Melbourne water storage levels at highest level since 1997

[Barnaby]

http://www.g-mwater.com.au/

Check out the storage in Country Vic. If we get big spring rains we are screwed!

[ebxr8240]

Do they have desalination plant too ??

[Barnaby]

No, we leave them for the guns down in the deep south.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by DENKO

What year model is it? Does it have leather trim and a sunroof? Is it manual or auto?

This thread is posted in the bar for non-automotive related chat...............

[Jason[98.EL]]

this one is for Geelong we are currently sitting at 96.4 but that is not counting in todays rain

http://www.barwonwater.vic.gov.au/learning/storages

[zilo]

In general to those who are desalination critics?

This one's for you......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgukduYJZ44

[mik]

Originally Posted by MAD

How many times did Gippsland flood during the drought?
A dam on the Mitchell River would have been nice and full. And perhaps even saved a few insurance claims as well.

How long did it take the state to act on the drought?
The Mitchell River dam was proposed many years before the desal plant, and had it been actioned would have captured many floods.

Search youtube for "tophers unpopular view". There's a great idea in there about transporting water from one of Tasmania's dams without pumps, god love gravity. That dam also historically is always flushing most of the rainfall it sees out to sea.

the problem with dams is the lunatic greenies get upset if a frog has to be relocated from home, can you imagine them chained up to tree`s and bulldozers if they tried to dam gippsland or god forbid tassy.

[cuz]

I grew up in the country, outside the reaches of 'town supply' water, therefore we were always on water restricted tank supply. When I came to Melbourne in the Early 1990s, I was shocked at the amount of wasted water and even more amazed at the lack of local govt support for household water tanks. Back then they were more worried about losing money from water that was state owned.

I watched with interest when Steve Bracks visited his homelands in the Middle East and toured desal plants. I was worried that he would get tunnel visioned in that direction at all taxpayers expense, all the while ignoring other more viable ( and MUCH MUCH cheaper) options.
A few examples are a dam on the very flood prone Mitchell river ($1.5b) or an even more extreme idea to pipe water from Lake Cethana in Tassie ($2.5b)!!!!
But in 2006 he won the election again on the back of promises like No Desal plant and No North south pipeline

Now the North south pipeline is sealed shut at both ends, never to flow again. Thanks for that. There goes &750 million that we didn't need.
We have a Desal plant that not only blew out in cost to around $3.5 billion but will use a huge amount of electricity (Remember that Carbon Tax??)
On top of that cost is the ongoing cost of paying around $650 million a year to Aquasure (Desal plants owners) for "annual service" payments! AND thats only if we don't use any water!!!! If we do, then its around $750 million.

So, its cost us a BAT load, will continue to cost us a BAT load, wether we use it or not and its gonna chew a BAT load of power too.

Can someone please run this one by me again...

Check this guy out : http://topher.com.au/videos.html

[zilo]

Originally Posted by cuz

I grew up in the country, outside the reaches of 'town supply' water, therefore we were always on water restricted tank supply. When I came to Melbourne in the Early 1990s, I was shocked at the amount of wasted water and even more amazed at the lack of local govt support for household water tanks. Back then they were more worried about losing money from water that was state owned.

I watched with interest when Steve Bracks visited his homelands in the Middle East and toured desal plants. I was worried that he would get tunnel visioned in that direction at all taxpayers expense, all the while ignoring other more viable ( and MUCH MUCH cheaper) options.
A few examples are a dam on the very flood prone Mitchell river ($1.5b) or an even more extreme idea to pipe water from Lake Cethana in Tassie ($2.5b)!!!!
But in 2006 he won the election again on the back of promises like No Desal plant and No North south pipeline

Now the North south pipeline is sealed shut at both ends, never to flow again. Thanks for that. There goes &750 million that we didn't need.
We have a Desal plant that not only blew out in cost to around $3.5 billion but will use a huge amount of electricity (Remember that Carbon Tax??)
On top of that cost is the ongoing cost of paying around $650 million a year to Aquasure (Desal plants owners) for "annual service" payments! AND thats only if we don't use any water!!!! If we do, then its around $750 million.

So, its cost us a BAT load, will continue to cost us a BAT load, wether we use it or not and its gonna chew a BAT load of power too.

Can someone please run this one by me again...

Check this guy out : http://topher.com.au/videos.html

Mate...I have one solution to all your concerns about water in Australia.

Stop excessive population growth due to immigration in Australia.

We have about 200,000+ new migrants every year into the driest continent.

You cannot build dams quick enough to cover that growth.

Only solution is a silver bullet...a desal plant near every major population center.

Give me another option that is scaleable and not reliant on weather patterns and I'll wave the flag you choose to wave too?


(By the way the link you posted is from a guy who thinks there is no energy cost in transporting water hundreds of kilometres to consumers)

[Franco Cozzo]

Makes you wonder if it would be a good idea or even possible to build new dams, then connect them all country wide together with a massive pipe line, so when it floods in a flood prone area or heavy rain seasons it goes all over the country.

[cuz]

Originally Posted by Ugg

Mate...I have one solution to all your concerns about water in Australia.

Stop excessive population growth due to immigration in Australia.

We have about 200,000+ new migrants every year into the driest continent.

You cannot build dams quick enough to cover that growth.

Only solution is a silver bullet...a desal plant near every major population center.

Give me another option that is scaleable and not reliant on weather patterns and I'll wave the flag you choose to wave too?

Hmmm... not really to sure how to answer that one,Ugg.

Bit ridiculous what your saying really. Save water by stopping immigration?
The worlds population, like Australia, is growing rapidly mate. If there is no room for them in their country, let them come here. As long as they do it legally, I've got no problem with that one. Hell, 95% of the people in Australia migrated here. Or had ancestors who did.

Anyways, Back to topic before we get too far gone....
I'm not saying that Desal plants are bad. I think they are a very good solution in some cases, but not the be all and end all of water supply.
In land-locked desert countries in the Middle East, I'm sure they are a life saving must have... but here in Melbourne, there were (and still are!!) much more viable cheaper options that could have been employed BEFORE we built a Desal plant.

You say that we cannot build dams quick enough to keep up with population. Now while that may be true, but Victoria pretty much stopped altogether! Dams are just a part of a water supply solution. If the Pollies grew a pair and told the Greenies that no dams means no water, which means no people to look at the animals they are worried about, then we wouldn't have been in such trouble during our latest drought.

Victoria probably does need a desal plant but did it really need to be built first? Or could we have tried something else instead??

Originally Posted by Ugg

(By the way the link you posted is from a guy who thinks there is no energy cost in transporting water hundreds of kilometres to consumers)

I'm going to guess you are questioning how to get water from a dam in Tassie, down a pipe to Victoria. Quite simple. That dam is a couple of hundred feet above sea level, Most of Victoria isn't.
Basic law of nature mate. Water pressure. Get a whole heap of water up high, put a hose and tap on it. Turn the tap on and HEY PRESTO!!!! Water comes out.

How do your magic desal bullets plan on transporting its already expensive to produce water to its millions of customers? Polystyrene cups????

[mik]

Originally Posted by cuz

I grew up in the country, outside the reaches of 'town supply' water, therefore we were always on water restricted tank supply. When I came to Melbourne in the Early 1990s, I was shocked at the amount of wasted water and even more amazed at the lack of local govt support for household water tanks. Back then they were more worried about losing money from water that was state owned.

I watched with interest when Steve Bracks visited his homelands in the Middle East and toured desal plants. I was worried that he would get tunnel visioned in that direction at all taxpayers expense, all the while ignoring other more viable ( and MUCH MUCH cheaper) options.
A few examples are a dam on the very flood prone Mitchell river ($1.5b) or an even more extreme idea to pipe water from Lake Cethana in Tassie ($2.5b)!!!!
But in 2006 he won the election again on the back of promises like No Desal plant and No North south pipeline

Now the North south pipeline is sealed shut at both ends, never to flow again. Thanks for that. There goes &750 million that we didn't need.
We have a Desal plant that not only blew out in cost to around $3.5 billion but will use a huge amount of electricity (Remember that Carbon Tax??)
On top of that cost is the ongoing cost of paying around $650 million a year to Aquasure (Desal plants owners) for "annual service" payments! AND thats only if we don't use any water!!!! If we do, then its around $750 million.

So, its cost us a BAT load, will continue to cost us a BAT load, wether we use it or not and its gonna chew a BAT load of power too.

Can someone please run this one by me again...

Check this guy out : http://topher.com.au/videos.html

funny you should mention that about water tanks in the city, i was having a yak with my old aunty a while ago, she built a house in the 50`s in springvale(melb), she wanted to put in a water tank(she was from the country) .
but was knocked back by the council, told she would be fined if she did so.

[cuz]

Originally Posted by mik

funny you should mention that about water tanks in the city, i was having a yak with my old aunty a while ago, she built a house in the 50`s in springvale(melb), she wanted to put in a water tank(she was from the country) .
but was knocked back by the council, told she would be fined if she did so.

One bloke we did a reno/Extn for in Elsternwick, grew Orchids for competitions.
He was fussy and didn't trust tap water on his flowers because of all the 'chemicals' the put in it!!! His words, NOT mine!
So he applied numerous times to the council to be allowed to put in a rain water catch tank, for the sole purpose of watering his prized orchids.
They turned him down every time, once giving the reason that he would 'hook it up to his toilet and use it to flush' !!!!

[karj]

Originally Posted by cuz

One bloke we did a reno/Extn for in Elsternwick, grew Orchids for competitions.
He was fussy and didn't trust tap water on his flowers because of all the 'chemicals' the put in it!!! His words, NOT mine!
So he applied numerous times to the council to be allowed to put in a rain water catch tank, for the sole purpose of watering his prized orchids.
They turned him down every time, once giving the reason that he would 'hook it up to his toilet and use it to flush' !!!!

How long ago was that? I know the rules in SA regarding water tanks changed sometime in the last decade and would have thought Victoria would be similar.

Originally Posted by SA building rules regarding water tanks

South Australian building rules require that new dwellings, and some extensions or alterations, have an additional water supply to supplement mains water... The additional water supply must be plumbed to a toilet, a water heater or to all cold water outlets in the laundry of the home. The same rules apply to new extensions or alterations where the extension or alteration is greater than 50 square metres and includes a toilet, water heater or laundry cold water outlet.

[Silver Ghia]

IIRC desal plants last only 30 years? What happens then?

They use heaps of electricity we dont have, what it uses is at escalating costs with carbon taxes etc. As a result more power will be cut to residential areas due to shortages, because of this white elephant. The Mitchell dam would have been a far more practical and less costly solution.

Why dont they make it compulsory for all new houses and buildings to be plumbed so all water from the roof is harvested into appropriate sized tanks, which are plumbed to toilets etc. so to minimise dependency on mains water?

Not to mention the various recycled water schemes that appear to have ground to a halt.

Ridiculous situation until the next drought when all of a sudden they start thinking of more ideas as the water levels go down again, when the population has increased significantly from what it is now. The time to act is NOW!!

[cuz]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

IIRC desal plants last only 30 years? What happens then?

They use heaps of electricity we dont have, what it uses is at escalating costs with carbon taxes etc. As a result more power will be cut to residential areas due to shortages, because of this white elephant. The Mitchell dam would have been a far more practical and less costly solution.

Why dont they make it compulsory for all new houses and buildings to be plumbed so all water from the roof is harvested into appropriate sized tanks, which are plumbed to toilets etc. so to minimise dependency on mains water?

Not to mention the various recycled water schemes that appear to have ground to a halt.

Ridiculous situation until the next drought when all of a sudden they start thinking of more ideas as the water levels go down again, when the population has increased significantly from what it is now. The time to act is NOW!!

Wayyyy too late mate!
This threads topic is a political tool here in Victoria.
Its helped along by the mainstream media... Just like everything else in countries like our own.
Unfortunately we are bound by the people we elect.
Maybe we can elect pollies that we can trust next time????

[zilo]

Originally Posted by cuz

Hmmm... not really to sure how to answer that one,Ugg.

Bit ridiculous what your saying really. Save water by stopping immigration?
The worlds population, like Australia, is growing rapidly mate. If there is no room for them in their country, let them come here. As long as they do it legally, I've got no problem with that one. Hell, 95% of the people in Australia migrated here. Or had ancestors who did.

Pheww....sorry mate, my comment is ridiculous and that's your reply?

Surely you don't mean that any country that has irresponsible population policies should just send their overflow here?
To the driest continent on earth?

Originally Posted by cuz

Victoria probably does need a desal plant but did it really need to be built first? Or could we have tried something else instead??

We already have a humungous Thompson dam that was empty.
Did you want to build another empty dam alongside it instead of a desal?

Nobody knew we would have record rainfall as we have recently.

Originally Posted by -cuz

I'm going to guess you are questioning how to get water from a dam in Tassie, down a pipe to Victoria. Quite simple. That dam is a couple of hundred feet above sea level, Most of Victoria isn't.
Basic law of nature mate. Water pressure. Get a whole heap of water up high, put a hose and tap on it. Turn the tap on and HEY PRESTO!!!! Water comes out.

Oh my goodness, I don't think that would work in the manner you describe.

For a start there is a phenomenon called surface friction in the pipe which would defeat any height advantage you think you have in about 5 kilometres of pipe....unless you are using one 20 metres diameter?

It takes a watt of energy to move water (1Kg) one metre in SI units.
How many gigalitres and how many hundreds of kilometres did you say you want to move this water from tassie to where?

Desal plants are placed close to population centres or existing reticulation systems to mitigate transmission losses.
In Melbourne's case it was placed to work in conjunction with the Eastern waste treatment plant, thereby re using water over and over again.
A dam can't do that on it's own....

Also....I don't suppose it matters that Tassie had water restrictions at the same time as melbourne does it ?

Originally Posted by cuz

How do your magic desal bullets plan on transporting its already expensive to produce water to its millions of customers? Polystyrene cups????

Water from a RO membrane desal comes out pressurised.
(Well it does in my domestic one that I put together.)

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Ugg

Oh my goodness, I don't think that would work in the manner you describe.

For a start there is a phenomenon called surface friction in the pipe which would defeat any height advantage you think you have in about 5 kilometres of pipe....unless you are using one 20 metres diameter?

It takes a watt of energy to move water (1Kg) one metre in SI units.
How many gigalitres and how many hundreds of kilometres did you say you want to move this water from tassie to where?

Sorry, but that is exactly how it works. The pipe doesn't even need to be particularly strong as the pressures at the bottom of Bass Straight will be equal on the inside and outside of the pipe.
No matter the length of the pipe; If one end is higher than the other, water will flow. When you increase the height difference (pressure/velocity), the pipe's friction factor will be a factor in the final flow rate, but it will never stop it.

Originally Posted by Ugg

Also....I don't suppose it matters that Tassie had water restrictions at the same time as melbourne does it ?

Tassie's water supply infrastructure leaves a lot to be desired.
One side is wet, the other in drought.

[LOWAU]

Originally Posted by Ugg

We already have a humungous Thompson dam that was empty.
Did you want to build another empty dam alongside it instead of a desal

The Thompson dam fills slowly but holds a lot. It's usually used to fill other dams when they are empty.
A new dam is needed, it would let the thompson fill up and only be used in times of drought. If full it can hold enough water for 3 years.

It takes an enormous amount of brown coal created power to process sea water. No living creature can survive in the area in the ocean that the desal plant dumps its salt. It is also an expensive little bugger. Once a dam is built it has little ongoing cost and environmental impact compared to a desal plant.

Originally Posted by Ugg

Water from a RO membrane desal comes out pressurised.
(Well it does in my domestic one that I put together.)

Where do you think the water pressure comes from? It's through water pumps that run on electricity.

[LOWAU]

The government left it too long before acting on the water issue, that's why it panicked and implemented the "quick fix" desal plant and stupid pipeline.
Also the alliance to the greens didn't help.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by LOWAU

The government left it too long before acting on the water issue, that's why it panicked and implemented the "quick fix" desal plant and stupid pipeline.
Also the alliance to the greens didn't help.

Well said. Building another dam would have worked as it would have caught excess water during wet times which could have ben stored for drought periods. As can be seen by a number of Victorian floods in recent years, there is plenty of excess water which could have been caught and stored.

[BadMax]

Originally Posted by Ugg

Mate...I have one solution to all your concerns about water in Australia.

Stop excessive population growth due to immigration in Australia.

We have about 200,000+ new migrants every year into the driest continent.

I'm with you on that one...Considering the two largest groups of immigrants are Poms and Kiwi's...Wait a sec, Poms don't bathe anyway

[Elks]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Well said. Building another dam would have worked as it would have caught excess water during wet times which could have ben stored for drought periods.

But building even 27 dams would have done Zero without rain to fill them. And after 10 years of drought there was only talk of climate change and global warming, not impending floods. .... Hence the desal plant. Imaging the outcry if we had not built the thing and we ran out time and then water.

The things that irk me are paying so much extra in penalties to get it built in a hurry just so it can sit there for a few deacades until we need it.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by LOWAU

The Thompson dam fills slowly but holds a lot. It's usually used to fill other dams when they are empty.
A new dam is needed, it would let the thompson fill up and only be used in times of drought. If full it can hold enough water for 3 years.

sure...what do we do for the other 7 years when the next drought comes along?
It hasn't ever been this full in 30 years....

Originally Posted by LOWAU

It takes an enormous amount of brown coal created power to process sea water.

It takes 2kw to make a thousand litres of potable water.
I know that as a fact...I do it every summer without a single ounce of brown coal.

It takes a huge amount of power to pump water from a dam too.

Originally Posted by LOWAU

No living creature can survive in the area in the ocean that the desal plant dumps its salt.

err...not true, it is 20% added on discharge with respect to intake.

Hardly toxic by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally Posted by LOWAU

Once a dam is built it has little ongoing cost and environmental impact compared to a desal plant.

Err...no, it takes a lot of maintenace for the 30 or so pumping stations, it ain't just a dam in a paddock like the farm dams.
You still need a huge piece of infrastructure to clean up the water from faeces and agricultural run off etc etc etc.

part of the RO process is a 0.6 micron filter, even viruses don't get through that...result? less water treatment needed in terms of chlorination etc.

Environmentally dams are not as lovely for the environment as you think, in fact a disaster due to disruption of environmental flows downstream...trees die, wildlife dies, salinity in the soil affected when it eventually rains....the list goes on....

Originally Posted by LOWAU

Where do you think the water pressure comes from? It's through water pumps that run on electricity.

Dams use just as many pumps, dams are generally located a lot further from population centres than desal plants which can be right next to a coastal city.

[mik]

Originally Posted by cuz

One bloke we did a reno/Extn for in Elsternwick, grew Orchids for competitions.
He was fussy and didn't trust tap water on his flowers because of all the 'chemicals' the put in it!!! His words, NOT mine!
So he applied numerous times to the council to be allowed to put in a rain water catch tank, for the sole purpose of watering his prized orchids.
They turned him down every time, once giving the reason that he would 'hook it up to his toilet and use it to flush' !!!!

the councils logic some times is very confusing

[cuz]

Originally Posted by Ugg

It takes 2kw to make a thousand litres of potable water.
I know that as a fact...I do it every summer without a single ounce of brown coal.

Nice one Ugg... Now come back to the real world and do the same thing without electricity.

Originally Posted by Ugg

err...not true, it is 20% added on discharge with respect to intake.

Hardly toxic by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmmm.... Try putting 20% extra salt on or in EVERYTHING you eat.
Also the marine life have to swim in that extra 20%

Originally Posted by Ugg

Err...no, it takes a lot of maintenace for the 30 or so pumping stations, it ain't just a dam in a paddock like the farm dams.
You still need a huge piece of infrastructure to clean up the water from faeces and agricultural run off etc etc etc.

Dams use just as many pumps, dams are generally located a lot further from population centres than desal plants which can be right next to a coastal city.

Maintenance, infrastructure, pumping stations all cost money.. True. Very true
BUT, if you add up the initial costs for the new dam plus the above and add it all up, it will not even come close to the initial cost of the desal.
PLUS, we then have to pay millions each year even if its not producing water!!!

I never said the desal plant was not needed for Victoria, I'm just saying that there were better, cheaper options.

[chamb0]

I thought the desal energy requirement was going to be offset through purchasing renewable energy, is this still the case?

Whether we agree with it or not the new dam proposals were rejected on the grounds that they were considered too risky a solution over the long term. Some of the key factors which influenced that decision were Vic's unreliable, fluctuating rainfall and regular droughts, the forecast for reduced average runoff into the future and a growing population. Almost all of Melbourne's water is rainfall dependant, and considering the effects of the El Nino cycle, the government wanted to mitigate this risk by diversifying the water supply rather than investing in another river-based solution.

Because there's always so many stakeholders (usually at odds with each other) in water issues it makes them pretty complicated. The 2005 SKM report commissioned by DSE looked at the Mitchell river scheme and found that the unmanageable costs - loss of productive farmland, impacts to agriculture/tourism/commerce downstream, heavy environmental/water quality consequences-especially to the Gippsland Lakes (which have internationally significant RAMSAR wetlands associated with them), displacing a couple of townships etc - were significant drawbacks that were just going to create as complex a set of problems as damming it might solve.

Each country has it's own unique set of conditions and problems but there's a general trend away from building dams for water supply in many parts of the world for these and other reasons. The US for example are starting to decommission quite a few. Undertaking good water conservation strategies and reducing inefficiencies is usually more cost-effective than building new dams.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by cuz

Nice one Ugg... Now come back to the real world and do the same thing without electricity..

If you really want me to build you a deasal unit that doesn't work on electricity I can, simply build a wind turbine pumping water through a fibreglass mebrane instead of first converting wind power to electricity simply drive a mechanical pumpfor a RO plant and just make water directly.

Reverse osmosis doesn't give a rats fart about how you drive the pressure pump....you can even get your donkey going around in circles driving the pump if you want.

Good enough for you?

Originally Posted by cuz

Hmmm.... Try putting 20% extra salt on or in EVERYTHING you eat.
Also the marine life have to swim in that extra 20%.

Are you seriously concerned about a 50 square metre discharge point in bass strait which gets diluted whithin a nano second?

Too much Alan Jones me thinks...

Originally Posted by cuz

Maintenance, infrastructure, pumping stations all cost money.. True. Very true
BUT, if you add up the initial costs for the new dam plus the above and add it all up, it will not even come close to the initial cost of the desal.
PLUS, we then have to pay millions each year even if its not producing water!!!.

We pay millions of dollars a year maintaining dams when they are empty.

Originally Posted by cuz

I never said the desal plant was not needed for Victoria, I'm just saying that there were better, cheaper options.

I am delighted to hear that you have some better solutions.

Now let's hear about them please?

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I am delighted to hear that you have some better solutions.

Now let's hear about them please?

Pipeline from Tas has already been mentioned.
And before you try to argue about droughts, blah blah blah... If it is OK to base future choices on historical data of drought in VIC, then I'm sure it would be fine to base future choices on historical data from that dam and river system. (Goose - Gander)
Just relying on gravity alone would pump more than double what the desal plant will produce, and that amount is very little of what naturally overflows from that dam out to sea.

Lets not forget just how prone the Mitchell River is to flood, and how many times it did flood during the drought in Victoria.

Agreed, the desal is not the worst idea ever, it would have been good if it could have tied in with the building of a Nuclear power plant and use the heated cooling tower water to aid in the desalinisation process. And the contracts for the plant could have been far better written and managed.

But outside of that, there are two great ideas above that would cost less in the long run, and have historical data to back them up.

[cuz]

Originally Posted by Ugg

Reverse osmosis doesn't give a rats fart about how you drive the pressure pump....you can even get your donkey going around in circles driving the pump if you want.

I really don't want to hear about what you do to your donkey.
Maybe you and your donkey could get a job turning the pumps at the desal??? Or you could build some of your amazing wind turbines and then power it with all the hot air thats pumping out your mouth?

Originally Posted by Ugg

Are you seriously concerned about a 50 square metre discharge point in bass strait which gets diluted whithin a nano second?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Ugg

We pay millions of dollars a year maintaining dams when they are empty.

Thats true. DAMS. Multiple DAMS. and I'll bet that all that maintenance $$$$ don't add up to anywhere near the cost of the desal when its not producing?
AND we don't have to pay MILLIONS for the water that comes from dams when they are producing.

Originally Posted by Ugg

I am delighted to hear that you have some better solutions.

Now let's hear about them please?

Nearly everyone else who has contributed to this thread has listed better ideas. Try reading some....