QLD Government Short of $$, Speeding Fines Going Up !!

[Shonky.]

Say you own a restaurant, servicing a small loyal local customer base. Say the police decide to have a speeding "blitz" in your area and issue 100 extra infringement notices. Locals pay this out of their disposable income.

This is the money they use for luxury items they don't need. IE. Bread and potatoes, not restaurant meals. Now you have less money floating around your local area to be spent at your restaurant.

I don't want to ask you what you do, but perhaps you can translate this into your industry

And hopefully you can agregate it up into a macroeconomic impact and see my point

[Junkyard-Dog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

They must need a new tunnel in Brisbane. As we never see any money for roads in Central Queensland..

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

How many tickets have you had?

Originally Posted by Ansimp

If you have driven on Qld roads you will realise this money does not get spent on our roads. As we currently have a lame duck state government maybe it is time that everything becomes federal and fees and charges become national and we stop wasting money on the wasteful bureaucracy of state governments.

WOW you guys must not get out much, QLD probably has the best roads in Australia for the lest cars and most are free to drive on.

Try driving in Sydney, most Motorways are car parks with only two lanes, I recently drove in QLD and could not believe how good the roads are as soon as you cross the border. The Newell Highway up here is a literal goats track, and carries more traffic that most roads in Australia, it's not even divided with thousands of road trains passing each other and cars a mere metre apart at 110km/hr going opposite direction with hardly even a break down lane.

All the while Brisbane/Gold Coast has 6 lanes each way with about 8 cars on them in total, then cross the border into NSW and you are back to goats tracks.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

Say you own a restaurant, servicing a small loyal local customer base. Say the police decide to have a speeding "blitz" in your area and issue 100 extra infringement notices. Locals pay this out of their disposable income.

This is the money they use for luxury items they don't need. IE. Bread and potatoes, not restaurant meals. Now you have less money floating around your local area to be spent at your restaurant.

I don't want to ask you what you do, but perhaps you can translate this into your industry

And hopefully you can agregate it up into a macroeconomic impact and see my point

so...

by not speeding, you have more disposable income, and therefore feed more back in to the economy??


for what its worth, i work in the printing industry, which is yet another industry following the same trajectory as the auto industry. i earn less now than i did 10 years ago, so once the bills are paid, and food is on the table, there isn't any left over. disposable income?? i'm married with 2 kids on single income, so its not that difficult to make a decision as to how i spend what little money i get. donating to the govt doesn't feature too highly.

that is the sole motivation for trying to stay within the law.

[Junkyard-Dog]

You're such a brainwashed sheep Prydey...

[blackf6]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

WOW you guys must not get out much, QLD probably has the best roads in Australia for the lest cars and most are free to drive on.

Try driving in Sydney, most Motorways are car parks with only two lanes, I recently drove in QLD and could not believe how good the roads are as soon as you cross the border. The Newell Highway up here is a literal goats track, and carries more traffic that most roads in Australia, it's not even divided with thousands of road trains passing each other and cars a mere metre apart at 110km/hr going opposite direction with hardly even a break down lane.

All the while Brisbane/Gold Coast has 6 lanes each way with about 8 cars on them in total, then cross the border into NSW and you are back to goats tracks.

Brisbane and Goldcoast. Drive further North. North Queensland is the forgotten state.

[gossy]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

All the while Brisbane/Gold Coast has 6 lanes each way with about 8 cars on them in total, then cross the border into NSW and you are back to goats tracks.

Have you been on the M1 recently between Brisbane and Gold Coast? I commute everyday, more than 145,000 commuters use this "car park" everyday. Yes, we do have it good, but our infrastructure is way way behind our growth.

We have been waiting for expansion of the M1, or the green light for the proposed intra regional transport corridor between South Brisbane and Gold Coast, but no Government wants to, or does have the money. Cost of living up here is beyond the southern states, except for the price of Houses/Property.

Time for me to move to the country as you my fellow XB friend.

[Shonky.]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Solid post; well done

Why don't you instead try disputing why the economic flow of value I suggested is incorrect?

Look at Rudd's one of stimulus payment. Whilst I disagree with it from an economic management point of view, the whole basis of it was to stimulate the economy in the same manner that I have outlined in my last.

The impact of household spending on the economy is not my theory, and it's def not a straw man

I think you should perhaps try reading a book if you think it is

[Shonky.]

And yes, before someone else says it again, I know that by not speeding, I won't get a fine, and my disposable income can sill go back into the economy instead of being transferred to the state.

My point is, as a member of society and a participant in the economy, I am worse off when others is. You guys are focusing on the behaviour of individuals, I am focusing on the behaviour of the state

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

WOW you guys must not get out much, QLD probably has the best roads in Australia for the lest cars and most are free to drive on.

Try driving in Sydney, most Motorways are car parks with only two lanes, I recently drove in QLD and could not believe how good the roads are as soon as you cross the border. The Newell Highway up here is a literal goats track, and carries more traffic that most roads in Australia, it's not even divided with thousands of road trains passing each other and cars a mere metre apart at 110km/hr going opposite direction with hardly even a break down lane.

All the while Brisbane/Gold Coast has 6 lanes each way with about 8 cars on them in total, then cross the border into NSW and you are back to goats tracks.

Not even close to the truth, BNE and GC have some reasonable roads, beyond the sunshine coast they are rubbish. The Bruce HWY is a death trap. Go and drive in Vic, the main roads there are where its at for quality IMO

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

And yes, before someone else says it again, I know that by not speeding, I won't get a fine, and my disposable income can sill go back into the economy instead of being transferred to the state.

My point is, as a member of society and a participant in the economy, I am worse off when others is. You guys are focusing on the behaviour of individuals, I am focusing on the behaviour of the state

Surely, if the state decided by the will I the internet warrior to cease fining people for speeding their revenue would go down. The services demanded by the now free to speed society, law, emergency services, hospitals, education, etc still need to be paid for. So taxes need to go up! That disposable income is now guaranteed to reduce as taxes are indiscriminate, the bonus of discretionary spending on speed is a benefit to all that don't get caught speeding. I for one thank those who regularly donate to the general coffers of society such that I pay less tax. I say full steam ahead, damn the cameras and radar, and pay away so I can retire wealthier!
JP

[gossy]

How did Governments get by before Speed Cameras?

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

I think you should perhaps try reading a book if you think it is

Can you please suggest the book I should read that will detail the way you are being victimised by speed cameras?

I'm currently reading Metro 2033 for about the fourth time and would welcome the opportunity to read something equally bizarre.

[Shonky.]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Surely, if the state decided by the will I the internet warrior to cease fining people for speeding their revenue would go down. The services demanded by the now free to speed society, law, emergency services, hospitals, education, etc still need to be paid for. So taxes need to go up! That disposable income is now guaranteed to reduce as taxes are indiscriminate, the bonus of discretionary spending on speed is a benefit to all that don't get caught speeding. I for one thank those who regularly donate to the general coffers of society such that I pay less tax. I say full steam ahead, damn the cameras and radar, and pay away so I can retire wealthier!
JP

I am massive advocate for small governments, economic liberalism if you will.

This is due to my extreme skepticism for the way in which government manages/spends our money. For that reason I prefer to have money spent by households rather than governments. I believe I am paying for but not using the services you speak of.

This is an extreme view though, and one that I wouldn't push on others, but what I do think is reasonable is for honesty. As I said earlier, if we all accept that the premise of speeding fines is a lie, how can we trust the state on how it spends the revenue collected?

Additionally, the road safety issue, in terms of truly looking at it, takes a back seat, as it is whitewashed with propaganda to sustain the revenue/speeding lies

I do genuinely thank you for your proper response. You do raise a good point, that I understand, but somewhat disagree with. Which is fine

[Shonky.]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

Can you please suggest the book I should read that will detail the way you are being victimised by speed cameras?

I'm currently reading Metro 2033 for about the fourth time and would welcome the opportunity to read something equally bizarre.

Mate, I am trying to think and articulate collectively, on how society would be better off, not from a personal/individual/selfish level

Do you really think I feel like a victim? Where have I mentioned self, as opposed to society? Can you not follow the bouncing ball in terms of the conversation?

[Junkyard-Dog]

Shonky you seem rather combative and have resorted to personal attacks multiple times already. It's hard to take your opinion seriously because you are only complaining but offering no solutions to the "problem" that you claim affects us all.

I already stated earlier in the thread that I do not necessarily agree with the way that speeding fines are handled in this country. However, it remains the law and I believe in living by the laws of the land. Otherwise where does the law breaking end? If you give some people an inch, they will take a mile. The "broken window" theory is relevant here.

Follow the laws or deal with the consequences. If you don't believe the law to be just, follow the proper avenues to address the injustice. Nobody in a position of power will ever take your cause at face value if you aren't willing to enact change in the appropriate way.

I linked the "Straw Man" analogy because you continue to contest arguments which nobody has raised. The post you made about restaurant guests declining due to traffic offences was almost laughable. I keep a close eye on the local media. In a town of 15,000 residents, we are (un)lucky to have 2 or 3 serious traffic offences each week even during a blitz (such as the one which is happening right now). If 100 people were caught speeding within a short period of time, I would be astounded - just based on the raw data at hand. I highly doubt it would affect the flow of customers or significantly affect the income of that business.

I have a few questions, if you feel like answering.

Have you petitioned for the change you want to see? Have you spoken to local government about the issue? Have you raised your concerns with anybody that has the ability to change the current situation?

If not, stop moaning.

[Shonky.]

Yeah, fair comment on the combat thing. I just get sick of the same dozen or so people chiming in with the "if you don't speed you don't loose" comment, on every thread about speeding.

My restaurant owner example was an attempt at a simple explanation of what I meant by the negative economic impact of excessive and dishonest transfers from households to the state. (Preyday didn't know what I meant by a cost being imposed on people who don't speed) I am not saying restaurants are going under in small towns. It was an oversimplified example to demonstrate an economic phenomena.

To answer your specific questions - Have I formed a petition - No. I have signed many petitions and then followed the result and found none have made a lick of difference.
Have I spoken to local government - No. Local government has no hand in traffic laws. It is done at a state level. Have I raised the issue with anyone with the ability to change the situation - I have floated the idea of a practical research experiment to one of the universities I do other research work with. Unfortunately, the costs are likely to be prohibitively expensive if one was to get a sample size that would result in a statistically robust result.
That is what promoted me earlier in the thread to comment that there seems to be no meaningful research done, only rhetoric.
I don't understand why you need me to stop expressing my view (stop moaning) unless I have used the channels you listed.
Is there no merit in trying to influence the way others think via free speech?

Of course you are entitled to free speech too, I just don't know if what you are saying really needs much airtime, as your directive unless I'm mistaken is to simply adhere to the status quo and not question the state?? What is your motivation to promote this view?

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

Yeah, fair comment on the combat thing. I just get sick of the same dozen or so people chiming in with the "if you don't speed you don't loose" comment, on every thread about speeding.

Well as hard as it may be for you to swallow those are the facts, whether you are sick of it or not matters little, the truth is the truth.

I have had a few speeding tickets over my driving life, and strangely enough each time I was speeding, I have also sped plenty of times and not received a ticket, just lucky I guess.

Never received a ticket when I was not speeding.

If you do get a ticket no one else is to blame, as you are the person in charge of the vehicle. If you don't like it campaign to change the laws or catch the bus.

There are plenty of laws I don't personally agree with, but these are the rules we have to follow, and most speed limits are designed for the lowest denominator, unfortunately that is who we have to cater for as a society.

How many road safety meetings have you attended??

How many dead people have you scraped off the pavement after an accident?? How many times have you attended the home of a family to let them know their loved one has been killed in an accident??

I can assure you every cop on the street for more that a year or two has done all of the above on at least one occasion.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by blackf6

Brisbane and Goldcoast. Drive further North. North Queensland is the forgotten state.

or west, or north-west.
Anywhere else except the greater Brisbane area.

[jpblue1000]

Shonky, I'm not sure of your position on lack of research into speed limits, accidents and traffic flow as you claim. I believe there is a huge bodies of research globally into these issues. Road speed limits are not arbitrarily determined but set by engineers and other experts based on the evidence of theses studies. Whenever this debate starts there is often many that dismiss, undermine or try and discredit the body of work and findings of theses studies. There are research bodies dedicated to the study, again many globally.
Sure their findings are usually different to the free speech, anti speed camera brigade, but its published, reviewed and on balance probably more accurate than anecdotal evidence of bloggers or other opinionated keyboard warriors.
JP

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

Of course you are entitled to free speech too, I just don't know if what you are saying really needs much airtime, as your directive unless I'm mistaken is to simply adhere to the status quo and not question the state?? What is your motivation to promote this view?

I welcome you to hold your own opinion as well. My motivation to promote this view is simply stated: I adhere to the laws of the land.

If you are willing and able to change the laws I will follow them but I will not break the law at my own discretion. That is called "anarchy".

Believe me, there are many roads that I know like the back of my hand, I would love to go nuts and drive to the full extent of my abilities but I don't do this because I don't want to deal with the possible consequences. If I lose my license, I will not only lose my job but also lose my ability to race. Both are entwined either way. I don't want to lose either of those things, so I adhere to the speed limit. It's that simple.

If a law exists and I break it, I will face the consequences. I know that speeding/hoon laws exist and I do not want to face them... so I follow the law.

Laws are in place for EVERYBODY to follow, not just those that believe themselves to be applicable.

[Blue Shadow]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Well as hard as it may be for you to swallow those are the facts, whether you are sick of it or not matters little, the truth is the truth.

I have had a few speeding tickets over my driving life, and strangely enough each time I was speeding, I have also sped plenty of times and not received a ticket, just lucky I guess.

Never received a ticket when I was not speeding.

If you do get a ticket no one else is to blame, as you are the person in charge of the vehicle. If you don't like it campaign to change the laws or catch the bus.

There are plenty of laws I don't personally agree with, but these are the rules we have to follow, and most speed limits are designed for the lowest denominator, unfortunately that is who we have to cater for as a society.

How many road safety meetings have you attended??

How many dead people have you scraped off the pavement after an accident?? How many times have you attended the home of a family to let them know their loved one has been killed in an accident??

I can assure you every cop on the street for more that a year or two has done all of the above on at least one occasion.

For 22 tears I have "scraped people off the road", " attended road safety meetings" , " attended many family homes to advise their loved one has been killed. I can fining people into the stone age is not the only thing that can be done.
Do you really think that the money raised by fines are going back into roads or the police, well its not, at least in NSW. Fines are looked at as income.

[Shonky.]

There seem to be a couple of themes that keep coming back, but what I find confusing is that I agree with all but one of them, and have never said otherwise. Eg.

Laws are there for a reason.
They must be obeyed.
This applies to ones you agree with and ones you don't.

I am on the same page as you guys, have never, and won't ever say otherwise.

The one statement that I disagree with, that in some cases is stated as fact, rather than the opinion it is, is as follows -

If you don't speed, the current regime of speeding fine revenue collection will not negatively affect you

I don't know if people don't understand my point, or it they don't want to, but half the arguments that are coming back are in line with my beliefs and don't talk to where it differs, but instead to where it is the same.

I don't speed
I don't pay fines
I don't encourage anyone to do either of the above.

But, I think the system is crook in the extreme, and a clear separation between road safety and revenue needs to be created and maintained.

Do you understand (as opposed to agreeing with) what I am saying?

[toohey myster]

10 ks or less in nz $30 and they complain they should be so lucky

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

The one statement that I disagree with, that in some cases is stated as fact, rather than the opinion it is, is as follows -

If you don't speed, the current regime of speeding fine revenue collection will not negatively affect you

the way you word it seems to suggest people are better off speeding...

but i think what you are saying is, if you negatively impact the revenue stream, the govt will just find other ways of getting that money.

i agree.

however, the answer doesn't lie in ignoring road rules. if someone makes the statement, 'don't speed and don't pay', it doesn't mean they agree with the regime.

[Shonky.]

not really

I believe it is bad, dishonest policy, and society looses, whether they speed (and pay fines) or not.

I believe that you, XBGS, and I, who don't speed and pay fines, still loose out due to the state's approach to road safety and revenue management

[Shonky.]

1. not supportive of policy and choose to speed < 2. supportive of policy and choose not to speed < 3. not supportive of policy and choose not to speed



The people I called sheep at the start of the thread are #2

I am #3

I think you guys thought I was #1

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

I believe it is bad, dishonest policy, and society looses, whether they speed (and pay fines) or not.

maybe, but it may also have a positive effect. lets live in a fantasy world for a second and assume that revenue from speeding dries up. perhaps this would encourage a focus on some of the other road rules that should have a higher priority than speeding (car roadworthiness, right lane hogs, tailgating etc), then society would benefit. i do agree that this scenario is pretty far fetched though. speeding is simply too much of an easy target.

Originally Posted by Shonky.

1. not supportive of policy and choose to speed < 2. supportive of policy and choose not to speed < 3. not supportive of policy and choose not to speed



The people I called sheep at the start of the thread are #2

I am #3

I think you guys thought I was #1

so...

why do you choose not to speed? if its due to financial reasons, doesn't this put you in the same category as the people you are arguing against?

i would class myself a #3 also.

[Shonky.]

Financial reasons, yes.

Same category, no, I don't think so.

I believe at least some of them are number 2, which is actually fine too.

Its the fact that they try and shut down dialogue when number 3s try to discuss it, with the same statement that I won't repeat again.

I honestly don't know how one would try and change things.

I think science is most likely the key, practical and social experiments; but its horrendously dear, and as I said earlier, any green shoots are shut down by the rhetoric of government, police, and the sheep who follow blindly without question

[blackf6]

#4. Wgaf