MOTOR Feb 2015: XR8 vs SSV Redline + XR6T vs SS

[2242100]

Originally Posted by bradles024

Don't they do the runs with a passenger and air con on? If they're all done the same way it's still a good comparison even if they are slower than usual.

WHEELS were doing runs 2 up, but as their former Deputy Editor (Jesse Taylor now Editor of EVO AUSTRALIA) revealed, they stopped that practice.
I've never heard any suggestion that MOTOR were testing 2 up.

[Chopped]

Looks like they ran out of time to get it right though.

What they did get right were the supercharged V8 and the turbo 6, they got those very right indeed.

[HULK_I6T]

The trackwork catches out the miami.. no intercooler / no overboost..

then they use a xr6t manual??? Who does that? Lets run the turbo knowing it will fall off boost? Run the turbo zf and it would have spanked the lot of em.

people dish out the 6.0l but the test shows there are plenty of circumstances where the ss is quicker

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Having been at a session where they record their times - I can tell you they can drive. BUT, they only run 3-4 runs to get a time, they only allocate a quick timeslot for performance runs.

Remember - they are a magazine - it is all about the photos.

We keep hearing people moan on this site endlessly, but the times they get are indicative of what the cars do in the real world. If a car is that difficult to get off the line, then they are likely to have a poor time. Face it, the FG series is stuck in 90's chassis technology, with power that is probably more that the chassis can handle. That is the fault of the car not the tester.

I cannot steer anywhere near as well as the mag writers, but I reckon I can launch my car better than all of them.

On the other hand, I drove Elites GTS in NA form (Manual on street tyres) at the drags one night, and ran 12.69 first run. It was sooooo much easier to launch with way more stock traction.

So after 10 years with the same chassis they still don't know how to launch them

And why are the acceleration times for the Ssv and ss different? There's no extra power. If it's tyres then why is the rolling test still faster in the Ssv? You don't need grip there?
Always soooo much inconsistency with these journos. AND I havnt read the article but I'll bet there's more(size included) Holden pics as ussual.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I really wish it was. But spend some time in an M car and then you realise how a rear drive can put bit power down. The poor mans lsd that the Fpvs have had to make do with are 70s stuff.

Having said that, to me it makes driving these cars so much more rewarding. Anyone can be fast in a BMW M car. But when you get it right in a Ford with big power, you really can have a moment

I've got to admit that I haven't had anything to do with BMW M cars so I wouldn't feel qualified to disagree with you if I hadn't seen the following 0-60 kmh times in the February 2014 issue of MOTOR.
Audi RS6............2.06 seconds, no surprise given it's 4WD.
BMW M5............3.15 sec, the slowest.
HSV GTS............2.53 sec, the fastest 2WD.
Jaguar XFR-S......2.82 sec.
Mercedes...........2.93 sec.
What's also interesting is the quote below from the article.

"Whinge time: if a test driver with more than two decades' experience can't come within a half-second second of makers' claims - that's you specifically, Merc and BMW - on a rubbered-up drag facility with near countless attempts, how's your average non-pro owner going to come near tapping these cars' so-claimed potential under anything like normal conditions?"

So in this case they apparently did a lot of runs but I do know that time is often tight for them as you indicated. Also I agree that they aren't bad drivers.

Personally I'd like to see them put some ballast in the boots of cars when grip is poor. I know from experience that a relatively small percentage of weight behind the back wheels can give a very good grip yield without slowing the cars rolling acceleration down much. More chance of getting a good launch on the first 400 metre run as well as the full overboost.

As I've indicated before, XR6 T and GT rolling acceleration times that I've been seeing are well off what I know these cars can achieve in a first 400 metre run, and that's the pace that they (and no doubt the XR8) should normally have in every day real world driving. I've read comments about how fast they are, but the times look slow to me.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by futura

What is the power difference between the ss and ssv redline? Looking at the times between these two, there seems to be a large gap with the acceleration times recorded.
Does the article record starting tyre pressures before the lap times recorded?

275 rear rubber is the only difference.

[graphicgoose]

The Redline wins around a track again...and a bigger track this time too, who knew...

Originally Posted by Windsor220

So what are the differences between a standard SS and a SSV redline? Over 3 seconds a lap apart.

Differences between the regular SS and the SSV Redline are:

• No difference in power between the SSV Redline and the regular SS
• SSV Redline comes with FE3 ultra sports tuned suspension vs. the regular sports suspension in the SS
• SSV Redline comes with factory fitted Forged Alloy wheels vs. the cast wheels on the regular SS (reducing unsprung mass)
• SSV Redline comes stock with 275 wide rear tyres vs. the regular SS's 245's
• SSV Redline comes stock with Brembos vs. the "sports" brakes in the regular SS
• MY15 SSV Redline comes stock with steering wheel mounted paddle shifters in the auto
• SSV Redline comes with a "Competition mode" ESC calibration that adjust the feel of the electric steering (gives it more weight and feel), turns the traction control off and gives a lot more play before ESC pulls the rear end into line if you kick it out.

Agreed that the XR6T should have been auto also though, that's a bit odd.

[graphicgoose]

Originally Posted by FGX310

Then again I’ve never driven an SSV Redline so maybe it is better than I imagine.

Trust me, it is. I'd driven other models of VF before I drove a Redline and didn't really think all that much...until I drove an auto SSV Redline. After driving it my GT felt big, heavy, old and cheaply put together. The steering balance was extremely different and despite both having 4-pot brembos the pedal feel and bite in the Redline was much better.

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Dont think there is anything particulary wrong with the FGs 'chassis'.
Just hasnt had the amount of money spent on shocks, springs and bushes like the VF.

Not true, ask Brett from Shockworks about just how much work he and the team put into getting the most out of the FG chassis with respects to shocks, springs and bushes.

[futura]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

The Redline wins around a track again...and a bigger track this time too, who knew...



Differences between the regular SS and the SSV Redline are:

• No difference in power between the SSV Redline and the regular SS
• SSV Redline comes with FE3 ultra sports tuned suspension vs. the regular sports suspension in the SS
• SSV Redline comes with factory fitted Forged Alloy wheels vs. the cast wheels on the regular SS (reducing unsprung mass)
• SSV Redline comes stock with 275 wide rear tyres vs. the regular SS's 245's
• SSV Redline comes stock with Brembos vs. the "sports" brakes in the regular SS
• MY15 SSV Redline comes stock with steering wheel mounted paddle shifters in the auto
• SSV Redline comes with a "Competition mode" ESC calibration that adjust the feel of the electric steering (gives it more weight and feel), turns the traction control off and gives a lot more play before ESC pulls the rear end into line if you kick it out.

Agreed that the XR6T should have been auto also though, that's a bit odd.

If there is no power difference between the base model ss and the ssv redline, how does someone explain the discrepancy between the two on the acceleration times recorded? Surely the rear wider rubber and suspension differences cant make this difference?

[graphicgoose]

They could. My car puts the power it has down very well. You can stall it up a little on the brake and then just let rip and it grips and goes.

[kypez]

Isnt anyone going to test a Manual XR8 VS Manual SSV? Whats with all these Auto Track tests?!

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by arronm

Better suspension and brakes.

Wider rear tyres over the SS-V, forged alloy wheels which are lighter and competitive mode for the steering too.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by futura

If there is no power difference between the base model ss and the ssv redline, how does someone explain the discrepancy between the two on the acceleration times recorded? Surely the rear wider rubber and suspension differences cant make this difference?

I think the last one tells the most about the difference - easy to pull a consistent and quick time with some smarts helping you. Sounds like the base SS is nobbled more by the electronic nannies

SSV Redline comes with a "Competition mode" ESC calibration that adjust the feel of the electric steering (gives it more weight and feel), turns the traction control off and gives a lot more play before ESC pulls the rear end into line if you kick it out.

[SensationFG8]

One noticeable thing talking strictly between the SSV and SSV Redline is the 80-120 time.

I know they aren't far off each other but it would seem like a discrepancy to me for a car that has the same power to go faster when it has fatter rubber.

Fatter rubber is more friction, it's only an advantage if you are spinning your wheels. I wasn't aware that a stock SS had any problems with wheel spin from 80-120.

Anyone care to speculate why the redline is faster rolling acceleration when it makes the same power but has more friction?

[futura]

Still waiting for Jesse Taylor (Editor, EVO Australia) to do a test on the FG X XR8. Eager to see if Jesse can break into the 12 sec quarter mile.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Anyone care to speculate why the redline is faster rolling acceleration when it makes the same power but has more friction?

The time of day the test was done probably favoured the SSV.

[arronm]

its .13 of a second. Who cares.

[SensationFG8]

You don't have to participate in the discussion if you don't want to, it's plenty on topic in my opinion.

[arronm]

Well should we talk about the 1.5 second difference in the lap time between the SSV and XR8

[SensationFG8]

I'd prefer to discuss that straight line smashing the XR8 keeps handing to the SSV personally. But you of course can feel free to discuss whatever you'd like.

[futura]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I think the last one tells the most about the difference - easy to pull a consistent and quick time with some smarts helping you. Sounds like the base SS is nobbled more by the electronic nannies

SSV Redline comes with a "Competition mode" ESC calibration that adjust the feel of the electric steering (gives it more weight and feel), turns the traction control off and gives a lot more play before ESC pulls the rear end into line if you kick it out.

So in other words turning off or limit the traction control involvement yields faster accelerating times? Would be interesting to turn off all traction control gadgets on both SS models and see what difference the wider rubber and suspension tweaks alone gain.

[SensationFG8]

That's actually an interesting theory tweeked, wonder if they are lapping them with TC on or off?

I'm really looking forward to one of those ludicrously transparent articles by Jesse Taylor. So far I think he's one of the only journalists I've ever read a nice balanced article from and went, "yep that's all fair".

[arronm]

I agree the 80-120 time for the XR8 is impressive. Nice for overtaking.

[futura]

Originally Posted by arronm

Well should we talk about the 1.5 second difference in the lap time between the SSV and XR8

One thing at a time at the moment the discussion is with the acceleration differences between the SS models.

[FlipXW]

All this arguing about differences in times is retarded. The fact that these cars themselves can vary so much from car to car. There is a massive spread in how fast a certain model will do the 0-100 and quarter. Just maybe not all cars will make exactly the same power from the factory.
So my XR6T might do a 5.5 0-100 and my neighbours might run a 5 flat, look at the spread in magazines over the years. Most people would not even notice the difference and same goes for lap times. A huge majority of people who buy these things will never wring the neck out of their family sedan in this fashion nor have the capabilities to do so. Especially on public roads. Yes its nice to have bragging rights but thats about the only reason anyone really cares. Lets just enjoy the cars we have while they are still here.

[arronm]

Just checked my owners manual. "Competitive mode" leaves TC and ESC on but lets some wheel spin and vehicle attitude before they intervene.

TC can be turned off and ESC left on. Good setting for burnouts. Hold button for 5 seconds and both TC and ESC are off.

[SensationFG8]

Well actually that almost 1s gap from 80-120 in its own right is an interesting stat. The XR8 should theoretically make up a second everytime the cars do that 80-120 sprint which should be quite a frequent occurrence at winton raceway. I think we can all agree on that?

Lets assume it happens at least once on every corner leading into a straight of some length (7 times) that's 7 seconds just in that 80-120 bracket not taking into account that the XR8 will keep pulling, 8.5 if you count the end difference at the end of the lap time.

To compensate for that lost second how much faster through the corners would the SSVR have to be? Lets remember that it's 3 seconds a lap faster than the SS, that 3 seconds is split up between brakes, suspension and tyres. It makes for some interesting thinking and opens up some questions.

1. What time of day did they test the XR8, SS and the SSVR?
2. Are the dunslops one of the main contributing factors here for the XR8?
3. Is the weight of the XR8 a factor in the braking?
4. Did they setup the tyre pressures equally on all cars?
5. How much of the time differential on the Holdens is just the brakes? A few here have noted the rubbish nature of the SS brakes.
6. Is the magazine implying the XR8 needs to wash off an extra 20-30km/h compared to the SSVR on each corner to make it around?

I suspect we'll get the answer to many of these questions over the next few months, or maybe they are answered in the article?

Edit one more question to ask...
Is the XR8 hitting the 230 per hour speed limiter on the big straights?
Motor has the GT (not Rspec) lapping within a 10th of the XR8 on Winton, that doesn't make sense to me unless we are hitting limiters.

[futura]

Also what state of conditions were the dunlops on the FG X XR8 when used to record lap times? There are so many contributing factors when you compare lap times.

[SensationFG8]

I'm actually really curious to know if the XR8 is hitting it's 230km/h limit?

Just did some research and noted the SS is limited to 277.

I'm not sure the straights at Winton are long enough for either car to reach 230 though...

[futura]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I'm actually really curious to know if the XR8 is hitting it's 230km/h limit?

Just did some research and noted the SS is limited to 277.

I'm not sure the straights at Winton are long enough for either car to reach 230 though...

Given that the top speed of the v8supercars is 225km/h. Its safe to say that neither of these cars will ever reach this speed.

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/events...it-information