A Badge Engineered XR8?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by kennyboy

Just thinking maybe they can't get the V8s to cover more sales - as everyone seems to be saying, they'd sell more if there was an XR8! It could also be they don't want to lose sales of I6 to the V8 - keeping ausiies in jobs?

They weren't losing anything while the XR8 was around. It seems the Ute is hurting the most without an XR8, but I've seen a few GS ute's running around lately. So they're not doing that poorly.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by flappist

And how many XR6 and XR6Ts in the same time?

FPV is a boutique marque geared up for low volume production and V8s are now a low volume item.....

Your missing the point... They sold alot more XR8's then they sold 5.4 FPV based product, therefore a FG XR8 5.0 at the right money without the extra FPV trinkets like 19's, data dots, starter button, stripes, badging and the other few small items would have made more sense... $44 - $45 kay Retail for the Ute or $50 - $51 Retail for the Sedan.. They could have still done the GS with some trinkets, and sold double if not triple the V8s they are planning to sell now with the current predicament.

It all helps cover that 40 million spend on miami doesn't it?

If I was running the place id have the following.

FG XR8 5.0 L SC 310 kw 18's Standard XR Trim.
FG GS 5.0 L SC 320 kw 19's, 4 pot brembos, stripes, dual zone / premium sound. XR body kit.
FG GT 5.0 L SC 335 kw, Curren FPV kit, stripes, 6 pot brembos, GT-P Seats etc etc. Option of Luxury pack with different GT-E alloys and the small spoiler...

The higher end does not sell, eg. GT-P and GT-E, so forget those models altogether and just give people option packs on the standard GT.. Then we would have some exclusitivity and rareness on the GT's!!

[vztrt]

Maybe just put the 50th Anniversary interior in the GS and have the GT with the touch screen for FG2.

Should sort out the cheap interior perception.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Your missing the point... They sold alot more XR8's then they sold 5.4 FPV based product, therefore a FG XR8 5.0 at the right money without the extra FPV trinkets like 19's, data dots, starter button, stripes, badging and the other few small items would have made more sense... $44 - $45 kay Retail for the Ute or $50 - $51 Retail for the Sedan.. They could have still done the GS with some trinkets, and sold double if not triple the V8s they are planning to sell now with the current predicament.

It all helps cover that 40 million spend on miami doesn't it?

If I was running the place id have the following.

FG XR8 5.0 L SC 310 kw 18's Standard XR Trim.
FG GS 5.0 L SC 320 kw 19's, 4 pot brembos, stripes, dual zone / premium sound. XR body kit.
FG GT 5.0 L SC 335 kw, Curren FPV kit, stripes, 6 pot brembos, GT-P Seats etc etc. Option of Luxury pack with different GT-E alloys and the small spoiler...

The higher end does not sell, eg. GT-P and GT-E, so forget those models altogether and just give people option packs on the standard GT.. Then we would have some exclusitivity and rareness on the GT's!!

No it is you you does not actually get it.

XR8 is a FORD product not FPV so FORD would have to carry all the overhead of this "badge" model.
Every engine/running gear combination requires huge amounts of testing and development at great expense.

Right now FPV have 2 cars, 3 engines, 2 transmissions and 3 brake packages.

Your choices are:

1) Ute or sedan.
2) T6, V8 or identical V8 with limited boost.
3) T6060 or ZF
3) standard falcon brakes, single brembos or double brembos.

The rest is just bits of plastic and leather

FORD have 3 engines, 2 cars, 2 trans and 1 brake package.

A GT-E, GT-P or GT (with brembo upgrade) are exactly the same thing except for the bling.

So are an XT XR6 G6 and G6E.

For FORD to implement a completely different engine into their range would cost a fortune.
Would you buy an XR8 that cost MORE than the GS?
If you are so bloody desperate to own a XR8 then buy a GS and badge it yourself.

Of the other hand I suppose if there was a factory XT fitted with GT body kit, mags and red painted calipers for $30k THAT would sell well.........

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by flappist

Of the other hand I suppose if there was a factory XT fitted with GT body kit, mags and red painted calipers for $30k THAT would sell well.........

Without realising it you may be onto something there and the key word is 'OPTIONS'. As you would undoubtedly know I am a staunch supporter of the XR8 (and yes I have bought new previously) and it disappoints me that in a way, Ford have again turned their back on the V8 market and left that to FPV.

There are numerous scenarios where an XR8 would be more appropriate and desirable to some people than an FPV product. Not everybody wants an FPV.

Having the GS in the lineup makes sense BUT the XR8 should be alongside it. The way I see it is that XR8 is to Ford what SS is to Holden and GS is to FPV what Clubsport is to HSV - or at least that is how I would stagger the lineup if it were up to me. Direct competitors for the rival and more OPTIONS.

At the moment I cannot afford a new FPV - no ifs, buts or maybes. I could not stomach paying extra for one when I would modify it anyway. I could however afford an XR8 along with insuring it and still have change to modify it if I wanted to, and at the moment if I were buying another car I would downsize from the 2 I have now to 1 for me and mrs b2tf and it would likely be a used FG XR8. Why? Because I love the XR8 brand, I love the cars and as per the above I dont want to shell out all my hard earned on a car that, under the skin is essentially the same minus the frigging badge.

[GTP-03]

I still think Ford should have an XR8 and an XR8GS, sell the base model xr8 bog standard, and option it up to a GS for it to be called GS, leave the GT GTP F6 TO FPV/
The XR8 should have the supercharged 5.0 litre, but be available as just a v8 base model with no luxuries but full safety features, but built down to a budget eg no dual zone, no colour screen no aircon, no mp3, cheap radio etc.
I for one would buy it but maybe just option for the aircon!

[RAPID_BA]

I think this topic makes plenty of sence.

Why not grab a GS, put xr6 interior in it, put xr6 rims on it, stick a more restrictive exhaust on it to clog up a few kw, wipe a few $thousand off the price and call it a xr8? Grab a few of the old xr8 badges from the ford bin and away we go.

[CANFRY]

yeh makes more sence to me ^^^

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by flappist

No it is you you does not actually get it.

XR8 is a FORD product not FPV so FORD would have to carry all the overhead of this "badge" model.
Every engine/running gear combination requires huge amounts of testing and development at great expense.

Right now FPV have 2 cars, 3 engines, 2 transmissions and 3 brake packages.

Your choices are:

1) Ute or sedan.
2) T6, V8 or identical V8 with limited boost.
3) T6060 or ZF
3) standard falcon brakes, single brembos or double brembos.

The rest is just bits of plastic and leather

FORD have 3 engines, 2 cars, 2 trans and 1 brake package.

A GT-E, GT-P or GT (with brembo upgrade) are exactly the same thing except for the bling.

So are an XT XR6 G6 and G6E.

For FORD to implement a completely different engine into their range would cost a fortune.
Would you buy an XR8 that cost MORE than the GS?
If you are so bloody desperate to own a XR8 then buy a GS and badge it yourself.

Of the other hand I suppose if there was a factory XT fitted with GT body kit, mags and red painted calipers for $30k THAT would sell well.........

Would FPV not supply the engine for the V8?? as per what they did with the B Series cars?? :S Btw they have already done the testing, or atleast thats the news on the grape vine!!

I get it good and proper.. The V8 motor could be selling double what it is now with the XR8, but thats too hard for you to work out... The 40 million could be spread across an extra 1500 units a year, if not more as I think the new Supercharged V8 would sell better all day everyday then the 5.4 did.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I think this topic makes plenty of sence.

Why not grab a GS, put xr6 interior in it, put xr6 rims on it, stick a more restrictive exhaust on it to clog up a few kw, wipe a few $thousand off the price and call it a xr8? Grab a few of the old xr8 badges from the ford bin and away we go.

Exactly, some people here are too dumb to work that out though..

Theres still a market for XR8.. Holden prove that year after year with SS..

XR6 T sells nothing compared to what SS/SSV does, its not even a 3rd of their sales including ute and sedan...

[JC]

Buy a GS, and get some BF XR8 badges and stick them on. Swap your FPV badges for Ford ones, and there's your XR8

[Polyal]

Bingo....the xr8 formula is very simple. Sporty, powerful enough and at at right price. For all the flack the xr8 copped it still sold ok, mainly in part to what I believe was tradies with the ute.

I'm a solid believer in that the axing of the xr8, fairlane et al is squarely on Fords shoulders. You cannot expect the consumer to buy an inferior product, no matter how solid the engineering behind it is. The 5.4 GS did not set the scene on fire...it hung around like a bad smell.

I agree whole heartedly with Brent....but the XR8 should have an adaptation of the crate 5.0....nice and easy.

Also the engineering costs for the 5.0 is done on worst case, ie in GT guise, you don't need to "re engineer/comply" the GS on it's own.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Bingo....the xr8 formula is very simple. Sporty, powerful enough and at at right price. For all the flack the xr8 copped it still sold ok, mainly in part to what I believe was tradies with the ute.

I'm a solid believer in that the axing of the xr8, fairlane et al is squarely on Fords shoulders. You cannot expect the consumer to buy an inferior product, no matter how solid the engineering behind it is. The 5.4 GS did not set the scene on fire...it hung around like a bad smell.

I agree whole heartedly with Brent....but the XR8 should have an adaptation of the crate 5.0....nice and easy.

Also the engineering costs for the 5.0 is done on worst case, ie in GT guise, you don't need to "re engineer/comply" the GS on it's own.

The crate motor causes them extra drama, using the supercharged motor would be a cheaper option as far as engineering goes, it would only come down to a tune, all the adr / crash testing would be covered because it would be the same engine configuration as the GT.. Similiar to how they worked it on GT / GS...

At the end of the day it probably would have cost FPV an extra 3 - 4 million to setup another tune, test it and roll it out... 3 - 4 million isn't alot of dough if it gives you an extra 1500 sales a year.. This would have meant they would have been able to spread the R & D over more units probably helping the RRP on GS and possibly having kept GT at FG 315 pricing.

They will be lucky to sell 700 GS/GT's in the first year of production, over 3 years that 40,000,000 of engineering is going to cost them $19,047 per car!! Thats alot of coin to recover on each car considering what the cars cost them to manufacture, if they outlayed $43,000,000 R&D and included XR8 with a yearly sales figure of 2200 units including XR8, GS, GT then over the 3 years it would cost them $6,515 per unit.. Ofcourse these figures are rough and don't look at finance costs etc, but it shows you that the XR8 even though it would have had extra costs associated would have reduced the overall R&D per vehicle by a large amount. I doubt FPV will recover what they have outlayed on GS / GT alone.. The cars only got 3 years in it...

This would have also allowed an extra 1500 units for Ford a year, which helps them with their R&D costs and market share.. 1500 units doesnt sound like much but when you consider they may only be lucky to sell 30,000 units for the year including ute and sedan, it still equates to 5%...

Lets face it people who bought XR8's arent buying XR6 Turbos or FPV's, they are down at Holden buying SS's and SS V's.... If i was buying a new ute tomorrow it would be an AFM SS.... I don't want a Turbo, never have and never will, but its hard to justify $51 kay for a GS thats identical to my 32 kay XR6 bar the engine and gearbox...

[Polyal]

I understand the idea of using the sc version to spread costs, but IMO the segment actually does not want a sc for an entry level v8. Plus you can then pop the na version in other models within the ford range like Holden does. Anyway, perhaps we are just repeating what is in the "official" xr8 thread.

There is a good argument for both cases, but the current GS devalues the FPV brand, a lesser model on that's makes the situation even worse.

But you can never blame the consumers for manufacturers lack of foresight or product planning. It's not the 70s anymore.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man

Why? Just buy a GS.

Agreed

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Agreed

A GS is too dear for a base model V8...

Not everyone wants to spend 60 kay to get what they traditionally got in an XR8 for mid 40's..

Theres alot of customers that are limited due to lease constraints and other things, they all just go buy SS's now.. No wonder Holden's selling what they are atm.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

A GS is too dear for a base model V8...

Not everyone wants to spend 60 kay to get what they traditionally got in an XR8 for mid 40's..

Theres alot of customers that are limited due to lease constraints and other things, they all just go buy SS's now.. No wonder Holden's selling what they are atm.

That's right ss/calias are everywhere.

The 5.4 even made more power than the ss and the GM still sold well, it's a car that ticks the boxes for that segment at the right price.

Ford are on drugs if they think the xr6t can carry the load, it's proving to be an incorrect strategy (although there are many other factors in fords sales performance at the moment).

A V8 option in the falcon range won't save them, but it will sell more cars and make more money in the long term than the Miami vehicles.

[Brazen]

Where I live there are two Ford dealers within 75 km, the nearest FPV dealer is 5 hours away...

Bloody hell, I would have an XR8 in the showrooms tomorrow even if it was identical to the GS simply for better rural dealer coverage. Werent half of all XR8 utes sold were outside of metropolitan areas?

There are no way country boys could justify travelling that far to get a V8 ute when the local Holden shop on main street have 7 or 8 shiny brand new SS & SSV utes sitting there....

[flappist]

Ok for all the "experts" here a simple question.

A GS is a basic Falcon with the V8 added. It has no extra components over a XR6T (except for the $20 start button)

How could it possibly be made cheaper to become an XR8?

Now an observation.

Historically XR8 has been the "slow" XR. In every model since EB with the possible exception of AU3 an XR6 has been quicker.

Maybe Ford/FPV were trying to distance themselves from any perception of "all show no go"........

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ok for all the "experts" here a simple question.

A GS is a basic Falcon with the V8 added. It has no extra components over a XR6T (except for the $20 start button)

How could it possibly be made cheaper to become an XR8?

Now an observation.

Historically XR8 has been the "slow" XR. In every model since EB with the possible exception of AU3 an XR6 has been quicker.

Maybe Ford/FPV were trying to distance themselves from any perception of "all show no go"........

I wonder what they can do do differentiate it, I think thats the problem. GS is so bare bones, theres not a lot of fat to cut. having said that, having XR8 and GS priced similarly wouldnt be the end of the world, it would help to get a lot more V8s out to rural dealers who dont have a FPV presence.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I wonder what they can do do differentiate it, I think thats the problem. GS is so bare bones, theres not a lot of fat to cut. having said that, having XR8 and GS priced similarly wouldnt be the end of the world, it would help to get a lot more V8s out to rural dealers who dont have a FPV presence.

Actually the rural bit is a valid point although every dealer can get FPVs through the back door.

[nstg8a]

i agree with what others have said,

xr8 should be what gs is now

gs should have fpv kit, and at least xr50 style interior

gt should be the all singing all dancing top of the tree. no gtp, gte, but bring back proper options.

[Romulus]

Let us not forget what brought about GS model in FPV; it was a parts-bin run out model. FPV had a heap of 5.4's that weren't moving so they created a base model V8 FPV, which was able to be optioned up including Brembo brakes.

FPV can tell the public until the cows come home that it is not a XR8 - it is. FPV created a model which should not exist, however it does at the expense of XR8. Ford have been silly enough to sit on their hands regarding this and allowed FPV to paint them into a corner.

Both the XR6T and F6 can co-exist, so should the XR8 and GT. The GS has no place, it should not have been released as a FPV model. It's an overpriced XR8.

I have no idea on sales figures for the current S/C FPV but I have only seen one Vixen GT on the road in Perth, and yes, I spend a lot of time on the road. I doubt FPV will be around to celebrate a 10th anniversary GT if it maintains its current business model.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

A GS is too dear for a base model V8...

Not everyone wants to spend 60 kay to get what they traditionally got in an XR8 for mid 40's..

Theres alot of customers that are limited due to lease constraints and other things, they all just go buy SS's now.. No wonder Holden's selling what they are atm.

Holden sell to Holden customers.

Simple observation.

Other than the $150k++ W427 no HSV has gotten even close to FPV performance for over 5 years for more money.

Right now the slowest FPV is quicker than the fastest HSV (and $30k cheaper).

Why does HSV outsell FPV?

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ok for all the "experts" here a simple question.

A GS is a basic Falcon with the V8 added. It has no extra components over a XR6T (except for the $20 start button)

How could it possibly be made cheaper to become an XR8?

Now an observation.

Historically XR8 has been the "slow" XR. In every model since EB with the possible exception of AU3 an XR6 has been quicker.

Maybe Ford/FPV were trying to distance themselves from any perception of "all show no go"........

Did you not read my post... XR8 = More cars = cheaper R&D = cheaper retail pricing.

GS would have to have more standard features to differentiate it from the XR8, thats a no brainer... but its under equiped now for most even without the XR8... More standard features in the GS, and more features in the GT and **** GT-P / GT-E off... They would sell more cars and have more money tothrow on future upgrades...

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by flappist

Holden sell to Holden customers.

Simple observation.

Other than the $150k++ W427 no HSV has gotten even close to FPV performance for over 5 years for more money.

Right now the slowest FPV is quicker than the fastest HSV (and $30k cheaper).

Why does HSV outsell FPV?

Brand loyalty.

Holden didn't walk away from their V8 customers in 1983 like Ford did. Their (Holdens) persistance and sticking with the V8 has got them (and HSV) where they are today.

[KuRT12]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The 5.4 even made more power than the ss and the GM still sold well, it's a car that ticks the boxes for that segment at the right price.

Lol thats because the 5.4 was an anchor...

Originally Posted by flappist

Holden sell to Holden customers.

Simple observation.

Other than the $150k++ W427 no HSV has gotten even close to FPV performance for over 5 years for more money.

Right now the slowest FPV is quicker than the fastest HSV (and $30k cheaper).

Why does HSV outsell FPV?

HSV Outsell FPV due to loyalty, but i think up until the Miami they had the better package (in V8's anyway - the 6T is great, but a different buyer..)

I Myself am a Holden man overall... but I'm not that ridiculously loyal to the brand. I currently drive a VE, but i think the Miami is light years ahead of the GM engine.

I still think Holden's interior craps all over fords current one.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by flappist

Now an observation.

Historically XR8 has been the "slow" XR. In every model since EB with the possible exception of AU3 an XR6 has been quicker.

Maybe Ford/FPV were trying to distance themselves from any perception of "all show no go"........

I was thinking about that and perhaps you are correct in saying this though I'd ad the ED Sprint to that list and I think the BA saw the XR8 quicker to 100 at least...

But its like backing your favorite football team. You back them when they did well and when they werent doing well. For the first time (in a long time) with the coyote talk and then Miami, it felt that the XR8 was finally going to get the gear to get ahead of the XR6T (but more importantly, the SS) and then they axe your team from the comp. NOT Fair!

Also, the insurance difference between an FPV to a FORD is still a bit more even if you value them for the same amount....

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by flappist

How could it possibly be made cheaper to become an XR8?

That $40 million R&D is built into the price tag of each unit. If they are moving another 1500+ units per year under the XR8 brand, there will be alot more room to move than there currently is with RRP.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by flappist

Holden sell to Holden customers.

Simple observation.

Other than the $150k++ W427 no HSV has gotten even close to FPV performance for over 5 years for more money.

Right now the slowest FPV is quicker than the fastest HSV (and $30k cheaper).

Why does HSV outsell FPV?

Well soon there will only be HSV...

Bit hard to say that when you have V8 only buyers.. F6 has meant jack **** to alot of guys who only wanted a V8... They went for the HSV because they got a better package, and still are.. Soon we will all be buying them because of the blind freedies that live in Campbellfield.

Hell id buy a VEII SSV Redline for 51 kay all day everyday before the quicker GS... just like i bought my FG GT over a Clubsport because it was 5 kay cheaper and had more standard features... Not everyone just buys on peformance, but if you don't offer a product then the choice is easy to make...