Barra inline 6 confirmed till 2016

[2011G6E]

I love inline six cylinder engines. The engine in our G6E us amazing. But I also realise that it's days are...or probably should...be numbered.

Unless there's a bigger market than just Australia, we'll keep getting stuck with expensive cars that don't meet world standards.
Ford is a massive world wide industry, and they've got access to a lot of interesting engines. Might it not have been a good idea to consider something different instead of putting development dollars into an old engine?

[whales]

It's a dinosaur engine in a dinosaur car being built by a dinosaur company ....No wonder they cant sell the damn things

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Try this link for finding LPG retailers.....LPGA Finder

It is on the internet, it must be true.....

Try ringing them and asking if they actually have any LPG at the moment.

All that site says is that they have a pump NOT that they have LPG in stock.

LPG is a pain as it requires special transport and if sales are not high it is much cheaper to wait until a truck is coming rather than get a top up. Often some are out for weeks at a time.
This is not such a problem with povvo dual-fuel conversions but a major oops with dedicated systems.

It is hard enough to find 95ron out west let alone "city-boy fuel".

[smoo]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I love inline six cylinder engines. The engine in our G6E us amazing. But I also realise that it's days are...or probably should...be numbered.

Unless there's a bigger market than just Australia, we'll keep getting stuck with expensive cars that don't meet world standards.
Ford is a massive world wide industry, and they've got access to a lot of interesting engines. Might it not have been a good idea to consider something different instead of putting development dollars into an old engine?

What is 'old' about it? The block castings? Hardly a good reason to can it, otherwise the small block chev would be long gone. Better to spend dollars on it than to invest on some US thing that isn't proven like the I6 is. In its current state, it is an efficient, reliable world class engine that shows some of the 'high tech' stuff a thing or two, especially the wheezy alloytech.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

It is on the internet, it must be true.....

Try ringing them and asking if they actually have any LPG at the moment.

All that site says is that they have a pump NOT that they have LPG in stock.

LPG is a pain as it requires special transport and if sales are not high it is much cheaper to wait until a truck is coming rather than get a top up. Often some are out for weeks at a time.
This is not such a problem with povvo dual-fuel conversions but a major oops with dedicated systems.

It is hard enough to find 95ron out west let alone "city-boy fuel".

So is being stranded at an empty LPG station a regular occurrence out West or just a fear?

Agree dedicated LPG can be a PITA if you're stuck way out west but a
lot more people have dual fuel than Falcon E-gas set ups so shouldn't
be a drama to most travelers..

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So is being stranded at an empty LPG station a regular occurrence out West or just a fear?

Agree dedicated LPG can be a PITA if you're stuck way out west but a
lot more people have dual fuel than Falcon E-gas set ups so shouldn't
be a drama to most travelers..

Many examples of people being caught over the years including the idiots in our state government sending 2 LPG only vehicles on a truck to Birdsville only to have them trucked back.

I personally was caught several times in my GT-P (BA Mk1 no knock sensor so no run on 91) out west when they did not have any PULP despite the internet
AND me ringing a couple of days before to check which is why I always had a 20l jerrycan in the boot.

[DFB FGXR6]

I remember Ford did a round Australia trip in about 2005 or 2006 in BF Fairmont EGAS to prove that LPG supply was widely available. I think Craig Lowndes was involved as well?

[XRtowcar]

Think Barra is almost out of date now.
There is some very fuel efficient engines coming out very soon that are making the twin cam six look a bit thirsty.
By 2016 it will have been going about four years too long.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Maybe what Ford needs is a new take on the old XP durability run, except this time the drivers, one in an EcoLPI FG and the others say in a Cruze, Corolla, Mazda3 are given a $20 fuel voucher and then followed until each car runs out...which car will go further for your money.

Edit: I originally said a $50 voucher but maybe it won't need $50 to fill an EcoLPI, lol.

And maybe bring back a new version of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4T_IhTviZo

What Ford needs to do is get a fleet of EcoLPi cars and do a lap around Australia to show that LPG is available in most places and show how well it is economy wise.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Gizmos wise?

I was referring to engine changes.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by smoo

What is 'old' about it? The block castings? Hardly a good reason to can it, otherwise the small block chev would be long gone. Better to spend dollars on it than to invest on some US thing that isn't proven like the I6 is. In its current state, it is an efficient, reliable world class engine that shows some of the 'high tech' stuff a thing or two, especially the wheezy alloytech.

Agree with this how hard could it be for ford to turn our I6 Alloy Block ??

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by whales

It's a dinosaur engine in a dinosaur car being built by a dinosaur company ....No wonder they cant sell the damn things

I resent it being called a dinosaur engine. It gives the Holden V6 a run for its money.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by whales

It's a dinosaur engine in a dinosaur car being built by a dinosaur company ....No wonder they cant sell the damn things

Did they not say the same thing about the XD back in 1978? "The Last of the Dinosaurs"....

It outlasted the Valiant, the Kingswood, the Torana. Nissan came and went with their great locally assembled vehicles. But Falcon is still here...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by billy302

Well I've never been caught out and I've towed a caravan all over Australia.
I've also driven lpg duel fuel vehicles for many years in the bush too and have never ran out. Its something called planning. Something a moron like you knows nothing about.

No a moron would be someone who does not understand that their vehicle is DUAL fuel, as in two capable of operating on two different fuels not DUEL fuel, as in two fuels fighting with pistols at 10 paces or did your planning not include primary school education in English language.

An intelligent person understands that regardless of how much planning sometimes things just do not work out the way you want them to and makes provision accordingly.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

Agree with this how hard could it be for ford to turn our I6 Alloy Block ??

Very hard and expensive.

Every piece of tooling in the block line would need to be modified to handle the machining of the softer alloy. They tried an alloy block down the block line years ago and the softer alloy clogged all the tooling up from what I heard.

It would take work away from the casting plant too, as they only do iron, and aluminium casting does not have the provisions to make engine blocks, so an outside supplier would need to do it. Holden have their alloy blocks come in from Mexico.

They will just wait 5 years and switch to another Ford engine that happens to be all alloy.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Think Barra is almost out of date now.
There is some very fuel efficient engines coming out very soon that are making the twin cam six look a bit thirsty.
By 2016 it will have been going about four years too long.

There is no reason the Barra couldn`t match these engines with some good money spent on it. Espcially that it`s a proven platform.

If they went Alloy (i know BossXR8 said they had issues, surely they could overcome them) then things could workout.

On a different note whats to say Ford couldn`t drop the engine from the Falcon line up to put it in say the Lincoln line up redesigned and called something else. As a powerplant it is an awesome engine.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by stang65

On a different note whats to say Ford couldn`t drop the engine from the Falcon line up to put it in say the Lincoln line up redesigned and called something else. As a powerplant it is an awesome engine.

Pedestrian crash regulations would be starting to get in the way. A shorter engine with a lower deck height allows more bonnet clearance to the engine and the room for both a high and low energy crumple zone in the front end.

I think some people need to be a bit more realistic about the I6 as well. If its good now, its because its basically bigger than every 6 cylinder on the market. Trim it down to ~3.5L or thereabouts and i'm sure it would probably start looking a bit ordinary compared to the 6 cylinder competition out there.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I think some people need to be a bit more realistic about the I6 as well. If its good now, its because its basically bigger than every 6 cylinder on the market. Trim it down to ~3.5L or thereabouts and i'm sure it would probably start looking a bit ordinary compared to the 6 cylinder competition out there.

It already does.
Ford/Mazda
Duratech 3.5: 198kw @ 6,250rpm & 338Nm @ 4,500rpm
Duratech 3.7: 227kW @ 6,500rpm & 380 Nm @ 4,250rpm

Nissan
VQ37VHR: 248kW @ 7,000rpm & 365Nm @ 5200rpm
VQ35HR: 232kW @ 6,800rpm & 363Nm @ 4,800 rpm

I'll leave it at that.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

It already does.
Ford/Mazda
Duratech 3.5: 198kw @ 6,250rpm & 338Nm @ 4,500rpm
Duratech 3.7: 227kW @ 6,500rpm & 380 Nm @ 4,250rpm

Nissan
VQ37VHR: 248kW @ 7,000rpm & 365Nm @ 5200rpm
VQ35HR: 232kW @ 6,800rpm & 363Nm @ 4,800 rpm

I'll leave it at that.

Lol are you serious, look at those shthouse torque figures. Power isn't everything.

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I think some people need to be a bit more realistic about the I6 as well. If its good now, its because its basically bigger than every 6 cylinder on the market. Trim it down to ~3.5L or thereabouts and i'm sure it would probably start looking a bit ordinary compared to the 6 cylinder competition out there.

And what would be the point of that, it would loose a decent amount of low end torque and probably be thirstier on gas. Considering the I6 can get low 7l/100km speaks for itself. If only they went DI on it.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by smoo

Lol are you serious, look at those shthouse torque figures. Power isn't everything.

The 3.7 Duratech has only 10Nm less than the 4L I6 although admittedly higher in the rev range.

Just using the Duratech 3.7 figures and stretching them to 4L for comparison you get 245kw and 410Nm.

Or in reverse, bringing the I6 to 3.7L - 179Kw and 361Nm.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by smoo

Lol are you serious, look at those shthouse torque figures. Power isn't everything.



And what would be the point of that, it would loose a decent amount of low end torque and probably be thirstier on gas. Considering the I6 can get low 7l/100km speaks for itself. If only they went DI on it.

Really?

VQ35HR 3.5l 363Nm = 103.7 Nm/l
FG 4.0l 391Nm = 97.75 Nm/l
FG BOSS 5.4 565Nm = 104.6 Nm/l

I6 is not all that spectacular is it?

But you say power isn't everything?

VQ35HR 230kw = 65.7 kw/l
FG 4.0 195kw = 48.75 kw/l
FG BOSS 5.4 310kw = 57.4 kw/l

You are right......in some cases it is almost nothing.....

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by flappist

Really?

VQ35HR 3.5l 363Nm = 103.7 Nm/l
FG 4.0l 391Nm = 97.75 Nm/l
FG BOSS 5.4 565Nm = 104.6 Nm/l

I6 is not all that spectacular is it?

But you say power isn't everything?

VQ35HR 230kw = 65.7 kw/l
FG 4.0 195kw = 48.75 kw/l
FG BOSS 5.4 310kw = 57.4 kw/l

You are right......in some cases it is almost nothing.....

That doesn't take into account which engine develops torque at lowest RPM. The Barras undersquare dimensions are definately part of the Falcons character, and give it a USP.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

That doesn't take into account which engine develops torque at lowest RPM. The Barras undersquare dimensions are definately part of the Falcons character, and give it a USP.

1. So throw a turbo-diesel into it, better fuel economy, more torque.
2. A part of its character that might be costing sales? Would be interesting to compare the fuel economy of a falcon with the i6 against the economy of a falcon with a Duratech 3.5 or 3.7. And then compare the i6t against ecoboost.
3. Whats a USP?
4. The v6 is a shorter motor which means you can either make the bonnet smaller and get a smaller car, or enlarge the cabin area and maintain the same overall length.

Plus switching to the all-alluminium engine would save potentially hundreds of millions in development costs if they were to try switch the I6 to an alluminium block and direct injection, money they'd probably never recoup.

Remember, Ford is a Business, they exist to make money.

On top of that, i'd wouldn't really be surprised if the ecoboost Falcon is quicker then the current N/A I6 falcon.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Really?

VQ35HR 3.5l 363Nm = 103.7 Nm/l
FG 4.0l 391Nm = 97.75 Nm/l
FG BOSS 5.4 565Nm = 104.6 Nm/l

I6 is not all that spectacular is it?

But you say power isn't everything?

VQ35HR 230kw = 65.7 kw/l
FG 4.0 195kw = 48.75 kw/l
FG BOSS 5.4 310kw = 57.4 kw/l

You are right......in some cases it is almost nothing.....

And my bike produces 120 kw/l, can you think of any more irrelavant comparisons that should be added ontop of yours?
What is the point in comparing theoretical kw or nm/litre figures? They have no real world relevance. Get in the drivers seat to see how good the I6 performs. As I said, low 7l/100km is not uncommon, turbo diesel like low down torque, as well as 1 million+ kms lifespan. The only thing going against the I6 at this stage would be its weight and limited/no fwd application. Apart from that it IS a world class engine.

[nasss92]

it is a world class engine

- SMOO, here here to that mate

it will be very interesting to see what the updated barra I6 will be like in the october fg II release... these engines have much more power being held up by the current fg platforms setup, for example:
stats for current bara read Power: 195 kW (261 hp) @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 391 N·m (288 lb·ft) @ 3250 rpm note: this is on 91 octane, its potential with 98 RON, produce over 200 kW (268 hp) and 420 N·m competitors like toyota aurion have their figures of 200 kW (268 hp) at 6,200 rpm,336 N·m of peak torque at 4,700 rpm using 98 octane petrol.. already we see its capacity for being a torque monster over its market rivals

1.the exhaust system is extremely restrictive.. holding up anywhere between 10-20rwkw across the rev range.. an uprated header and cat system can take care of this (there are examples of economy in xr6s with exhaust and ecu tune attaining +650km per tank running in urban environments)
2. the ecu system can quiet easily be tuned, 10-15 kw (which also differs with other variables like exhaust etc).... not including the capacity to do a system which offeres economy + track tune like the current mustang (im sure it wouldnt be that expensive to have 2 tunes running on the factory ecu, or offer a xcal 3 setup from the factory which could cost an easy grand)
3. engine modifications - a multitude of things can be change ie. running alloy heads like the f6, uprated underdrive pulleys, CAI's, cam work and different springs, head porting etc. all of which have potential to increase efficiency and power = more go for longer (WIN WIN!)
4. weight saving - ford hasnt even touched the capacity for weight saving.. carbon fibre and the like are revolutionising the automotive industry.. carbonart have developed a range of products from drivetrain to suspension to engine mods that reduce weight and improve part performance.. their IRS for the ford ute weighs in at 29kg vs factory 220kg .. in a 1800 odd kg car, thers potential for hundreds of kilos of weight shaving which would = the only relative weak point of the ford, its power/weight ratio to improve dramatically

point in case.. ther is still so much potential in the I6 and its falcon/terry setups to improve everything from power to economy, and although i am not an engineer (or have in depth knowledge on ford R and D policies or their capacity for changing production) it would be definitely a ridiculous claim to suggest to barra (and its potential with the current falcon set up) is not a premier world class engine and has no room for feasible expansion in its present sate.

up the mighty barra I6 (and falcon), i like many, will continue to enjoy driving past rice burners with my 4 mates in the car and some in the boot... maybe even a trailer out the back too
i wish you goodluck finding something that can do the same which isnt forced induction or v8

[flappist]

Originally Posted by smoo

And my bike produces 120 kw/l, can you think of any more irrelavant comparisons that should be added ontop of yours?
What is the point in comparing theoretical kw or nm/litre figures? They have no real world relevance. Get in the drivers seat to see how good the I6 performs. As I said, low 7l/100km is not uncommon, turbo diesel like low down torque, as well as 1 million+ kms lifespan. The only thing going against the I6 at this stage would be its weight and limited/no fwd application. Apart from that it IS a world class engine.

Well lets see....

In the past few years I have driven about 85,000km in a BOSS 5.4, 76,000km in a VQ35HR, 110,000km in a I6T and more than 500,000km in various I6s.
I have driven them variously on drag strips, circuit tracks, open speed limited roads up to over 250km/h, towed trailers, carried 5 people plus luggage and in every state of Australia and both North and South Islands of New Zealand.

So what are your personal experiences?

P.S. Can you list any the awards the I6 has been given in the last 20 years or so?

[smoo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well lets see....

In the past few years I have driven about 85,000km in a BOSS 5.4, 76,000km in a VQ35HR, 110,000km in a I6T and more than 500,000km in various I6s.
I have driven them variously on drag strips, circuit tracks, open speed limited roads up to over 250km/h, towed trailers, carried 5 people plus luggage and in every state of Australia and both North and South Islands of New Zealand.

So what are your personal experiences?

P.S. Can you list any the awards the I6 has been given in the last 20 years or so?

So in other words, you're saying the I6 is not worthy from your vast experience and the fact it hasn't won a award by pen pushing journos. That, and the fact you need to pull out the pointless kw/litre stats show you don't really have a clue, no matter how many kays you've racked up in em.
I'm thinking you haven't driven the alloytech engine (which rates pretty good on your flawed kw/l stats) and drawn comparisons, as we all know the I6 walks all over it.

[z80]

It's obscene to justify an engine's continued use by it's potential low cost if adapted to LPG.

LPG price is artificially low, a few changes in Govt policy and the LPG argument falls in a heap.

It's pointless to say that a LPG Falcon is cheaper to run than a petrol Toyota.
If someone were to put LPG on the Toyota it would end in tears for the Falcon.


Ford Australia needs to make lighter,more efficient engine and passenger cells to have any hope of being a relevant manufacturer.

It will be tragic if they don't move soon.

A good start is to ignore the I6 and move to match the competition.

[z80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well lets see....

In the past few years I have driven about 85,000km in a BOSS 5.4, 76,000km in a VQ35HR, 110,000km in a I6T and more than 500,000km in various I6s.
I have driven them variously on drag strips, circuit tracks, open speed limited roads up to over 250km/h, towed trailers, carried 5 people plus luggage and in every state of Australia and both North and South Islands of New Zealand.

So what are your personal experiences?

P.S. Can you list any the awards the I6 has been given in the last 20 years or so?

So you're a semi driver who delivers Fords to dealers all round australia?.....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by smoo

So in other words, you're saying the I6 is not worthy from your vast experience and the fact it hasn't won a award by pen pushing journos. That, and the fact you need to pull out the pointless kw/litre stats show you don't really have a clue, no matter how many kays you've racked up in em.
I'm thinking you haven't driven the alloytech engine (which rates pretty good on your flawed kw/l stats) and drawn comparisons, as we all know the I6 walks all over it.

No I am not saying the I6 is not a good engine, I am saying that your one eyed "world class" babble is unfounded.

You keep fixating of the kw/l and ignoring the Nm/l even though it was a reply to your earlier post. Why is that? Oh it does not support your position.....

I have no interest in alloytec or any other holden engine. Do you base you expert opinion on it is better than holden so it must be world class?

The "we all know", is that based on your personal driving, "pen pushing journo" reports or internet forum posts?