should police stop high speed chases

[DJR-351]

According to this report over 150 deaths since 1990 as a direct result of police pursuits....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

....the thing i want to avoid personally is the acceptable "collateral" damage mentality, when i start to think like that i will seriously be questioning my own humanity...

Again, i am not blaming the police for any of this....

[vegabass]

4 People died all for a stolen VN.

Pitty he died instantly.

Police should continue to do what they were doing.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Wally

I'm not staunch like a copper, but I know how I'd feel........ like I had just contributed to several people's death.

We don't condone capital punishment for murderers, but we seem far less concerned for human life when someone steals a car.

I do, and would, condone capital punishment. If there was a vote held tomorrow, I know which box I'd be ticking.
Criminals that prove themselves to be impossible to rehabilitate/educate are removed from society for good. Why bother giving them accommodation, just flick the switch and watch the lights dim.

I'm all for increased force for the coppers as per merlin's post.
Get the job over and done with quickly to reduce the amount of time the public is at risk.
How the hell wasnt this guy in jail?

[geckoGT]

Further to this issue and being a forward thinker, I have the solution and it is one that is possible in todays technology.

Make it law that all vehicles and fitted with a combined satellite tracking/engine kill device which is monitored by police control. Legislate the fitment of the devices along with strict laws on their use. Make it law that the police can only activate the device in instances they have observed the offender driving dangerously, have attempted to get the offender to pull over and are able to visually identify the vehicle to police control (VKI). As a part of this all police vehicles would also need to be fitted with satellite tracking (I imagine they as our vehicles are).

The radio call would happen something like this.

104 to VKI, observed vehicle traveling 120+ in 60 zone, attempting traffic stop.

VKI to 104, roger that.

104 to VKI, driver has failed to stop and is accelerating, reference my location, 400m west, speed approx 150.

VKI to 104, roger, tracking vehicle, located on george st, vehicle is a blue commodore SS, rego is IAMADH.

104 to VKI, roger that, correct vehicle, disable now.

VKI to 104, vehicle disabled.

104 to VKI, roger that and on scene.

The result is no chase, the bad guy apprehended and no one hurt. If any law abiding citizen is serious about getting rid of police chases, they will consent to the fitting such a device with the correct legislation covering its use that protects their privacy. Anyone against this more likely has something to hide.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

no CHASE them, people are trained to be AWARE on the roads, the problem is that no one is, and NO I'm not placing the blame on family's killed in light of recent events the fault of that lies DIRECTLY with the moron waste of oxygen who decided to steel the car in the first place, but if people were more aware of what is going on around them and stopped following the bonnet of their car and thinking everything was ok then we would have less crashes full stop, one thing I got taught a while back was regardless of 'right or wrong' you cant argue that point if your dead...

the issue of the crashes lies squarely in the hands of the one breaking the law in the first place, DONT try and blame the cops for that, can you imagine how they felt when they turned up to the scene? the problem with asking this question on a forum or in the papers is that you have armchair bandits who have NEVER been in that situation nor would have the balls to do the job of the officers involved, so in turn have NO right to comment.

rant off.

Excellent post, 100% correct.
You always get one or two screwballs who know better and criticise those who are there to help and protect us. What happened was nothing but a tragedy, but we need to keep perspective.

Facts are that the now dead bogan twat has done this before and ended up in a coma; all too sadly for his new victims he didn't die then. From the comments of his family I'm guessing they are on the lower end of the socio-economic scale; but it's not surprising they have a "screw the police" attitude.

With the attitudes on display amongst this lot, a large portion of blame can be attributed directly to the parents of the undisciplined bogan. How dare they "Want Justice" when their son for the second time engaged in a high stakes game of risk between himself, the police, and the community at large. If you want someone to blame, blame the bogans that gave him that self righteous attitude coupled with a sense of entitlement. Not only did this idiot display a complete disregard for others, he's been in a similar accident before and even after that, still chose to steal cars and drive faster than his abilities. Whatsmore he showed so much regard for the law that he chose to drive unlicenced; a look in to his attitude towards authority and respect. Nope, one less thieving twat with no regard for anyone else is a good thing; the circumstances under which Darwins theory of evolution has been vindicated again are the tragic thing. I have absolutely no compassion for him or his dumb *** family.

I do however have compassion for the victims, their relatives, but I also have compassion for the police who were trying to stop this lunatic hurting others. Who knows, had he not collided with the victims' car he may have run a commuter bus off the road and killed many more.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Further to this issue and being a forward thinker, I have the solution and it is one that is possible in todays technology.

Make it law that all vehicles and fitted with a combined satellite tracking/engine kill device which is monitored by police control. Legislate the fitment of the devices along with strict laws on their use. Make it law that the police can only activate the device in instances they have observed the offender driving dangerously, have attempted to get the offender to pull over and are able to visually identify the vehicle to police control (VKI). As a part of this all police vehicles would also need to be fitted with satellite tracking (I imagine they as our vehicles are).

The radio call would happen something like this.

104 to VKI, observed vehicle traveling 120+ in 60 zone, attempting traffic stop.

VKI to 104, roger that.

104 to VKI, driver has failed to stop and is accelerating, reference my location, 400m west, speed approx 150.

VKI to 104, roger, tracking vehicle, located on george st, vehicle is a blue commodore SS, rego is IAMADH.

104 to VKI, roger that, correct vehicle, disable now.

VKI to 104, vehicle disabled.

104 to VKI, roger that and on scene.

The result is no chase, the bad guy apprehended and no one hurt. If any law abiding citizen is serious about getting rid of police chases, they will consent to the fitting such a device with the correct legislation covering its use that protects their privacy. Anyone against this more likely has something to hide.

Toyota would be very interested in a product such as this ??

[uranium_death]

There is too much focus on the police in this issue.
The issue is idiots doing the wrong thing.
Look at their families...they clearly have absolutely no concept of responsibility and refuse to accept that either their own family member was an idiot, or that the fella from the other family was a fool...no, let's point to the police...they have deep pockets.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Confused.

Poll: should police be involved in high speed chases

Subject: should police stop high speed chases

Contradict each other - this poll is meaningless.

I have CLOSED THE POLL due to above reasons.

Asking one question in the thread title and then the opposite question in the poll itself does not bode well for accurate results :

Thread remains open for comments but poll is now locked.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Further to this issue and being a forward thinker, I have the solution and it is one that is possible in todays technology.

Make it law that all vehicles and fitted with a combined satellite tracking/engine kill device which is monitored by police control. Legislate the fitment of the devices along with strict laws on their use. Make it law that the police can only activate the device in instances they have observed the offender driving dangerously, have attempted to get the offender to pull over and are able to visually identify the vehicle to police control (VKI). As a part of this all police vehicles would also need to be fitted with satellite tracking (I imagine they as our vehicles are).

The radio call would happen something like this.

104 to VKI, observed vehicle traveling 120+ in 60 zone, attempting traffic stop.

VKI to 104, roger that.

104 to VKI, driver has failed to stop and is accelerating, reference my location, 400m west, speed approx 150.

VKI to 104, roger, tracking vehicle, located on george st, vehicle is a blue commodore SS, rego is IAMADH.

104 to VKI, roger that, correct vehicle, disable now.

VKI to 104, vehicle disabled.

104 to VKI, roger that and on scene.

The result is no chase, the bad guy apprehended and no one hurt. If any law abiding citizen is serious about getting rid of police chases, they will consent to the fitting such a device with the correct legislation covering its use that protects their privacy. Anyone against this more likely has something to hide.

Brilliant, but it would never happen. It makes too much sense, and would cost the taxation office....I mean, RTA too much money. Also the state tumour.... I mean governments would then be forced to put police on the roads; after all they've proven to do nothing but replace police with cameras.

[colossus]

In the highly informative movie that was Fast and Furious 2 the pursuit cars used an EMP device fired from a rifle which fried a cars electronics and rendered the chase over. Science fiction or is Paul Walker the solution?

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Further to this issue and being a forward thinker, I have the solution and it is one that is possible in todays technology.

Make it law that all vehicles and fitted with a combined satellite tracking/engine kill device which is monitored by police control. Legislate the fitment of the devices along with strict laws on their use. Make it law that the police can only activate the device in instances they have observed the offender driving dangerously, have attempted to get the offender to pull over and are able to visually identify the vehicle to police control (VKI). As a part of this all police vehicles would also need to be fitted with satellite tracking (I imagine they as our vehicles are).

The radio call would happen something like this.

104 to VKI, observed vehicle traveling 120+ in 60 zone, attempting traffic stop.

VKI to 104, roger that.

104 to VKI, driver has failed to stop and is accelerating, reference my location, 400m west, speed approx 150.

VKI to 104, roger, tracking vehicle, located on george st, vehicle is a blue commodore SS, rego is IAMADH.

104 to VKI, roger that, correct vehicle, disable now.

VKI to 104, vehicle disabled.

104 to VKI, roger that and on scene.

The result is no chase, the bad guy apprehended and no one hurt. If any law abiding citizen is serious about getting rid of police chases, they will consent to the fitting such a device with the correct legislation covering its use that protects their privacy. Anyone against this more likely has something to hide.

Where you driving my Limo from Brisbane Airport yesterday???? he virtually said word for word what you just posted.....

Another good reason for a device such as this is if the police see a vehical such as the one stolen in this case, they can disable it immediatly before any other action is required....

[ltd]

Originally Posted by colossus

In the highly informative movie that was Fast and Furious 2 the pursuit cars used an EMP device fired from a rifle which fried a cars electronics and rendered the chase over. Science fiction or is Paul Walker the solution?

Interesting point, but the snivel libertarians are arguing; "what if someone with a pacemaker is coming the other way?" So no on the EMP.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Further to this issue and being a forward thinker, I have the solution and it is one that is possible in todays technology.

Make it law that all vehicles and fitted with a combined satellite tracking/engine kill device which is monitored by police control. Legislate the fitment of the devices along with strict laws on their use. Make it law that the police can only activate the device in instances they have observed the offender driving dangerously, have attempted to get the offender to pull over and are able to visually identify the vehicle to police control (VKI). As a part of this all police vehicles would also need to be fitted with satellite tracking (I imagine they as our vehicles are).

The radio call would happen something like this.

104 to VKI, observed vehicle traveling 120+ in 60 zone, attempting traffic stop.

VKI to 104, roger that.

104 to VKI, driver has failed to stop and is accelerating, reference my location, 400m west, speed approx 150.

VKI to 104, roger, tracking vehicle, located on george st, vehicle is a blue commodore SS, rego is IAMADH.

104 to VKI, roger that, correct vehicle, disable now.

VKI to 104, vehicle disabled.

104 to VKI, roger that and on scene.

The result is no chase, the bad guy apprehended and no one hurt. If any law abiding citizen is serious about getting rid of police chases, they will consent to the fitting such a device with the correct legislation covering its use that protects their privacy. Anyone against this more likely has something to hide.

There was i high speed chase in Adelaide a while back involving a HSV that had this option. Police refused to shut the vehicle down due to 'safety' reason's.. Loss of power steering??.. Oh the nancy world we live in.. :

[colossus]

It also seems also these crashes, chases, drink drivers, speedsters ect all have one thing in common. They are unlicensed/unregistered. Similar to the alcohol interlocks why can't all cars be fitted with a "license interlock". You have to swipe your license through an electronic reader to start the car. A one of license/rego fee would pay for the fitment.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

According to this report over 150 deaths since 1990 as a direct result of police pursuits....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

....the thing i want to avoid personally is the acceptable "collateral" damage mentality, when i start to think like that i will seriously be questioning my own humanity...

Again, i am not blaming the police for any of this....

Thanks for finding that information.

When you review the 150 deaths since 1990 as a result of police pursuits and compare that with the number of deaths since 1990 in the national road toll, the perspective changes.

In the 1990-2008 time period there were 34,342 deaths according to government stats. Of these only 150 were as result of police chases, that is only 0.0043% of the entire road toll over that time period.

What we do not know, is how many of all the police chases over that time period resulted in apprehension of the offender and a death prevented? I would suggest it is likely to be considerably more than 150. Also how many illegal acts were prevented in the knowledge that police will pursue and apprehend by the less committed thrill seekers out there? This number is likely to be massive, each one a potential fatal accident prevented.

My point, do not remove police rights to enforce law without safer and more effective mechanisms in place.

[XR Martin]

Its not like the chase went on for hours.

Car goes through a booze bus RBT, cops assume he is a drunk driver (or worse) that needs to be apprehended, they take flight after him, offender is in a 626 turbo, (which even today is quite quick and easily does 200kmh)
Road is about 5km long, which at 200km+ is done in 3mins.
Car goes through a major intersection without even slowing down a little, they call it off as they know its not going to end well. Two intersections later (1km or so) he has the accident.
It was probably all over in about 5mins from start to finish.
Its not exactly enough time to set up road blocks, spike strips, or even decide whether to call it off earlier.

If a car goes flying through a booze bus, I want them caught, as more than likely they are drunk (or worse) and are bound to kill someone.


I wonder if the cops hadnt called it off, and were right up his bum with the lights and sirens, whether its safer? You can see and hear the lights and sirens from quite a distance, and if the public can see a chase going on, they might be reluctant to pull out of intersections without looking.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

There was i high speed chase in Adelaide a while back involving a HSV that had this option. Police refused to shut the vehicle down due to 'safety' reason's.. Loss of power steering??.. Oh the nancy world we live in.. :

Have the device sound a warning signal in the car when the device has been activated that gives the driver 15 seconds warning prior to the engine stopping, easy.

Also a non power steering car will still steer with no engine power, it will just be heavy. Also vac assist brakes will still be operating as there will still be enough vacuum for a couple of brake applications so no issue there.

[ch33z1l]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Make it law that all vehicles and fitted with a combined satellite tracking/engine kill device which is monitored by police control. , attempting traffic stop.

Not that I disagree with something like this, but rather stating some issues that might arise.

Would it integrate with an older model vehicle well and who pays? I can't see a GPS tracking system as being affordable, especially to some of the lower income earners?

And how long before the power is abused? I'll use an example here: In SA, a motion was passed which allowed police to DNA test motorists with prior convictions. Now, I have had a friend who was riding a scooter without a helmet, and was requested by police to provide a DNA test. Admittedly, he did give them some lip beforehand, but is just an example where laws are often misused?

This is not an insult to all police, as the majority I have come across are respectful when you show them respect.

[flappist]

With reference to gecko's computer aided gizmo (by the way QLD is VKR )

Such a device is extremely dangerous for the following reasons:

1) Disabling the engine will also disable the brakes and power steering.
2) This system will be run by public servants so they WILL disable the wrong vehicle on a fairly regular basis hopefully not halfway across a rail crossing or on a blind corner. Fake number plates could be a bit of an oops.
3) Any system like this can be hijacked and a forward planning crim could leave a trail of dead cars behind him blocking pursuing police.
4) Do police vehicle have such a system?
5) GPS jammers are available NOW for about $20. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...ammer&gs_rfai=
6) It is illegal right now to fit NO2, mod a vehicle so as it no longer complies with emmissions, remove a cat conv, drive unregistered, drive unlicensed, drive drunk etc. etc. etc. Does any of this actually happen? Those who would comply with this law are not the ones who need it.
7) What happens when the GPS system fails (as it does on the odd occasion) does everything just stop.

Now I am not for or against pursuits per se but there has to be some reality involved.
The heinous crime of exceeding a speed limit by 30km/h is NOT a reason to further endanger life.

Unfortunately Australian legislation has some pretty warped values.

If you commit murder the government will spend a lot of resourses chasing you but if you get away overseas you are fairly safe.
If, on the other hand, you steal MONEY from the government they will hunt you until hell freezes over.

[chevypower]

No they shouldn't stop high speed pursuits. World's Wildest Police Videos would get pretty boring!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by ch33z1l

Not that I disagree with something like this, but rather stating some issues that might arise.

Would it integrate with an older model vehicle well and who pays? I can't see a GPS tracking system as being affordable, especially to some of the lower income earners?

And how long before the power is abused? I'll use an example here: In SA, a motion was passed which allowed police to DNA test motorists with prior convictions. Now, I have had a friend who was riding a scooter without a helmet, and was requested by police to provide a DNA test. Admittedly, he did give them some lip beforehand, but is just an example where laws are often misused?

This is not an insult to all police, as the majority I have come across are respectful when you show them respect.

The cost could be funded through increased fines for speeding at speeds greater than 15 km/h over the limit, user pay system. Considering the cost of satellite tracking devices now, unit cost is likely to be quite reasonable.

As for misuse, this is an issue that would require clear and appropriate legislation, could be done.

Any way, I am not going to try and sell the idea here, better things to do with my time. I just do not want one option removed from the police without it being replaced with a better one. I think more people need to spend less time criticising the cops and more time coming up with solutions.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Thanks for finding that information.

When you review the 150 deaths since 1990 as a result of police pursuits and compare that with the number of deaths since 1990 in the national road toll, the perspective changes.

In the 1990-2008 time period there were 34,342 deaths according to government stats. Of these only 150 were as result of police chases, that is only 0.0043% of the entire road toll over that time period.

What we do not know, is how many of all the police chases over that time period resulted in apprehension of the offender and a death prevented? I would suggest it is likely to be considerably more than 150. Also how many illegal acts were prevented in the knowledge that police will pursue and apprehend by the less committed thrill seekers out there? This number is likely to be massive, each one a potential fatal accident prevented.

My point, do not remove police rights to enforce law without safer and more effective mechanisms in place.

I agree, and I would not want to remove the rights of the police to stop these idiots, I just think in this day and age with the technology available that these situations in question could be vastly reduced if not eradicated. The technology you mentioned in a previous post is available today and has been for quite some time, and besides the bean counters and the civil libertarians I can see no reason why it cannot be utilised. As for the stats I do understand where you are coming from, but I was shocked that they were as high as 150, and personally I could not live with myself if I said “that’s not so bad after all” and just accept the fact that a few broken eggs is acceptable, don’t get me wrong I am not saying you or anyone else are happy with the situation, I am just saying that I believe that a lot more can be done other than saying, as others have, “just carry on doing what you’re doing”......

I hope the above makes sence to someone other than me, i am not very good at making my feelings known through a keyboard....

[XR Martin]

"150 deaths as a result of police pursuits"
Hold on, remember the police arnt chasing random citizens for fun, they are chasing criminals. Criminals who have decided that they no longer care about anyone else, and will do anything to try and get away.
Police are the ones thinking of other people, as they want to stop these maniacs from hurting others, yet the police are the ones copping the flak. What a great society we live in.

It would be more appropriate to say "150 deaths as a result of criminals running from the law" Police arnt to blame at all, the deaths would have never occured without the criminals initiating the chase.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

With reference to gecko's computer aided gizmo (by the way QLD is VKR )

Such a device is extremely dangerous for the following reasons:

1) Disabling the engine will also disable the brakes and power steering.

No they will not, as I previously stated steering will still work while the car is moving forward. Try it out, go on the road, travel at speed and turn your engine off. The steering becomes heavy but still steers and there is more than enough vacuum to pull it up well. In fact as long as the clutch is engaged and the trans is in gear, the engine is till being turned over and therefore still creating vaccuum. As the engine is still turning over, so is the power steering pump so the steering still works. This is proven by all the BA-BF Boss owners that have had their engine stall at highway speeds, have not heard of any of them dying in a big fiery crash.

2) This system will be run by public servants so the WILL disable the wrong vehicle on a fairly regular basis hopefully not halfway across a rail crossing or on a blind corner. Fake number plates could be a bit of an oops.

Hence my stipulation for there being a visual contact with police to confirm description. Notice in my transcript the police did not give the description, control did (this would be recorded on the satellite system vehicle ID). That is a safe guard to ensure correct vehicle operation.

3) Any system like this can be hijacked and a forward planning crim could leave a trail of dead cars behind him blocking pursuing police.

And the US missile control system can be too, IT security is around to deal with this. If it was to happen, well call off the pursuit as some here are suggesting, whats the difference?

4

) Do police vehicle have such a system?

'
Not sure but considering we have sat tracking, I am sure they could too.

5) GPS jammers are available NOW for about $20. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...ammer&gs_rfai=

Make them illegal and removed from the market, what legal reason do you require one?

6) It is illegal right now to fit NO2, mod a vehicle so as it no longer complies with emmissions, remobe a cat conv, drive unregistered, drive unlicensed, drive drunk etc. etc. etc. Does any of this actually happen? Those who would comply with this law are not the ones who need it.

Make it a requirement before a date in a reasonable space of time that it be fitted or the vehicle is not able to have registration renewed. As for the unregistered vehicles that are being driven, no idea. Perhaps drive an unregistered vehicle and get caught you have 3 months to register it or lose it (do not know and do not care, why do I have to come up with all the answers)

7) What happens when the GPS system fails (as it does on the odd occasion) does every thing just stop.

It is a system that defaults to car enabled and requires a signal from the system to disable, hence not problem. It has no more chance to accidentally disable your car than your normal engine immobiliser that all cars are fitted with.

Now I am not for or against pursuits per se but there has to be some reality involved.
The heinous crime of exceeding a speed limit by 30km/h is NOT a reason to further endanger life.

90 in a 60 zone is endangering lives, like it or not. You find me one emergency services worker or advanced driving instructor that disagrees and I will shut up about it.

Honestly Tony, if you had read my idea properly, gave it more than cursory consideration before posting, you would not have asked half your questions.

By the way, oops on the VKI thing, that is the west aussie coming out in me.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

I agree, and I would not want to remove the rights of the police to stop these idiots, I just think in this day and age with the technology available that these situations in question could be vastly reduced if not eradicated. The technology you mentioned in a previous post is available today and has been for quite some time, and besides the bean counters and the civil libertarians I can see no reason why it cannot be utilised. As for the stats I do understand where you are coming from, but I was shocked that they were as high as 150, and personally I could not live with myself if I said “that’s not so bad after all” and just accept the fact that a few broken eggs is acceptable, don’t get me wrong I am not saying you or anyone else are happy with the situation, I am just saying that I believe that a lot more can be done other than saying, as others have, “just carry on doing what you’re doing”......

I hope the above makes sence to someone other than me, i am not very good at making my feelings known through a keyboard....

Very good points and although I look at it slightly differently, we have much the same attitude.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Poll = Should people stop stealing cars and trying to get away? Yes..

[Tucool]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

Dont chase them.. Shoot the bastard's..

Ditto out:

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by GT0132

Depends on the severity of the crime. If the chasee is a highly dangerous armed robber, psycopathic murderer wanted in all 8 states and territories then by all means chase him but if he's a simply a petty car thief or shoplifter then maybe not

How do you determine which category they fall in before you get them stopped?

[blkvt8]

im glad we all agree on one major issue whitch is the police are not to blame they are just doing there job to the best of there abbility

[Uncle Raggy]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

Dont chase them.. Shoot the bastard's..

Yep, I'll back that!