Taxis, LPG, Hybrids and diesel - Page 2

jpd80 · 09-06-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Would be nowhere near those figures.

The Hybrids advantage comes from heavy traffic/stop start driving. Get them outside that and the advantages drop away a lot. Might be good for Melbourne or Sydney but less so outside of there.

I always see Falcons as taxis here.

Most of the Falcon cabs I see are older BF sedans and station wagons, seeing a lot more Prius and hybrid Camrys these days.
The owners i've spoken to are looking at vehicles other than LPG Falcon but if they still can get cheap second hand E-gas Falcons,
they will buy them..The difference in running costs is making them sit up and take notice.

Nic85 · 10-06-2012, 02:42 PM

It's a no brainer really. 5L/100km vs 20L/100km. Even if gas is half the price of petrol, a hybrid is still 100% more economical. Even the diesel Passats' I see, their Urban figure is still in the 6L/100km range.

jpd80 · 10-06-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic85

It's a no brainer really. 5L/100km vs 20L/100km. Even if gas is half the price of petrol, a hybrid is still 100% more economical. Even the diesel Passats' I see, their Urban figure is still in the 6L/100km range.

Any car that spacious and has an Urban fuel economy of less than half that of an LPG car
is what the taxi companies are after, anything that gives real savings in running costs..

Couple that with the looming gap on the used car market between the end of E-Gas and the
start of EcoLPI and there's no doubt that taxi owners will be looking at several alternatives.

When LPG was a quarter or a third of the price of petrol/diesel the LPG car made sense
but since everyone jumped on the LPG fitting incentives a few years ago, fuel companies
have been adjusting prices to protect lost petrol sales by increasing LPG, like that did
when everyone discovered that diesel in SUVs was a good think..

Nic85 · 10-06-2012, 03:00 PM

When you think about the big picture too, it's a real opportunity for the Australian government to lend some money to Holden and Ford to produce a smaller hybrid car that taxi companies and government organisations alike, can invest in and use for their fleets. So instead of Energex buying bloody Hyundai i20's, or Black and White cabs buying VW Passats', they can buy the Ford Fusion hybrid (for arguments sake) or the Holden Cruze hybrid, or whatever it may be. Offer the fleet companies good discounts on the product, and you then have a sustainable Australian car industry, being sustained by our own government and big fleet companies. Fancy that!!

Cabbie · 10-06-2012, 05:07 PM

We have 3 Toyota Prius as Taxis in our fleet and are now finding a few issues.

1st being oil usage,

The reason for the extra usage is the idling of these vehicle with the AC on whilst waiting for fares or at night,same thing,they have the heaters on,this has a few ongoing issues being extra load on the main battery,this doesn't seem to be an issue with our other cabs.

2nd being main battery life,

There has been 2 main battery's replaced in our area and we may be replacing a main battery ourselves soon,with the hybrid vehicles in my fleet with now around 3 to 450000ks on the clock,there fuel consumption has not been consistent like our other vehicles (diesel and LPG/petrol vehicles)this is due to the main battery not being able to sustain its own energy levels,this has been proven with the 2 Prius that have had there main battery's replace now returning similar consumption figures from when these vehicles where first put into service.Replacment battery's for the Prius are around $3000 at the moment.

mike_nofx · 10-06-2012, 05:14 PM

What's a rough fuel consumption estimate of a Prius with good batteries, to one with worn batteries, both while being used as a cab?

jpd80 · 10-06-2012, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

What's a rough fuel consumption estimate of a Prius with good batteries, to one with worn batteries, both while being used as a cab?

Probably best described in terms of fuel cost per shift in dollars so as to compare with LPG and diesel vehicles..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racecraft

THe Prius get better eco than the Camry
On day shift when you really slug the traffic and stop start
Pruis= $10-$12 of ULP
Camry= $19-$22 of ULP
Egas 4 speeder = $28 of LPG
FG 4 speeder with SVI & Territory 4 speed with SVI = $28-32 of LPG + $5 ULP
FG 6 speed with SVI = $30-$35 of LPG + $5 ULP

Prius $25Camry #0

Cabbie · 10-06-2012, 05:34 PM

This all depends on drivers,but the norm would be good battery's around 3.5 to 4.5ltr to the 100, bad battery's ,as you would expects from 4.5ltrs and we have seen figures of up to 9ltrs but have been told of higher then this.

jpd80 · 10-06-2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbie

This all depends on drivers,but the norm would be good battery's around 3.5 to 4.5ltr to the 100, bad battery's ,as you would expects from 4.5ltrs and we have seen figures of up to 9ltrs but have been told of higher then this.

So if i read you correctly, the batteries can (or do) go bad from about 400,000 km?

Interesting to know whether it's all of the batteries in the pack or just one or two duds dragging the rest down..

Cabbie · 10-06-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

So if i read you correctly, the batteries can (or do) go bad from about 400,000 km?

Interesting to know whether it's all of the batteries in the pack or just one or two duds dragging the rest down..

Your correct in saying can,some owner operators that I know are getting a longer life out of there battery's,if not the taxis whole life as a taxi because they are,owner operators.in my cause,I rely on drivers,and some not all don't really give a Truck.

jpd80 · 10-06-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbie

Your correct in saying can,some owner operators that I know are getting a longer life out of there battery's,if not the taxis whole life as a taxi because they are,owner operators.in my cause,I rely on drivers,and some not all don't really give a Truck.

Thanks for your posts on this thread, they're insightful to most of us who aren't aware of high mileage issues.
One more thing, what's your view on petrol/hybrids versus Diesel Versus LPG are we seeing a big change coming
or will a lot of taxi fleets stay with LPG Falcons & Commodores?

Cabbie · 10-06-2012, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Thanks for your posts on this thread, they're insightful to most of us who aren't aware of high mileage issues.
One more thing, what's your view on petrol/hybrids versus Diesel Versus LPG are we seeing a big change coming
or will a lot of taxi fleets stay with LPG Falcons & Commodores?

One thing that I know that they are trying and you might be aware or not is converting hybrid vehicles(namely prius)with LPI and are having massive savings on fuel consumptions,having a few issues though,mainly with the start up and switching between petrol to gas,they will fix this though,minor hitch.

With vehicles,

This has a lot to do with where these operators are based,in my cause we have Automix which is a very bad mix,so I am looking at Diesel and hybrids,but I'

m still a big gas fan,maybe this is where LPI could come into play for us,no convertor,no problems I'm being told,we will be fitting this up to one of our vehicles soon,time will tell.

**Jastel** · 10-06-2012, 06:54 PM

This is the MAIN point here, the driver is the main reason of fuel economy, or lack of it, no matter what car, naturally I get the best economy as I am the mug (owner) who has to pay for it!!

Many drivers dont give a toss, they flog cars, they will let them run for 12 hours no matter what you say, they want to stay cool, or warm if you are from down south, and I suppose in the 21st century you cant go backwards.
Far more fuel and pollution could be saved by councils/shopping centres putting taxi ranks in sheltered areas so the driver MAY turn the car off, whatever it is. In large overseas cities you must turn engines off after 10 minutes of idling to ease pollution.

If you are an owner driver with one car and no mechanical knowledge (ie have to send it Toyota anyway) Prius will be a good car, if you are a fleet operator with many drivers and can fix cars easily and have a stock of parts on the shelf the LPG Falcon is the winner.

Prius batteries have not been the main issue in their repair costs, the main issue is lack of parts and qualified mechanics, especially outside capital cities. Many of them are running purely on the petrol engine as the battery is useless and the owner wont replace it. Think of a laptop, when new it will run on batteries for 4 hours before needing recharging, after a year or so it will only run for 1 hour etc.

Fuel is a major running cost but not the only running cost. Availability of parts and downtime waiting for them is a problem too. Ford has trouble supplying parts for a car built here, you can imagine the issues getting parts for Prius and VW etc. How many of them do you see at the wreckers or in govt auctions? And we are not only talking about parts that wear out but panels etc needed from accidents etc as well.

Another thing to consider is what works in one place wont necesarily work in another place due to price/availablility of fuels and mechanics. So long as the govt keeps out of the arguement, the operators will use what suits them and their situation best, be it car, station wagon, van, LPG, petrol, diesel or hybrid. Legislating that all taxis must be electric to appease greenies will only mean that the powerlines will melt when we all plug in at 4 oclock!! Also each operator will need 2-3 electric cars to provide a 24hour service while the first car is charging, so fares must double as now we need MORE cars to provide the same service. During cyclones we lose power for a week at a time, guess everyone will just walk to work then...

It is not a simple arguement, if you dont want to ride in a Prius with 3 mates, take the second taxi, you are allowed to. Or vice versa if you are a greenie.

mik · 11-06-2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbie

We have 3 Toyota Prius as Taxis in our fleet and are now finding a few issues.

1st being oil usage,

The reason for the extra usage is the idling of these vehicle with the AC on whilst waiting for fares or at night,same thing,they have the heaters on,this has a few ongoing issues being extra load on the main battery,this doesn't seem to be an issue with our other cabs.

2nd being main battery life,

There has been 2 main battery's replaced in our area and we may be replacing a main battery ourselves soon,with the hybrid vehicles in my fleet with now around 3 to 450000ks on the clock,there fuel consumption has not been consistent like our other vehicles (diesel and LPG/petrol vehicles)this is due to the main battery not being able to sustain its own energy levels,this has been proven with the 2 Prius that have had there main battery's replace now returning similar consumption figures from when these vehicles where first put into service.Replacment battery's for the Prius are around $3000 at the moment.

so by the sound of it, by that stage the cars where basically running most of the time as normal cars and not hybrids as the batteries where toast and possibly some time before?

XR Martin · 11-06-2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

I also had the conversation with a driver in Adelaide a couple of months back. I too was surprised was that the Hybrid Camry cost half as much to run as the gas Falcons. I thought it was an exaggeration but that seems to mirror up to what the driver told you jdp80.

Initial purchase price isnt an issue as this firm buys all their Taxis brand new. So Hybrid Camry and Falcon are pretty similar.

The biggest issue he had was that the gas Falcon has a tiny boot due to the spare wheel, the Hybrid Camry has a full sized boot which is necessary for the airport run - they were also trialling a Holden Sportwagon on gas but he hadnt driven it.

Hybrid Camry does not have a full size boot, its as handicapped as an LPG Falcon. Hybrid has 421L vs 535L for a regular Camry
Also Camry still has those boot hinges that intrude into the boot.

Hybrid

jpd80 · 12-06-2012, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Hybrid Camry does not have a full size boot, its as handicapped as an LPG Falcon. Hybrid has 421L vs 535L for a regular Camry
Also Camry still has those boot hinges that intrude into the boot.

Hybrid
image

Are you sure?

XR Martin · 12-06-2012, 12:58 AM

Yeah...

Its more obvious in real life however.

jpd80 · 12-06-2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Yeah...

Its more obvious in real life however.

image

Well I've been picked up at the airport with cabs that look like this

XR Martin · 12-06-2012, 01:06 AM

Red line is where the boot ends in a Hybrid

jpd80 · 12-06-2012, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Red line is where the boot ends in a Hybrid

image

Which is still enough to get suit cases in but as I told you, the taxis that rock up to the airports invariably have a tyre in the way..

Mr Hardware · 12-06-2012, 12:09 PM

apparently the current model camry has full boot usage, it was just the 2010&2011 models that have the decreased boot space, which i think in litres is the same as the old dual fuel falcons

XR Martin · 12-06-2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

apparently the current model camry has full boot usage, it was just the 2010&2011 models that have the decreased boot space, which i think in litres is the same as the old dual fuel falcons

2012 boot.

RASER · 13-06-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

2012 boot.

image

Goose neck boot hinges.....FAIL

Mr Hardware · 13-06-2012, 03:48 PM

Thanks for the clarification XR6 Martin.
Looks like I had been slightly misinformed - turns out the boot space is improved but not fully.
2010-2011 camry hybrid - 389L
2012 camry hybrid - 421L
regular 2012 camry -515L

Phildo · 15-06-2012, 11:06 AM

I had to replace a taxi a few months ago. What did I buy?

2008 BFIII Wagon. I wouldn't even consider buying a Falcon sedan for taxi use, and can't figure out why so many taxi owners go for sedans.

A wagon will carry a wheelchair, pushbike or old person's walking frame in the back. A sedan won't.

A wagon also has a boring, simple but cheap to maintain back end. No diff bushes, and no squeaky knuckle joints. Just a handful of shackle bushes to replace once a year.

Here in Perth, a car must be less than 5 years old when it becomes a taxi and must be retired when it turns 8 years old.

A BFII/BFIII wagon is low tech compared to an FG, but that's what I'll be sticking to for quite some time. In a couple of years time I'll be hunting down and buying the last of the LPG wagons (they were finished in September 2010).

I'll probably end up being one of the last taxi owners in Perth to use a wagon, and suspect that I'll be scoring quite a few airport jobs. An Egas sedan will fit one suitcase in the boot. With two people you can put the other case in the car, but if it's three or four people then it's going to have to be a wagon.

Vesper Martini · 15-06-2012, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racecraft

THe Prius get better eco than the Camry
On day shift when you really slug the traffic and stop start
Pruis= $10-$12 of ULP
Camry= $19-$22 of ULP
Egas 4 speeder = $28 of LPG
FG 4 speeder with SVI & Territory 4 speed with SVI = $28-32 of LPG + $5 ULP
FG 6 speed with SVI = $30-$35 of LPG + $5 ULP

Prius $25Camry #0

how does the FG 6speed SVI use more than a territory? I would expect it to achieve below 14L/100 on gas
this is not a valid comparison without Kilometers driven

Vesper Martini · 15-06-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phildo

I had to replace a taxi a few months ago. What did I buy?

2008 BFIII Wagon. I wouldn't even consider buying a Falcon sedan for taxi use, and can't figure out why so many taxi owners go for sedans.

A wagon will carry a wheelchair, pushbike or old person's walking frame in the back. A sedan won't.

A wagon also has a boring, simple but cheap to maintain back end. No diff bushes, and no squeaky knuckle joints. Just a handful of shackle bushes to replace once a year.

Here in Perth, a car must be less than 5 years old when it becomes a taxi and must be retired when it turns 8 years old.

A BFII/BFIII wagon is low tech compared to an FG, but that's what I'll be sticking to for quite some time. In a couple of years time I'll be hunting down and buying the last of the LPG wagons (they were finished in September 2010).

I'll probably end up being one of the last taxi owners in Perth to use a wagon, and suspect that I'll be scoring quite a few airport jobs. An Egas sedan will fit one suitcase in the boot. With two people you can put the other case in the car, but if it's three or four people then it's going to have to be a wagon.

Makes sense, you obviously consider the whole running cost, dare i say it how does the commodore LPG wagon compare?

jpd80 · 15-06-2012, 01:19 PM

Some day soon, there will be no more used E-gas BFIII Station wagons at the auctions...

Phildo · 15-06-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Some day soon, there will be no more used E-gas BFIII Station wagons at the auctions...

In about two to three years or so. Cars going through auction now are ranging from 2008 to 2010 models, which means that companies are keeping them for up to four years.

So, that means that there will be some going through auction in 2014 (ie four years after 2010). I'll be buying them.

After that, it will be a matter of trying to find some secondhand privately owned ones.

By then the taxi industry will have hopefully settled on what it's going to stick with for the future (most likely Falcon sedans).

jpd80 · 15-06-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phildo

In about two to three years or so. Cars going through auction now are ranging from 2008 to 2010 models, which means that companies are keeping them for up to four years.

So, that means that there will be some going through auction in 2014 (ie four years after 2010). I'll be buying them.

.

In Queensland, taxis have to be less than five years old.....