Nelson Mandela

[Serial_Fool]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

And your point.
If it wasn't for the genocide the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi) would be seen in a completely different light. (hard to process I know)
A nationally progressive party that introduced many policies our own governments use today, that many of us take for granted or even aspire too. (besides geoncide and annexation)
A state funded Welfare system, animal rights, national parks, medical breakthroughs (experimentation on humans was rife across the globe back then) the mass produced peoples car, autobahns, rocketry propaganda and film.
I'm not suggesting a change of opinion for the Nazi party and Hitler etal but there are always two sides to a story and two matching opinions. From obvious evil came some good and from good comes absolute evil.

JP

Don't forget state sanctioned euthanasia.....

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

And your point.
If it wasn't for the genocide the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi) would be seen in a completely different light. (hard to process I know)
A nationally progressive party that introduced many policies our own governments use today, that many of us take for granted or even aspire too. (besides geoncide and annexation)
A state funded Welfare system, animal rights, national parks, medical breakthroughs (experimentation on humans was rife across the globe back then) the mass produced peoples car, autobahns, rocketry propaganda and film.
I'm not suggesting a change of opinion for the Nazi party and Hitler etal but there are always two sides to a story and two matching opinions. From obvious evil came some good and from good comes absolute evil.

JP

Please tell me you are not serious , words cannot describe the disgust and anger that your comments cause me . Generations of people of all nationalities were lost because of that megalomaniac and you think a f'ing autobahn and a peoples car or worse still film kinda makes up for it . Who put those ideas in your head , how can you even entertain those thoughts . I suggest you go to your local RSL and start debating it with the regulars , if you haven't been banned already you soon will be AFTER the 75 year old ex serviceman decks you , you pompous twit .

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Please tell me you are not serious , words cannot describe the disgust and anger that your comments cause me . Generations of people of all nationalities were lost because of that megalomaniac and you think a f'ing autobahn and a peoples car or worse still film kinda makes up for it . Who put those ideas in your head , how can you even entertain those thoughts . I suggest you go to your local RSL and start debating it with the regulars , if you haven't been banned already you soon will be AFTER the 75 year old ex serviceman decks you , you pompous twit .

Mate not sure what your reading but nowhere do I say the Nazi party was good nor do I say I support the genocide and annexation of Poland. I simply stated that despite all the bad they perpetrated, they did do somethings that are heralded as positive like state funded welfare, something Australia has adopted amongst many other countries.
My point is from what was to be synonymous with pure evil came some positive outcomes, merely responding to a previous posters decree that by a certain reading the Nazi party, in particular Adlof Hitler was to be aspired too.
In the context of this thread and my statements good can come from evil as much as evil can come from good, Mandela did what he needed to achieve the outcomes he believed in, despite his Machiavellian methods.

JP

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Please tell me you are not serious , words cannot describe the disgust and anger that your comments cause me . Generations of people of all nationalities were lost because of that megalomaniac and you think a f'ing autobahn and a peoples car or worse still film kinda makes up for it . Who put those ideas in your head , how can you even entertain those thoughts . I suggest you go to your local RSL and start debating it with the regulars , if you haven't been banned already you soon will be AFTER the 75 year old ex serviceman decks you , you pompous twit .

Far too blinded by the evil the man caused to see the amount of good he gave his people. Without Hitler, Germany would NOT be the powerhouse it is today. He rebuilt his country and everything he ever did he believed was for the good of his people. He gave them jobs, healthcare, re-established the economy, revolutionized government, he gave his people a reason to continue. After WW1, Germany was a slum. It was a horrible place to live and Hitler changed all of that. Then of course he went insane and killed million of people but that doesn't change the amount of good that he did for his country. Sometimes you need to look at the silver lining to appreciate some people. Even monsters.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Far too blinded by the evil the man caused to see the amount of good he gave his people. Without Hitler, Germany would NOT be the powerhouse it is today. He rebuilt his country and everything he ever did he believed was for the good of his people. He gave them jobs, healthcare, re-established the economy, revolutionized government, he gave his people a reason to continue. After WW1, Germany was a slum. It was a horrible place to live and Hitler changed all of that. Then of course he went insane and killed million of people but that doesn't change the amount of good that he did for his country. Sometimes you need to look at the silver lining to appreciate some people. Even monsters.

My point exactly. One mans terrorist or evil doer is anothers saviour. the good does not excuse the bad, but the good did exist, it still resonates today. As with Mandela, in his case the good far outweighs the bad in my and maybe even histories opinion.

JP

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Far too blinded by the evil the man caused to see the amount of good he gave his people. Without Hitler, Germany would NOT be the powerhouse it is today. He rebuilt his country and everything he ever did he believed was for the good of his people. He gave them jobs, healthcare, re-established the economy, revolutionized government, he gave his people a reason to continue. After WW1, Germany was a slum. It was a horrible place to live and Hitler changed all of that. Then of course he went insane and killed million of people but that doesn't change the amount of good that he did for his country. Sometimes you need to look at the silver lining to appreciate some people. Even monsters.

These people suffered horribly. You might not be so forthcoming with praise if you were a first hand victim of his madness. Hitler was a brilliant politician, an extremely brave soldier in WW1 and a thoroughly despicable human being...

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by superyob

These people suffered horribly. You might not be so forthcoming with praise if you were a first hand victim of his madness. Hitler was a brilliant politician, an extremely brave soldier in WW1 and a thoroughly despicable human being...

And I have never, ever denied any of that but you cannot ignore the great man for what he was. There is only a very small handful of people that accomplished what he did. He was most certainly a horrible, horrible person but do not take away from the greatness that he achieved.

[|||]

from mourning nelson mandela to praising hitler in less than one page. what a great forum

[superyob]

Originally Posted by |||

from mourning nelson mandela to praising hitler in less than one page. what a great forum

Point taken... I know it's not actually funny but I did have a chuckle when you pointed that out...

[Moby Vic]

What about the fiasco with the sign language interpreter?

http://www.everyjoe.com/2013/12/12/p...r-funny-gifs#2

[Madaya]

Originally Posted by Kable72

And I have never, ever denied any of that but you cannot ignore the great man for what he was. There is only a very small handful of people that accomplished what he did. He was most certainly a horrible, horrible person but do not take away from the greatness that he achieved.

Great man. Err, he hated Jews, Blacks, Asians, he wasn't even born in Germany. He hated the Polish, even more than the Russians. He hated democracy. When his armed ramshackle mob marched on The Bavarian War Ministry in their first attempt to gain power (after the Beer Hall Putsch), the security forces open fire in self defence, killing 16 Nazi's, losing 4 of their own. Hitler ran away.
Once he gained power, he had the friends and comrades that got him there, executed. His lot burnt down the Reichstag (German parliament house), blamed the communists and he seized absolute power - dictatorship. Parents had to sign their children up for the Hitler Youth or they were sent off to concentration camps. Churches had to preach the Nazi way, or the priests were sent off too. Trade Unions where banned, many of the leaders shot or imprisoned. Detention without trial. Execution without trial. No legal defence as defending lawyers ended up either dead or in a camp. The German worker took a 25% paycut - all of them (except the party high ups of course). The parliament met only six times during his entire reign, and only Nazi's could attend parliament, anyone with a different point of view was rounded and etc etc. And this was against his own people.
Read Mein Kampf, and, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer
available on Kindle. These books will change your view.
Great men and women lay down their lives for their friends, their people and their country.
Simply, he didn't.
Nelson did.

[gtfpv]

unions supported NELSON MANDELLA AND HELPED GET RID OF APARTHEID .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muppm...ature=youtu.be

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Far too blinded by the evil the man caused to see the amount of good he gave his people. Without Hitler, Germany would NOT be the powerhouse it is today. He rebuilt his country and everything he ever did he believed was for the good of his people. He gave them jobs, healthcare, re-established the economy, revolutionized government, he gave his people a reason to continue. After WW1, Germany was a slum. It was a horrible place to live and Hitler changed all of that. Then of course he went insane and killed million of people but that doesn't change the amount of good that he did for his country. Sometimes you need to look at the silver lining to appreciate some people. Even monsters.

I think you're rewriting history a fair bit. Whilst Germany was in a bad way post WW1, it is a long bow to stretch to say he alone rebuilt the nation.

One thing is certain, by the time the one testicled SOB was dead along with his murderous cronies, Germany was utterly destroyed. Nearly every major city was bombed and flattened.

But Germany rebuilt, and without Adolph (or anyone like him) in sight - go figure.

I think Germany is where it is today because of the German hard work ethos and high skilled people not because it was run by a psychopath. Just look at the state of the formed USSR, which was run by series of corrupt and murderous psychopaths you wouldn't call it successful would you? What was so different between Stalin and Adolph.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

From a colonial point of view the colonisers are never wrong, they bring white rules, commerce and the so called nation state. (who says that is good, desireable or called for... usually only white people?)

From the local African tribes point of view the colonisers were wrong because they were not invited, enforced enslavement, persecution and caused many of the troubles that Africa faces today. Their actions resulted in Apartheid, a loss of Freedom.
In my mind the whites of history are to blame, because they were in the wrong. I don't believe what White cultures have offered the world is the ultimate goal of all earths peoples.
And how dare we as white people force our different ideals on others, under the guise of we know better, when the reality was the whites needed to control the locals to gain financial benefit of trade, mining, manufacturing and pillage of the old world.

JP

Wrong.
If it was not for England etc coming to Africa the people would still be living in the madness they always did, fighting each other year in year out.
To point out that it was white people who were the problem and had done this or that is a uneducated point of view that lacks depth.
I find the average aussie is a total ignorant fool as to the real problems and all you hear is pathetic one sided view of dolts who push a hair brain fantasy world view. it makes me sick to put up with it all the time.
I worked with two black as the ace of spades South Africans and they pointed out to me the truth and they were well educated christian people and they feared for their life's of other blacks that would kill them on the spot because they were from a different tribe.
It's not all Rosey like the TV love to push at all.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by castellan

Wrong.
If it was not for England etc coming to Africa the people would still be living in the madness they always did, fighting each other year in year out.

RIGHT!
And its this colonial white opinion that states saving that savages is what is the right thing. Who has the right to say how you lives is wrong that you will be better of if you do it our way.
If you subscribe to this point of view then you must sell anything ford you own and replace with Kia. Becuase I believe you will be better off for doing it.
But you wont because you don't believe I have authority over you. And that is no different to colonialism except they used force or the threat of it and other control devices to 'convince' the savages.
And how is one tribe killing another any different to modern white behavior. WW1 WW2, Cosovo, Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq, etc etc etc. and pretty much wherever you look whites killing blacks, asian, whites themselves others etc.
As a rule of thumb Sub saharan Africans have the darkest skin, the so called 'black as ace of spades' are more likely Nigerian, Congoneese etc. the south Africans are more golden, olive and lighter. Are you sure your quoted sources are legit.

Just because you are white does not mean you can dictate to the rest of the non white world how they should live, what they should believe and who should rule them.

JP

[yakcam]

This is very, very close to a political thread, but I remember one similar to this a few years ago, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was about. And the Moderators let it stay open and I applauded them then for it, and I do for this one too.

Mr Mandela was not quite the man most people seem to think he was and I think some research into to him would be very enlightening/sickening. As for Winnie... well, the necklace reffered to earlier in this thread is commonly known as the Winnie Mandela necklace, look it up.

Collateral damage my ***!!!

Cheers,

Kraig

[castellan]

Originally Posted by cheap

I think you're rewriting history a fair bit. Whilst Germany was in a bad way post WW1, it is a long bow to stretch to say he alone rebuilt the nation.

One thing is certain, by the time the one testicled SOB was dead along with his murderous cronies, Germany was utterly destroyed. Nearly every major city was bombed and flattened.

But Germany rebuilt, and without Adolph (or anyone like him) in sight - go figure.

I think Germany is where it is today because of the German hard work ethos and high skilled people not because it was run by a psychopath. Just look at the state of the formed USSR, which was run by series of corrupt and murderous psychopaths you wouldn't call it successful would you? What was so different between Stalin and Adolph.

The main point of the difference was that Hitler had faith in a people and Starlin was that he had no faith in his mob as to why his point of view is to control them all in a way that he had to.
Hitlers position is much the same as our modern day world is heading in a way and the problem is our people are so naive, why ? because most have no idea what Hitler was really on about and they don't want to know to be truthful, as they are happy to be ignorant. i say Hitler pushed much the same tactics as they do today, Political Correctness was his and Stalin's puppy but today it's just used in a fabian way but the ends are the same, it's evil pure evil when you comprend it all. we are being lead down the garden path and it's so calculating and it's destroying the very foundations of a people.
We may of won the war but have lost the battle, it's a creep show ! and the blind leading the blind. it sickens me to have to put up with it all to know that people went to war and have no idea what they were truly fighting for. but the ones that did know, boy were they angered to see what is push today.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

RIGHT!
And its this colonial white opinion that states saving that savages is what is the right thing. Who has the right to say how you lives is wrong that you will be better of if you do it our way.
If you subscribe to this point of view then you must sell anything ford you own and replace with Kia. Becuase I believe you will be better off for doing it.
But you wont because you don't believe I have authority over you. And that is no different to colonialism except they used force or the threat of it and other control devices to 'convince' the savages.
And how is one tribe killing another any different to modern white behavior. WW1 WW2, Cosovo, Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq, etc etc etc. and pretty much wherever you look whites killing blacks, asian, whites themselves others etc.
As a rule of thumb Sub saharan Africans have the darkest skin, the so called 'black as ace of spades' are more likely Nigerian, Congoneese etc. the south Africans are more golden, olive and lighter. Are you sure your quoted sources are legit.

Just because you are white does not mean you can dictate to the rest of the non white world how they should live, what they should believe and who should rule them.

JP

I do agree with you to a point. However, colonisation is a human endeavour, not solely a white pursuit of the 18/19th century. For example, Ghengis Khan (Asian), the spread of Islam until the Spanish Reconquista (Middle Eastern/Arabic), The Great South East Asian Cooperative Sphere (Japan). These examples alone transcend the tribal squabbles of regional areas and point to nature of humanity, not just whites... The whites just became very efficient at what is essentially human trait... Also, while your points are valid in the here and now, they cannot be applied to a time when people actually thought that they had a God/Allah given right to do this or that...

[superyob]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

RIGHT!

As a rule of thumb Sub saharan Africans have the darkest skin, the so called 'black as ace of spades' are more likely Nigerian, Congoneese etc. the south Africans are more golden, olive and lighter.

JP

I used to live in Bougainville Island, PNG, and some of the natives were so black that they almost had a purple-ish tinge to them. (if that makes sense...)

[Corzza]

Watching that service in his home town of Qunu makes me proud to be an African! RIP

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Corzza

Watching that service in his home town of Qunu makes me proud to be an African! RIP

So why are you here in Oz? Not having a go at you, just interested in your story... Do you think Mandela made a positive difference to the lives of all in RSA?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by superyob

I used to live in Bougainville Island, PNG, and some of the natives were so black that they almost had a purple-ish tinge to them. (if that makes sense...)

Yeah the closer you get to the equator the darker the skin generally as a evolution to deal with the sun. PNG is quite close RSA is further away.

JP

[Corzza]

Originally Posted by superyob

So why are you here in Oz? Not having a go at you, just interested in your story... Do you think Mandela made a positive difference to the lives of all in RSA?

I was given the opportunity to move over here with the family and jumped at the chance. If I had the chance I would move back and contribute to my home land. Mandela, yes he did make a positive change. if he was not released from prison can you imagine what would have become of South Africa? Sanctions stopped the country from growing, there would be civil wars left right and centre and it would become just like the other north african countries in a bit of strife at the moment. The country has developed for the better, sport, economy, education. It is the current idiots running the show that are stuffing it up for everyone else.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Corzza

I was given the opportunity to move over here with the family and jumped at the chance. If I had the chance I would move back and contribute to my home land. Mandela, yes he did make a positive change. if he was not released from prison can you imagine what would have become of South Africa? Sanctions stopped the country from growing, there would be civil wars left right and centre and it would become just like the other north african countries in a bit of strife at the moment. The country has developed for the better, sport, economy, education. It is the current idiots running the show that are stuffing it up for everyone else.

Are you referring to the current government? What are they doing wrong?

[castellan]

Originally Posted by superyob

I used to live in Bougainville Island, PNG, and some of the natives were so black that they almost had a purple-ish tinge to them. (if that makes sense...)

What i meant was more along the line of they had no white man's blood line at all.
Yes they were black black but not blue black like some are, just saying because jpblue1000 is carrying on a bit over the top and all, and i know who they are and i don't need jpblue to push that i don't know who they are.

I know 3 mates that are part black who would not go back to SA for anything.

If one thinks i am negative to some race for prejudice reasons it is not so at all as i am a contractor and i steer clear of white SA people when it comes to contracting and money, i have had a gut full of them and you know after learning the hard way and i don't give a toss what other people think, but my own personal experience is what it is and i am not changing my view point for some dim witted Politically Correct modern day fools that live in a dream world and they would not know jack or give a toss about reality as they can't see the big picture because they can't handle the truth and love to live a lie.

I am amazed at the rubbish TV pushes and people sit and swallow it all and not to mention the schools type of rainbow nazi brainwashing creep show and all. the world has gone mad.

[Corzza]

Originally Posted by superyob

Are you referring to the current government? What are they doing wrong?

Yes corrupt sons of guns who are looking out for themselves. Zuma is a clown and his own people know it.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Far too blinded by the evil the man caused to see the amount of good he gave his people. Without Hitler, Germany would NOT be the powerhouse it is today. He rebuilt his country and everything he ever did he believed was for the good of his people. He gave them jobs, healthcare, re-established the economy, revolutionized government, he gave his people a reason to continue. After WW1, Germany was a slum. It was a horrible place to live and Hitler changed all of that. Then of course he went insane and killed million of people but that doesn't change the amount of good that he did for his country. Sometimes you need to look at the silver lining to appreciate some people. Even monsters.

You are one sick puppy mate , there was no silver lining . End of story ,not for those that went through it and their families .

[castellan]

Originally Posted by GREGL

You are one sick puppy mate , there was no silver lining . End of story ,not for those that went through it and their families .

I think kable72 is someone who knows a bit more about the truth of Hitler than that of the average aussie short sighted dill.
I have an Hebrew sir name so i have looked into all this stuff in depth and i must say what i learned at school about it all was very basic and very one sided and my mothers extream hatred of Germans was over the top but understandable as there nation was invaded and all.
When i started looking into the in depth history i was shocked to find that Hitler was not the person i thought he was at all, i had been painted a picture that was only part of the story and not truly educated at all.
When education focus on all the bad of something that's not an education.
I can see much of the evil of Hitlers cunning ways in our own australian society today and it reeks of evil and filth as they push the same type of disgusting filthy Political Correct trash as Hitler and Stalin did, brainwashing people. but this time it's just in a fabian way.
It's a creep show. and people have not learned jack at all and will go on repeating the same mistakes again and again.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by castellan

I think kable72 is someone who knows a bit more about the truth of Hitler than that of the average aussie short sighted dill.
I have an Hebrew sir name so i have looked into all this stuff in depth and i must say what i learned at school about it all was very basic and very one sided and my mothers extream hatred of Germans was over the top but understandable as there nation was invaded and all.
When i started looking into the in depth history i was shocked to find that Hitler was not the person i thought he was at all, i had been painted a picture that was only part of the story and not truly educated at all.
When education focus on all the bad of something that's not an education.
I can see much of the evil of Hitlers cunning ways in our own australian society today and it reeks of evil and filth as they push the same type of disgusting filthy Political Correct trash as Hitler and Stalin did, brainwashing people. but this time it's just in a fabian way.
It's a creep show. and people have not learned jack at all and will go on repeating the same mistakes again and again.

This is a seriously interesting topic as I am a history buff (nerdy I know) however this is a Mandela thread as pointed out previously... I would be more than happy to continue this in the appropriate thread...

[Madaya]

Originally Posted by GREGL

You are one sick puppy mate , there was no silver lining . End of story ,not for those that went through it and their families .

Lets ease up there. No need for insults. Remember, we can freely air an opinion because blood was shed. No one could voice a contrary opinion in Nazi Germany. Unless I had read, watched and heard the things I have done, I too might thing Hitler was a great achiever. Unfortunately, he was the reverse.

Here's another example, Porsche designs the Volkswagen - the 'peoples car' or as Hitler called it 'the Strength through Joy' car and presents it to Hitler in 1938. Germans were encouraged to make down payments for the car. None of them drove one. Hitler took the money and put it in the war chest.

Cheers.