Are we getting dumber?? De skilling of the automotive industry

[MarkAW]

The industry, and by that I mean the vehicle and component manufacturers have dumbed down the required skills for the the trade of motor mechanic.

Today skills seem to be lacking in genuine fault analysis and the ability to repair componentry.

My background - apprenticeship from 1976 to 1980 working on light to heavy vehicles plus light to medium plant (cherry pickers/small dozers, FELs etc) back to school in 1986 for Mech Engineering Deg.

As an apprentice and tradesman, electrical componentry such as alternators, wiper motors, or carburettors were all overhauled, not thrown out. I understand the nature of business, that these days its cheaper to fit a new component than stuff around overhauling a damaged one, but where is the skill. The skill is lost and to some extent so is the understanding of how it actually works. Looking at an image of the insides of a component to show how it works is nothing compared to taking it apart the correct way, overhauling and reassembly. Modern components just dont allow that. If you don't understand how it works, how can you possibly fault analyse a problem.

[SilentDave]

The WA education minister hit the nail on the head a few years ago by saying that the school kids these days can just Google the answer.

I'm a baker and have been for the 19 odd years and was taught the old fashioned way in a small town bakery with wood fired oven and everything was hand moulded, my first day at TAFE was fun because I had to learn all the equipment that the kids used then and even then they still had trouble.
Back to the OP I do think that there has been a de skilling as most cars these days are plug into the computer and change the oil/filters and kick the tires, same as in the baking industry and I am sure in a lot more industries have the same problem, I have seen a lot of good tradesman pack up and head to where the money is, in the mines.

Since I brought my own shop I have tried numerous kids/adults and paid them well(1st yr apprentice were being paid $500-600/38hr week) and the last couple I had were quite good until the partying behavior started and they became lazy or just didn't turn up.
But then again while there may be idiot staff there are just as many stupid customers.

[robbyg]

Some of the apprentices that i have seen over the last few years seem to not want to get there hands dirty or get out of bed before 10am, most of em tell me they only applied for the job as a fill in for something better down the track, higher wages, less physical work and so on, most do leave after doing there time, not all the young blokes though have a 1st year now, sheetmetal worker, schooling not that good but has heeps of common sense and willing to learn and have a go, as said earliar the goal posts have moved, years ago, in the seventies, an apprenticeship in any trade was the way to go, now i think the education system leans towards further education to put students into more higher recognised employment, my son works in the sydney cbd doing IT, office conditions, normal hours, gets paid the same as me a tradesman of 35 years, he turns 22 shortly, i think thats the way its heading.

[302 XC]

a first year apprentice i trained years ago was on (from memory)about $5 an hour
his mate was a cleaner at the time , same age getting $15 an hour
for the first 3 years the apprentice had to work 2 jobs to try and survive
but once the apprentice had finished his time his hourly rate was real good (well beyond $25+++ an hour)
and his mate was still getting $15 an hour cleaning
short term pain long term gain
when i was younger i was told to get a trade, after you get that do what u wish
you have the trade to fall back on
but with todays society of "gotta get to the top NOW"
its all different
i wonder really how many middle/high management people in trades actually trained in the field ???
kinda like the blind leading the blind

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Dealerships are only interested in the money. Every job is timed and if your too slow then your out the door. Even if that means hiring people that cut corners etc. There is no time to teach the apprentices so they do 4 years spinning filters and selling throttle body cleans to boost there wage.

I'll chuck in my two cents worth, I'm a current first year apprentice at a Honda dealership, which has the busiest service department nation wide, with our current workshop manager its all about getting the job done quickly to get the next car in, you take too long, you get your **** handed to you, hell its even gotten to a stage where we arent allowed to talk to each other anymore because of "productivity loss", we're like battery hens, our day is just SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE and maybe a MAJOR SERVICE.

They also have a habit of using people like me and other naive apprentices as cheap labour, then trying to **** you off before the end of your probation period, what they where doing to me was making me clean up all the time, most days not even getting to touch a car at all, cleaning anything and if I had done everything, they'd find a mundane task for me to do, like for example vacuum the car hoists. Just recently, I'd found out what they where doing was making me clean up all the time, then tell the dealer principle that I wasn't enthusiastic about the job, having meetings between them without getting me involved so they could sack me before my probation ended.

I found out about it and rang up JobWatch and they told me they where in serious breach of their contract and said I have a very good case against them in court if they dismiss me, plus that they have to compensate me for my time working as a cleaner and pay me the correct rate for what a cleaner of my age would get paid. That changed their tune, now I only clean up in the morning, then get assigned to a mechanic to work with for the rest of the day. One of the mechanics said I didn't look enthusiastic about my job because I didn't have any tools, so I went out and bought just over $3000 worth of tools the other day.

Its a two way street, people like me who ditched going to uni to do IT to follow their new passion and take the crappy pay, put up with ******* at TAFE and in the workplace get screwed over by their employers, used and abused. I wake up at 6AM every morning, drive 40 minutes to work, clean up the workshop and take all kinds of crap for $7 an hour, to be told I'm not enthusiastic about my job? I take that as an insult, If I wasn't enthusiastic, I'd tell them to take their $7 an hour and shove it.

Originally Posted by WiggyMK2

I was an apprentice mechanic and quit about 6 months ago. I believe that the trade is serverely watered down from what it seems to have used to be. Training in tradeschool was fairly informative but working in the trade I learnt very little.

In thelarge dealership where I worked, we were given as little training as possible and then put in the deep end, expected to work by ourselves and meet efficiency targets right off the bat. This, coupled with the sub $7 an hour led me to quit and study something more stimulating to the brain. The ammount of knowledge I had gained on cars was mostly discovered by trial and error by myself.

I don't believe that the people becoming mechanics are dumber, more that the training is sub-standard and their is no incentive to stay and complete the apprenticeship, when you can earn more at macca's.

Thats my 2c,

Wiggy

Agreed, I've learnt more in a week I've done at TAFE, filling in booklets compared to what I've learnt at 4 months at my dealership. So far, the only thing work has taught me is how to use a mop, wash dishes and use the dishwasher now.

Originally Posted by 302 XC

he used to get them to do the laimest jobs over and over
he wasnt interested in " advancing" their skills (just cheap rates)
when their term was finished they moved on

Thats what I'm up to my neck in.

Originally Posted by MarkAW

As an apprentice and tradesman, electrical componentry such as alternators, wiper motors, or carburettors were all overhauled, not thrown out. I understand the nature of business, that these days its cheaper to fit a new component than stuff around overhauling a damaged one, but where is the skill. The skill is lost and to some extent so is the understanding of how it actually works.

Same thing goes on in my dealership, we have a problem with a few Thailand Civics that come off the production line, anyways we know its down to the wrong bearing used when they put them together, it causes a slight knock at idle, instead of pulling down the engine and changing the bearing, we just order in a complete new bottom end and just use the same head, rather than replacing the bearing.

Also, we have "express servicing" in which we have to WITHIN AN HOUR have the car:

Serviced (minor service, so oil changed, etc)

Then it goes to our car washers to:

Wash
Chammy
Vacuum

and we get in serious **** if we cause delays by "working too slow", you can't say rushing us along all the time won't cause mistakes, one guy just got fired yesterday, they made him work in express all the time, anyways it got to a stage where he was rushing along all the time he forgot to tighten sump bolts on a few occasions and recently, left caliper bolts undone. You pay $110 an hour at our dealership for the privelage.

We're averaging 47-50 cars a day through our workshop.

[robbyg]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

a first year apprentice i trained years ago was on (from memory)about $5 an hour
his mate was a cleaner at the time , same age getting $15 an hour
for the first 3 years the apprentice had to work 2 jobs to try and survive
but once the apprentice had finished his time his hourly rate was real good (well beyond $25+++ an hour)
and his mate was still getting $15 an hour cleaning
short term pain long term gain
when i was younger i was told to get a trade, after you get that do what u wish
you have the trade to fall back on
but with todays society of "gotta get to the top NOW"
its all different
i wonder really how many middle/high management people in trades actually trained in the field ???
kinda like the blind leading the blind

Yeh thats true mate you summed it up well on all them issues, especially the blind leading the blind one, so called engineers with the common sense of a house brick

[KURS3D]

i'll agree here
i'm an apprentice fixing taxi's and me and my foreman have had this discussion many times and come to the conclusion that yes the world is getting dumber
but yes it is also the apprentice's job to learn
however in my case i've only met 3 really good mechanics
but at tafe the teachers were really lax about teaching and attendence and most of it was theory and no practical and they didn't make sure we understood what they were saying cause at lunch we'd go out and eat and the guys would ask what he was going on about, cause they dont show us the component and how things work
we have to learn for ourselves
but i had a boss once who told me to always ask a question if i didn't know something but everytime i asked a question he yelled at me to just get the job done and F##K off
conclusion 1. the youth of today are getting dumber
2. teachers need to teach better
3. some mechanics need to be more understanding of apprentices and the fact that school doesn't teach us how to use our brain and think for ourselve's so we turn out to be Sh#t apprentice's

[snappy]

Well i cant speak for the automotive industry but as far as plasterers go i have no doubt about it .
Ive worked with young fella's that cant trowell by hand they have to use a trowelling box which is all fine and dandy on a new home just wait till you have to do a reno . No one gets taught ornamental work anymore and if they do its just tear it down put some new stuff up . There's no getting taught how to do a reverse mould of the usally existing rare cornice/roses and patching or matching it up.
There around 50 plasterers contracting from the same company as me and theres only me and one other fella that can do ornamental and he is a year or two of retireing.
Its all get in get out money money money

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by KURS3D

i'll agree here
i'm an apprentice fixing taxi's and me and my foreman have had this discussion many times and come to the conclusion that yes the world is getting dumber
but yes it is also the apprentice's job to learn
however in my case i've only met 3 really good mechanics
but at tafe the teachers were really lax about teaching and attendence and most of it was theory and no practical and they didn't make sure we understood what they were saying cause at lunch we'd go out and eat and the guys would ask what he was going on about, cause they dont show us the component and how things work
we have to learn for ourselves
but i had a boss once who told me to always ask a question if i didn't know something but everytime i asked a question he yelled at me to just get the job done and F##K off
conclusion 1. the youth of today are getting dumber
2. teachers need to teach better
3. some mechanics need to be more understanding of apprentices and the fact that school doesn't teach us how to use our brain and think for ourselve's so we turn out to be Sh#t apprentice's

Obviously you have had no tertiary education experience.

Now that your out of little people's school you need to learn that in the real world nobody gives a rats **** wheather you learn anything or not. You won't get lecturers pushing you to achieve - this is your life - get up off your **** and learn or get out of the way and let somebody else in who needs and wants an education. This is how its been for the last 30 plus years get over it.

[aussie muscle]

if you ever watch 'The Garage', Jock seems to have to go through quite a few workers to find one that'll actually bother to work and not muck around during work hours.

[Sizey]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Quite simply, the trade pays poorly, therefore attracts people who aren't as clever or as ambitious as possible. It was the pay and conditions that saw me turf the industry.

Pay peanuts = get monkeys.
When an entry-level IT job pays the same as a decent, qual mechanic position, you know something's going wrong.

Its not just pay, look at the level of schooling.
Some kids are unable to read, write or add up anything in their heads.
Then look at our social "ills" as it were, the percentage of young people drinking till they puke and are confirmed alcoholics, plus the drug epidemic of popping pills etc is quite common.

Its not just a skills shortage, but a shortage of intelligence
Im not putting all youngens in that category, but its apparent that a lot (?) appear not interested in bettering themselves.

Now now now.......I am a teenager and an apprentice. I am really sick and tired of us youngins getting slammed. Now this quoting about mechanical technitians being 'stupid; if you will takes the cake! Tone down the offensive comments everyone because not all teens are like this and not all mechanics or apprentices are like this either!

Back on topic. Trade schools receive not halfd as much funding as they need however training has changed because vehicles have changed. Yes machinery and tools have been decommisioned but new tools and equipment have been brought in to compat the new vehicles.

For example: My trade school no longer teaches welding. Reason, I have never welded on a vehicle to this date. Back in earlier days this was taught but things like vehicle emmisions and programming were not as it was not needed nor was it advantagas to teach.

[SEZ213]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here; having done a uni research article on this exact same thing.

Apprentices ARE cheap labour. Before any one starts to complain that all they do is clean, when I was younger - that WAS your first year.

You had to prove that you could complete mundane tasks before the owner would let you get under the bonnet of a car - safety was the concern here, not profit. On top of that, you learnt about housekeeping - a clean working environment.

It's not that we're actually getting dumber; it's that technology is taking over. As a result we aren't using parts of our brain required to do the more intelligent tasks.

The introduction of chips in cars, electronic this, electronic that, are starting the make mechanics look redundant. Anybody can plug a machine into the car and tell you what you need to make it better. You don't need a qualification to do that, and you don't even need a brain, because the machine is telling you what to do!

My only concern is - what if the machine got it wrong?

I agree wholeheartedly that kids hearts just aren't in it anymore. We don't have those brilliant ideas that we used to, and it's a sad fact that we've become, 'I want it now' focused. A hand which has been led by technology.

Entry level IT vs. a trade paying 7 bucks an hour? Nine times out of ten, people will pick the IT, it's 15 bucks an hour.

I'm by no means saying that all mechanics are now bad mechanics, there's some great ones out there, unfortunately there's also some dodgy ones (and I'm pretty sure I've seen most of them - they have a worse name amongst women than anyone else I know).

Dealerships have a focus on 'in and out service' because they have such high overheads and when the difference between a major service at a dealership and a major service at an owner operator business differs by over $400 - there is a problem; especially for a Nissan Pulsar.

When I asked a mechanic at a dealership about getting my airbag tested (the manual tells me I should after 10 years - I don't want it exploding in my face)...he tells me it's not necessary. They can make sure the stitching is still on it (it'll cost me 50 bucks though). Buddy, I can see myself that the stitching is still on it - I want to make sure I'M SAFE!

Now as for the comments about the 'social ills' - I actually agree, completely. The government has a lot to answer for with regard to education. I am resisting the urge to make comment on some of the responses here particularly about not being 'stupid'. It's not that they're stupid - it's that they don't listen, and therefore cannot learn.

As an aside, I need to find a decent mechanic in Brisbane...can anyone help?

[302 XC]

not sure if this is current with todays "tafe "courses
but when i was doin night schooling the teachers had to do so many hours a year in the field(whatever they are training) to keep up with the times
would this be current today ???
what really annoyed me about some of the so called expert teachers was if they didnt know something,and you knew something they didnt, they didnt want to know about it
i really upset a tafe teacher because he told the class i was in that you couldnt cut steel no thicker than 25mm with LPG !!!
when i corrected him his answer was
"oh ive never done it and never seen it done so it doesnt happen"
i laughed so hard
i was cutting 250mm steel with LPG at work fairly freqeunt
he didnt like me after that and nearlly failed me because of "my attitude "towards him
yet book work was 100 %
as above
yes you are right BUT in the broad spectrum you arent really a mechanic as such if you cant trouble shot a problem
why are they called technicans not mechanics
mite as well call the parts replacers
when i went to addition schooling i paid for it and wasnt cheap

[Dwainz]

I can relate to this -

I was set on becoming a Mechanic up until year 10 or so when I realised I could get twice the money as a programmer.

So I did four years at uni - which included paid work experience with a well-known IT company - and ended up with qualification, work experience, and more money in my pocket than a final year apprentice. I ended up getting a graduate position with said IT company, earning more money than my old man.

A huge factor in me not becoming a Mechanic was the money. Consequently I'm in a job that I hate, and don't know enough about the mechanical aspect of cars than I would like to - beyond basic services, I still need to enlist Dad's help for things like swapping out the clutch in my XD (Although I did diagnose a faulty reg/rec on my bike a little while ago, was stoked as!)

So do I have more money? Yes. Am I as happy with my career choices? No.

Having said that I've had a few ex-apprentice apprentices who got sick of the assembly-line nature of the dealerships they were working in, and not learning any real skills. One of them is now an Electrical H&S auditor on about twice the average mechanic's wage.

[Wretched]

I can't comment from an automotive industry point of view.

However within the IT industry it's either up skill or get left behind. I'd imagine this would be across many industries. In IT technologies change so often, it just about each day there is a new product that we need to know about. I am an engineer with two degrees and a bunch of certifications and it is on going. At the moment I am being pressured to complete two more in the space of a month as a client has introduced this new technology into their environment.
There are a lot of "lay abouts" in our industry, they don't last long, too many come in thinking it is easy money with an entry level job service desk job and never get past that. They think it is cushy until they realise that anything past that isn't 9-5 each day but can be 7am - whenever and includes weekends, public holidays, etc.

Which leads me onto the next point, we're not getting dumber at all, I think what is happening is with the changes in technology in all industries, it has enabled processes to be streamlined. In cars the amount of software and electronics has removed the need to troubleshoot the basic issues, of course there is always going to be complex problems but that requires a specialist in that area.

The problems I see here are the younger generations that want everything without wanting to work for it. They're not committed to hard work and always look for the easy way out. Of course this doesn't apply to all.

People also need to realise, with the changes in technology brings about a requirement to up skill. It is up to the individual to do this should they want to survive in their chosen industry.

[ZA-289]

The industry dosn't atract intelligent people, because intelligent people know you can more money in every other trade other then hairdressing.

Myself included, I lasted 6 moths as a qualified mech.

[Jason[98.EL]]

My step father is a mechanic and has said many of times that an apprentice these days are really only a mechanical fitter ie they can only fit parts not repair them they dont get tought the old school ways anymore

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Jason[98.EL]

My step father is a mechanic and has said many of times that an apprentice these days are really only a mechanical fitter ie they can only fit parts not repair them they dont get tought the old school ways anymore

Yeah I think nail on head there but only as a consequence of technological progression in certain respects as others have alluded to.

My brother is an electronics technician - he normally repairs tv / stereo's / VCR etc. etc...but now he says (especially with flat screen technology) components are throw away. As a consequence he merely plugs in new componentry if it is needed at all.

Cars of recent years have become appliances with a finite lifespan and parts / componentry are far too complex for even the average dealership to warrant the expense of repairing. Therefore as a natural progression technology and training changes.

When I was an apprentice if you did not know how to braise / solder / weld / panelbeat / machine (lathe or brake lathe), woodwork or even drive competently you'd be out of a job pretty quickly.

[pottery beige]

I work in the mines and i'm seeing plenty of whipper snipper mechanic's etc being employed as fitters... Even non trades being employed as 'mechanical technicians'.. The amount of really thick ****s i've came across is frustrating and embarassing to my trade.......

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

plenty of whipper snipper mechanic's

I work for Honda, its basically a whipper snipper with 4 cylinders and VTEC lol.

[macca13]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

I work in the mines and i'm seeing plenty of whipper snipper mechanic's etc being employed as fitters... Even non trades being employed as 'mechanical technicians'.. The amount of really thick ****s i've came across is frustrating and embarassing to my trade.......

Tell me about it I've gone from giving out jobs and answering a question every now and then to checking almost every step of the way to make sure the gear goes out in a workable state. Thats the worst thing about the mining boom years ago you had to actually be a ******* good fitter to keep a job now as long as you can breath and have 2 shifters you get a job.
As for the OP apprentices are pushed through the system as quick as possible. Most workshops treat them like another worker instead of 'training' them by giving them in depth jobs with good tradesmen. Mind you I spent the first 2 months of my apprenticeship filing bits of flat metal even flater (like 1 or 2 thousands of an inch) if you had enough you quit before the indentures where signed. If you survived that we got to rebuild an engine but we still had to stop work 30mins early and sweep the floors. Mind you I've had a couple of apprentices that I ended up just giving simple jobs to do because they would not listen or wouldn't stay on a job until it is finished but I've also worked with a few that I would hire again anytime.

[v gate]

Im a rigger/crane driver and for the last 4 or 5 years have seen that many dumb ***** its not funny. You wouldnt let these clowns pick up your lunch from the shop let alone a load. At the moment im working with 2 idiots with more tickets than a train conducter and i have just about lost my voice and marbles. I cant even trust them with the simplest lifts.
Macca13 i know what your talking about but the worst ones are the fitters in construction. To work with a mechie fitter that knows his **** is a pleasure but when your telling him what comes next boggles your mind. Then we got pipies that cant read iso,s. I have even worked with trade assistants that new more than the fitter or rigger.

In the last 2 weeks we have had 2 close calls.
1. the idiot got 1.5 tonne of steel hung up on a scaffold and was completly oblivious to it.
2. the other idiot had a load go past him while he was gas baggin by 3 meters (at about 5 meters was welder with his head in the bucket)

I blame the system that allows these people to further themselves without proper knowledge or teaching.
Its a shame simply because if they were shown the the correct way in the first place then we wouldnt be here moaning about it and i wouldnt be calling them idiots

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by macca13

Mind you I spent the first 2 months of my apprenticeship filing bits of flat metal even flater (like 1 or 2 thousands of an inch) if you had enough you quit before the indentures where signed. If you survived that we got to rebuild an engine but we still had to stop work 30mins early and sweep the floors.

Sounds like you had a "government" job (Railways, Sydney Water, Buses or similar). I had exactly the same start, 9 months in an apprentice training centre to learn the very basic skills of the trade - filing and fitting, machining with lathes, pedestall drills, mills and grinders and the best one was household wiring. Yep how to wire up your house for GPO's and batten fixtures. I was with the old Sydney County Council (now EnergyAustralia), 5 motor mech apprentices and 40 electrical fitter mechanics (industrial electricians). We all did the same first nine months. The skills I learnt then whilst I thought were rubbish at the time have stayed with me and been invaluable later in life.

[macca13]

Sorry MarkAW did my time at Mount Isa Mines but they used the government scheme as a base. 6 months just learning basics and weeding out no hopers. But by 3rd year I was running around underground by myself doing breakdowns and 4th year they gave us a 1st year to play with. As they put it the last skill you need as a tradesman is to be able to 'impart your knowledge' which is a skill a lot of tradesman never develop, that could explain the lack of skills out there.

[Auturbo6]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

if you ever watch 'The Garage', Jock seems to have to go through quite a few workers to find one that'll actually bother to work and not muck around during work hours.

Kurst is my apprentise. Ive seen and babysat many apprentices and (so called) tradespeople over my time. And finally ive found someone that is not only intellegent, on all levels, but also capable of carriering out any operation that is thrown at him, large or small, with no fuss and exelent customer relation skills too boot.
I feel that this thread should read, and its a sad fact: Are all the intellegent trades people leaving to persue jobs with real prospects. Believe me, its in the back of my mind to leave at all times, earn great instead of good money doing something that will not only challenge one physically but also mentally.
As modern society progresses, the dumb will more and more be left the menial tasks, wheras those that possess intellegence and common sence will progress and make something of their lives. (Of course their will always be exeptions)
P.S. Intellegence does not mean common sence. A mate of mine in high school was HIGHLY intelligent, but give him a tool box and it would take him 2 hours to change a set of brake pads. However i was told by someone that everyone has a talent, no matter what it may be, and must be respected for it. Im sceptical....... Later.............