Call to Arms

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

"Heavily protect them" like "the good old days"...yep...the good old days when Aussie car makers knew damn well they could be lazy and produce any old under-equipped rubbish of a pretty low standard, knowing that imports which were usually much better screwed together and better equipped would be priced out of competition by a protective government.

Does anyone honestly think that Australian-made cars would be equipped and made as well as they are if they hadn't had to face stiff competition from cheaper overseas cars that had twice the standard equipment levels? Look at most American cars...they're "heavily protected" and are, to be blunt, built down to a price and mostly look good, but inside are acres of cheap flimsy plastic and certainly don't have a quality feel to them....but they don't have to...they know that a captive audience of patriotic Yanks will buy any old crap they churn out, because they are well protected by government policy and it's "Made In the USA!!"...

That's the way to make them face the reality of the hard cold world...

First of all American cars are built to a price, not heavily protected - there is a big difference. And geesh where were you during to the 60s and 70s? Australian cars were some of the best in the world for the money. Especially compared to the English, French, Italian and American cars at the time. Protection does not automatically mean uncompetitive. The competition between the Australian car makers was fierce.

[Brazen]

it would be good if the NBN's $6000 spend per person got as much scrutiny

[tweeked]

I love statistics like this that make no sense

Show it in a figure based on assistance per car built.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Just out of interest, could you possibly tells us where those more than 50,000 people are employed in auto manufacturing (please feel free to use google). I am always interested to know how 50,000 plus people on an average of $50,000 per year, are only able to make 220,000 cars per year (4.4 per person).

Even allowing an average wholesale price of $28000 per car, that equates to $123,000 per employee per year. Doesnt seem to be a very productive industry.

The only reason why anyone would "Call for arms" would be to enable them to pull their heads out of the sand.

the figure they gave on ABC radio was 14,000 directly employed in auto manufacturing. (i believe that figure doesn't include administration, distribution and sales).

Originally Posted by .fomoco.

Maybe its not all about the economy

remember the reason Holden was setup for local manufacturing? Japan was on the warpath in the pacific!

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I love statistics like this that make no sense

Show it in a figure based on assistance per car built.

That would be interesting.

[SumoDog68]

I would protect local car industry if there was one. Unfortunately our car industry is not ours - GM , Ford and Toyota are foreign owned companies that produce some of their cars locally.
Because these local manufacturing plants and supplier networks employ lot of people our goverment is supporting their existance. I would like to see real aussie car company (or two) to design and produce a car(s) for our market.
Maybe use Ford inline 6 (soon to be obsolete ) under license , and produce a 4wd ute and wagon to compete with Hilux / Prado at fraction of the cost.
I know the costs of developing new vehicles are astronomical so it will probably stay just a dream...

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

I would protect local car industry if there was one. Unfortunately our car industry is not ours - GM , Ford and Toyota are foreign owned companies that produce some of their cars locally.
Because these local manufacturing plants and supplier networks employ lot of people our goverment is supporting their existance. I would like to see real aussie car company (or two) to design and produce a car(s) for our market.
Maybe use Ford inline 6 (soon to be obsolite ) under license , and produce a 4wd ute and wagon to compete with Hilux / Prado at fraction of the cost.
I know the costs of developing new vehicles are astronomical so it will probably stay just a dream...

Nice sentiment, but how do you propose that niche Australian designed vehicles, for a small proportion of the Aussie population, could ever exceed (or meet) the quality of global models mass produced in the hundreds of thousands, tested in real world conditions all over the world, and then we create them at a 'fraction of the cost'?

It can't be done.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Nice sentiment, but how do you propose that niche Australian designed vehicles, for a small proportion of the Aussie population, could ever exceed (or meet) the quality of global models mass produced in the hundreds of thousands, tested in real world conditions all over the world, and then we create them at a 'fraction of the cost'?

It can't be done.

Throw couple a billion into it and it might be possible.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

The other way to capture the Yanks is for manufacturers such as Toyota & Honda to manufacture in the USA. The cars are way better, production more streamlined and quality far, far better than the indigenous brands, and people buy them because they are made locally.

That is less the case here, where for some reason Ford & Holden seem to be seen as "Australian" and Mitsubishi & Toyota were/are seen as Japanese imports.

To this day, I believe the other three Aussie manufacturers conspired to help the media kill off Mitsubishi. That was a big shame. Now they reap what they sow.

Finally, what percentage of Commodore, Cruze, Statesman, Commo Utes, Falcon, Falcon Ute, Territory & Camry are made from locally manufactured components versus imported components? Our car manufacturers pretty much assemble cars from a bulk of imported materials, to global designs.

Where's the innovation?

Don't shoot me if I'm wrong here, because I'm going on what a Toyota staffer told me in training the other day and, well, Toyota staffers are always talking Toyota up as they should.

He states that Toyota's Australian content, that is the amount of components inside and outside of the vehicle that is manufactured and assembled in Australia for Camry, Hybrid Camry and Aurion is higher than Ford and Holdens.

If this is true, it's amazing that people still think Toyota is just a Japanese brand.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by ray38l

Mining is our economic saviour not just because of the jobs but because when they spend money its not small change.
If the government were propping up the local manufacturers as much as the other countries maybe we would be exporting alot of cars.
They either need to protect the industry or support it with hand outs

Not all The mining Companies are Australian out there and at the end of the day what happens to our country when all the resources are gone?? the mining boom can't and won't last forever

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by SCUD

Don't shoot me if I'm wrong here, because I'm going on what a Toyota staffer told me in training the other day and, well, Toyota staffers are always talking Toyota up as they should.

He states that Toyota's Australian content, that is the amount of components inside and outside of the vehicle that is manufactured and assembled in Australia for Camry, Hybrid Camry and Aurion is higher than Ford and Holdens.

If this is true, it's amazing that people still think Toyota is just a Japanese brand.

This surprises me a little bit, but I suspect it's true. What I can't figure out is why Toyota would not market this fact. Probably because their export success is more important to their manufacturing than thier local success.

I had thought that Fords would have the highest Aussie component content because they make the engines here (but then again, so do Holden). I am not sure if Toyota make their engines here.

[Poetic Justice]

They do make their engines here. The only one that isn't is the Hybrid Camry engine.

The steel used in body panels I believe is also manufactured in Australia.

[ebxr8240]

Keep in mind Japan has used countries like Korea and Thailand for years
with there lower wages..
Many car components are made in Thailand..
Was very surprised to see Lexus transmission parts made there...

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Keep in mind Japan has used countries like Korea and Thailand for years
with there lower wages..
Many car components are made in Thailand..
Was very surprised to see Lexus transmission parts made there...

Heaps of manufacturers use Thailand, not just the Japanese ones.

Wages are the largest component of car manufacturing, and most brands have plants in countries where labour costs are lower, including many European brands. I wonder if BMW & VW owners know where their German cars really come from.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by SCUD

They do make their engines here. The only one that isn't is the Hybrid Camry engine.

The steel used in body panels I believe is also manufactured in Australia.

Only engine built in Altona is 4cyl AZ series Camry engine - they are buil
Ing new facility for Hybrid Camry AR series engine - 2GR-FE 6cyl is imported.

[Ducati888]

Yes thanks SumoDog68. That makes me think of another point regarding the auto industry here. Whilst we may not export that many finished vehicles, we do export a lot of GM and Toyota engines.

We also import a lot of GM, Ford and Toyota engines, but only for domestic use. There would be far greater numbers of engines exported than imported.

[johnydep]

Increasing tariffs & handing out more money will not save Australia's automotive industry, because consumer are a fickle breed.

Smaller cars sell easier than our local big cars, but we still want big cars. We want to be different, we like the European stuff, we like the American stuff. We hold onto our cars too long, we want to stand out from the crowd.

If our local auto manufacturers build 3 models - small, medium and large, they would cover most of the market. However, to be able to do that they need to sell a large numbers of each size to be viable.

Can not be done with local sales alone, they need to ramp up exports. Tax dollars should be directed to forcing companies to export; Bob Hawke said this as Prime Minister. There was also talk of having only one manufacturer.

[peterhellmann]

We need to protect our local jobs and local industries, all for Govt intervention

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by peterhellmann

We need to protect our local jobs and local industries, all for Govt intervention

Has it worked before? Have a look at what happened during the 1970's, when Australia had many forms of protectionism in place.

Has the manufacturers used the money and tariffs wisely? Or have they put it into general revenue to boost their profits and build factories in countries like Korea and Thailand?

I have a small chunk of anarchy in me

[IDT]

For Chist sake, do people not get how protectionism works??? If we bring it in on cars, then those who we would import cars from introduce it on the items we export to them and charge us more for what we import. In the end we support a dead industry and pay more for everything else that we import and hinder that which would normally be exported. Get over protectionism, our economy is way too small to support it.

[Luke Plaizier]

But they are charging us NOW for the stuff we export to them. China. Japan. Thailand. Europe. USA. Brazil.

It's a bit hard to get over when it appears that we're the only country not doing it, and appearing to not be getting any benefit from not doing it.....


Lukeyson

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by johnydep

We hold onto our cars too long, we want to stand out from the crowd.

If our local auto manufacturers build 3 models - small, medium and large, they would cover most of the market. However, to be able to do that they need to sell a large numbers of each size to be viable.

Can not be done with local sales alone, they need to ramp up exports. Tax dollars should be directed to forcing companies to export; Bob Hawke said this as Prime Minister. There was also talk of having only one manufacturer.

We keep our cars too long? Carefull...that's how stupid ideas like banning cars older than five years old (which pops up every five to ten years or so) get started...
I think it's more environmentally responsible to keep an old car on the road than buy a new one every few years.

The Button Plan many years back was going to revolutionise the car industry here...each maker had to cut back the number of models it made and share badges around, which led to horrifying things like the "Toyota Lexen" and other badge-engineered cars, making the motoring landscape a bit bland as everyones cars looked the same...in fact were the same except for the badge.
Here's a few examples...
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...one-mad-76635/

Would we really lose that many jobs here if they started building CKD kits from overseas again for the vanishingly small number of large cars they sell nowadays here? Seeing as how most cars sold here are imports anyway, I wouldn't think it would be a big deal.

[Luke Plaizier]

And like China, we could force all manufacturers who want to sell into Australia to have a local manuifacturing presence for CKDs, as well as force them to form partnerships with local companies, and finally force them to share their Intellectual Property with the local partners.

Sounds like an awesome idea!



Lukeyson

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

and finally force them to share their Intellectual Property with the local partners.

What IP would they have that they havent already stolen from elsewhere?

[GhiaEB]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

But they are charging us NOW for the stuff we export to them. China. Japan. Thailand. Europe. USA. Brazil.

It's a bit hard to get over when it appears that we're the only country not doing it, and appearing to not be getting any benefit from not doing it.....


Lukeyson

I've never understood the free trade agreements where we get screwed afterwards. I've always felt its a way for their company's to enter our market, knowing out gov will do nothing if they change their laws afterwards.

I'm a massive fan of protecting the manufacturing industry at all costs! That is even if it is foreign owned. The amount of money these employees put back into the ecconmy is astronomical.

With imports very little of the money gets returned to the ecconmy, sure maybe the retail/service staff wages. But other than that very little remains.

A bit OT here but what made the British empire so vast, was it only traded within itself (up untill WW2). Hence we had Canadan built model A's and T's.

[IDT]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

But they are charging us NOW for the stuff we export to them. China. Japan. Thailand. Europe. USA. Brazil.

It's a bit hard to get over when it appears that we're the only country not doing it, and appearing to not be getting any benefit from not doing it.....


Lukeyson

Your right, the pool table definately tilts in thier favour, and as damned frustrating as it is, that's the cost of having such a huge country with such a small population. More than car manufacturing we need to develop our infrastructure, hospitals, road, rail access the list of better spends is endless. So in my opinion, before laying down tarriffs we need to consider there are quite a number of companies big and small that owe thier very existence to places such as those you mentioned. Mining, fisheries, tourism, construction, medical research and development etc that would suffer as well as those "infrastructures" that need those funds more.

[GhiaEB]

Tariffs are only one part of protecting any industry. There are other ways also, such as government asstance packages. It also circumvents some FTAs we have.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

We keep our cars too long? Carefull...that's how stupid ideas like banning cars older than five years old (which pops up every five to ten years or so) get started...
I think it's more environmentally responsible to keep an old car on the road than buy a new one every few years.

The Button Plan many years back was going to revolutionise the car industry here...each maker had to cut back the number of models it made and share badges around, which led to horrifying things like the "Toyota Lexen" and other badge-engineered cars, making the motoring landscape a bit bland as everyones cars looked the same...in fact were the same except for the badge.
Here's a few examples...
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...one-mad-76635/

Would we really lose that many jobs here if they started building CKD kits from overseas again for the vanishingly small number of large cars they sell nowadays here? Seeing as how most cars sold here are imports anyway, I wouldn't think it would be a big deal.

I wouldn't have a bar of banning cars, I mentioned anarchy before because I'm against big Governments. Every time the Government bring in a new plan they create a new department to enforce new regulations. Sick of it!

What I mean by us keeping our cars too long is that there are a lot of bombs on the road that belong in a wrecking yard; well in my State anyway. They don't have to be banned, just drop the State Government Stamp Duty!

The Button plan wasn't fully implemented, as usual Governments water things down to ensure they win the extra 5000 votes. What he really wanted was for there to be only 1 or 2 vehicle manufactures - strength in production. Nissan was the first to pull out and become a importer of vehicles, but that's where it stopped.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Heaps of manufacturers use Thailand, not just the Japanese ones.

Wages are the largest component of car manufacturing, and most brands have plants in countries where labour costs are lower, including many European brands. I wonder if BMW & VW owners know where their German cars really come from.

Wages are only the largest portion of car manufacturing if you include the R&D, and design elements. This is still mostly done in first world coutries. The actual bolting together process, is not particularly laborious.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by irish2

Wages are only the largest portion of car manufacturing if you include the R&D, and design elements. This is still mostly done in first world coutries. The actual bolting together process, is not particularly laborious.

Manufacture and assembly of a Falcon account for 6% of the vehicles cost, move production to China and it will be 1-2%. Your 40K Falcon will come down to 35-36K, wages are not the be all and end all of the auto industry.