low skilled, low paid workers were given jobs on long term projects (not putting a new dunny in a school for a month). Increase demand slowly and organically.

Our stimulus was different...

LEt's give the general public cheques to go out and prop up the retail sector? OK, bubble 1 inflated!

Let's drop interest rates to encourage building... oh, and look here we have free stamp duty, FHB grant. Bubble 2... inflated... oh crap, can it take any more? Let's pump it up even more!

The stimulus is coming to an end. We will see a retraction in the sectors it propped up.

the stimulus ran out a long time ago, in the scale of an economy it was a drop in the ocean

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

Australia is the only country in the world to have dodged this bullet so far. Just look at what happened to the house market, and the muscle car market over in the US.

talking to the guys on dodge charger forum, prices have come down a lot on the highest priced items and only a little on 'average' muscle cars. suggests to me that the only ones affected were those who were buying muscle cars as an investment. :togo:

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

And Muscle car prices have tumbled .... now everyone can have one. This is the topic being discussed I believe ....

Looking at XA and XB GTs, the four door cars seem to have come down in value, but there do not seem to be many hardtops on the market. The few 4V Hardtops that are on the market are asking the same prices that they did before the GFC.

[gcg2503]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Looking at XA and XB GTs, the four door cars seem to have come down in value, but there do not seem to be many hardtops on the market. The few 4V Hardtops that are on the market are asking the same prices that they did before the GFC.

I believe the prices of good XA and XB hardtops have also come down mate

Sure it is not a 4v, but that deep aqua XB GT coupe is on FMC for $48k and still hasnt sold

Desirable XA GT Wild Violet White Interior cars are at high $50s and not moving at all (2 examples currently for sale)

XB GT sedans are selling very cheap - saw one for very high $20s which is a fair price. It wasnt a complete basket case either!

[Chopped]

This is why Muscle car prices grew (In line with the more money/wealth in the market) >



...Hey wait a minute is that chart taking on the resemblance of a "Triple Top Formation" **alarm bells**

It might be safer to sell your muscle car and buy some gold, but then gold offers nowhere near the fun of a muscle car.

Life is about fun . :

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

XB GT sedans are selling very cheap - saw one for very high $20s which is a fair price. It wasnt a complete basket case either!

Why the dramatic difference? Why are the XB GT Sedans so much less desirable?

[gcg2503]

Sedans are always less desirable than Coupes. Plus less supply of Coupes vs Sedans

Usually $20k - $30k difference between the two shapes

This holds for both XA and XB variants

Edit: XB sedans are less desirable than their XA predecessor. Just the way it is. Much like XYs being more desirable than XWs

Please note, the high $20s XB I quoted needed restoration. The High $50s XAs i were quoting were examples not needing repaint etc etc

I would put the diff between a good XA and good XB at around $10k

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

Sedans are always less desirable than Coupes. Plus less supply of Coupes vs Sedans

Usually $20k - $30k difference between the two shapes

This holds for both XA and XB variants

Edit: XB sedans are less desirable than their XA predecessor. Just the way it is. Much like XYs being more desirable than XWs

Please note, the high $20s XB I quoted needed restoration. The High $50s XAs i were quoting were examples not needing repaint etc etc

I would put the diff between a good XA and good XB at around $10k

OK, cool. That's interesting because if you look over @ Holden, cars like the HJ-HX 4 door Monaro are massively cheaper... I always assumed it was a lack of racing pedigree. But yeah, these are the periphery cars I would expect to see most attainable during the downturns in the market.

[4Vman]

One thing we need to be very careful of is quoting "values" for a particular model like every example will be the same and they're set in stone.....
There is a massive difference in market value between a late common color 76 auto XBGT sedan that's with no options and needing a full resto and a super rare color, manual, 4V big port 73, optioned up XBGT sedan with only 20000 original miles on it.....

No point quoting replica values either because they're not genuine factory musclecars and they can range from anywhere from a tired XY future with a stripe and fibreglass shaker to a full blown Phase 3 clone that's un pickable from a genuine car......

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

One thing we need to be very careful of is quoting "values" for a particular model like every example will be the same and they're set in stone.....
There is a massive difference in market value between a late common color 76 auto XBGT sedan that's with no options and needing a full resto and a super rare color, manual, 4V big port 73, optioned up XBGT sedan with only 20000 original miles on it.....

No point quoting replica values either because they're not genuine factory musclecars and they can range from anywhere from a tired XY future with a stripe and fibreglass shaker to a full blown Phase 3 clone that's un pickable from a genuine car......

4Vman - been waiting for a post like this... ;)

The above info is for those who are 'in the know' about cars, and GT's in general. I had the same question asked of me just this morning....

There is an XB GT for sale in current Unique Cars (issue 308)...
Page 94 - Matching numbers, rebuilt mechanically, apollo blue - $49000
Also:
Page 211 - Matching numbers, good condition, steel blue - $25000

Big difference for essentially the same car (both cars not rare Big Port of course)...

Now why would that be?? One is DOUBLE the price of the other...
And we're not talking XA GT vs XA GT RP0 83 here... we're talking very similar spec cars...

Exactly what 4Vman has said applies to this example...

I know which car that I'd rather buy...

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

One thing we need to be very careful of is quoting "values" for a particular model like every example will be the same and they're set in stone.....
There is a massive difference in market value between a late common color 76 auto XBGT sedan that's with no options and needing a full resto and a super rare color, manual, 4V big port 73, optioned up XBGT sedan with only 20000 original miles on it.....

No point quoting replica values either because they're not genuine factory musclecars and they can range from anywhere from a tired XY future with a stripe and fibreglass shaker to a full blown Phase 3 clone that's un pickable from a genuine car......

Very true. I did get quite excited to hear of the disparity between XA and XB though.