EV policy by federal government and the states

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I agree with what you say. except assuming EVs would be advantageous to everybody in this country.

That would be a silly position for anyone to maintain. I agree.

But, they are advantageous to a lot more of the population than people give them credit for too.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

Exactly. It has nothing to do with the merits of EVs. It was the policies. But we never seem to discuss the benefits of EVs. Or the elephant in the room of the subsidies offered to fossil fuels in Australia. We just bag EVs.

Lets be honest, we've all been enjoying discounts in the ICE world for a long time. All our beloved Falcons and Terri's were only possible due to subsidies! We've just go so used to them that we believe we were entitled to the subsidies and forget about them. When EVs come along, people act surprised that another industry might want a subsidy as well.

no one is bagging EVs in this thread. just the expectations they should be subsidized.

If they were to be manufactured here you could compare the beloved Falcons and Terri's.

but subsidizing the richest man in the world - why?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

no one is bagging EVs in this thread. just the expectations they should be subsidized.

If they were to be manufactured here you could compare the beloved Falcons and Terri's.

but subsidizing the richest man in the world - why?

I'm not for subsidies, as I've made clear and have paid top dollar without any expectation of subsidies.

That caveat aside, good point that if they do setup in Australia, we could subsidise them.

At the moment, fuel is subsidised. If they can put those subsidies towards cars, have people get the benefit of much cheap fuel instead of the jihad juice we've come to love so much, isn't that a good thing? Without any of the environmental benefits brought into the equation.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

That would be a silly position for anyone to maintain. I agree.

But, they are advantageous to a lot more of the population than people give them credit for too.

you could also argue that a lot of the population living in the cities don't need to own a car at all.. you can get a lot of uber rides and never get close to car ownership and hastles. rental car for the weekend away.

perfect for those without any car passion

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

I'm not for subsidies, as I've made clear and have paid top dollar without any expectation of subsidies.

That caveat aside, good point that if they do setup in Australia, we could subsidise them.

At the moment, fuel is subsidised. If they can put those subsidies towards cars, have people get the benefit of much cheap fuel instead of the jihad juice we've come to love so much, isn't that a good thing? Without any of the environmental benefits brought into the equation.

I disagree with subsidising further car manufacturers in Australia, unless the Government gets a 50%+ share in the company,

We'll throw money at it, but we own what we throw in, no more funneling tax payer money back to corporate HQ overseas and pulling out on us.

Or we could fund our own car manufacturer and try compete on a global scale, try actually innovate rather than rely on some foreign global entity starting up an Australian subsidiary which only leads to the above.

All EV's do is shift the burden over to the regions where our power infrastructure is, you know, the place that burns brown coal in VIC and last time I checked recycling lithium ion batteries is a problem.

I've got no problems with EVs, I have a problem with shifting the burden and pretending that its an actual benefit rather than just 'on paper' reductions.

[burnz]

every car manufacturer is subsidized by their relevant country..

ICE cars are taxed on operating cost, as for farmers getting subbied.. "all businesses get tax return on fuel"

should EV's pay a 50% surcharge for electricity... a separate meter perhaps??

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

you could also argue that a lot of the population living in the cities don't need to own a car at all.. you can get a lot of uber rides and never get close to car ownership and hastles. rental car for the weekend away.

perfect for those without any car passion

Fair as well. That is already happening anyway. Lots of people I know aren't driving and just uber or take public transport. Go-get and others are gaining traction.

I still like driving my cars but that is a dying breed too.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by burnz

should EV's pay a 50% surcharge for electricity... a separate meter perhaps??

And if they have solar?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by kypez

And if they have solar?

you going park your car for a week?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I disagree with subsidising further car manufacturers in Australia, unless the Government gets a 50%+ share in the company,

We'll throw money at it, but we own what we throw in, no more funneling tax payer money back to corporate HQ overseas and pulling out on us.

Or we could fund our own car manufacturer and try compete on a global scale, try actually innovate rather than rely on some foreign global entity starting up an Australian subsidiary which only leads to the above.

All EV's do is shift the burden over to the regions where our power infrastructure is, you know, the place that burns brown coal in VIC and last time I checked recycling lithium ion batteries is a problem.

I've got no problems with EVs, I have a problem with shifting the burden and pretending that its an actual benefit rather than just 'on paper' reductions.

Fair too. I'd rather not see profits go overseas but we've never really had our own brand in Australia.

Be nice if we had our own manufacturing but I doubt that will happen. No...ummm... incentives.

Recycling Lithium Ion batteries aren't as big a problem and as been discussed Ad nauseam, they can be repurposed for a lot longer before they need to be recycled. Could you tell me how we recycle Petrol or diesel once they are used? No one seems to ask this question even though they ask it about batteries all time. Another thing we're just used to like the subsidies for the ICE industry.

Even if we shift the burden, again, as discussed over and over, even on pure Coal, they emit much less emissions than ICE. Heck, a diesel genset to fuel a EV uses less diesel than it being used to propel the car!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

you could also argue that a lot of the population living in the cities don't need to own a car at all.. you can get a lot of uber rides and never get close to car ownership and hastles. rental car for the weekend away.

perfect for those without any car passion

I'd love to take the train to work, except my closest train station is 20km away from home, the train only stops there once every hour, and then the closest train station to work is 7.5km away.

If I lived in an apartment and worked in the CBD then I'd not drive and I'd probably only use my car on the weekends, or this new working from home thing thats all the rage at the moment but thats frowned upon in my industry.

One of my mates lived and worked in Southbank and his car just sat around for months on end not being used.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

you could also argue that a lot of the population living in the cities don't need to own a car at all.. you can get a lot of uber rides and never get close to car ownership and hastles. rental car for the weekend away.

perfect for those without any car passion

I believe this is (albeit indirectly) close to the mark; people currently aspire to own an electric car as opposed to simply wanting fair access/use of one. It’s just another want, like a new phone but dearer.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by burnz

you going park your car for a week?

So it's been overcast all day today in Sydney. Rain all say.

My system has generated 20.1 kWh today. That's over 140 kms worth of energy. When it's sunny, my system will generate more than my battery could hold if charged from empty in a day comfortably.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

Fair too. I'd rather not see profits go overseas but we've never really had our own brand in Australia.

Be nice if we had our own manufacturing but I doubt that will happen. No...ummm... incentives.

Recycling Lithium Ion batteries aren't as big a problem and as been discussed Ad nauseam, they can be repurposed for a lot longer before they need to be recycled. Could you tell me how we recycle Petrol or diesel once they are used? No one seems to ask this question even though they ask it about batteries all time. Another thing we're just used to like the subsidies for the ICE industry.

Even if we shift the burden, again, as discussed over and over, even on pure Coal, they emit much less emissions than ICE. Heck, a diesel genset to fuel a EV uses less diesel than it being used to propel the car!

Using unleaded and diesel doesn't result in lithium ion batteries being dumped in the ground somewhere, like e-waste currently is all over the place.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Using unleaded and diesel doesn't result in lithium ion batteries being dumped in the ground somewhere, like e-waste currently is all over the place.

Yes, it's just dumped into the ocean via leaks and into the air via the tailpipe.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

So it's been overcast all day today in Sydney. Rain all say.

My system has generated 20.1 kWh today. That's over 140 kms worth of energy. When it's sunny, my system will generate more than my battery could hold if charged from empty in a day comfortably.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

So you've generated the equivalent of somewhere around 2.5L of 91 octane with your solar panels.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

So you've generated the equivalent of 2.5L of 91 octane with your solar panels.

Can't drive 140 kms on 2.5L of 91. You're literally making my point.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[burnz]

Originally Posted by kypez

So it's been overcast all day today in Sydney. Rain all say.

My system has generated 20.1 kWh today. That's over 140 kms worth of energy. When it's sunny, my system will generate more than my battery could hold if charged from empty in a day comfortably.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

if you've got the voltage in DC it would be good, DC to DC
if you run an inverter (solar) then the car convert back to DC expect 35%+ losses from the two conversion.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

I believe this is (albeit indirectly) close to the mark; people currently aspire to own an electric car as opposed to simply wanting fair access/use of one. It’s just another want, like a new phone car but dearer.

Fixed it

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

Can't drive 140 kms on 2.5L of 91. You're literally making my point.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

No but it takes less than a second second to put 2.5L of 91 in your car that you can buy within 5 minutes of your house - that you don't need tens of thousands of dollars worth of solar panels on your roof to charge your $100,000 car cause 'environment'.

How many hours did it take to generate 20kWh?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by burnz

if you've got the voltage in DC it would be good, DC to DC
if you run an inverter (solar) then the car convert back to DC expect 35%+ losses from the two conversion.

I run a Enphase system so only around 60v DC.

Losses are not 35%. From my own testing, I'm looking at 10-15% losses. Either way, drop it by 40kms. I get enough for 100kms on an overcast cloudy day. And given I live in Sydney, we have a LOT more sunny days.

Point is, I don't have to park up for a week and don't need a tax on my energy consumption. I've pumped back into the grid a LOT more than I've used to charge my cars.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Once upon a time there was this forward thinking car manufacturer who made a dedicated LPG car

with a matching beaded seat cover? no thanks grandad.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I agree with what you say. except assuming EVs would be advantageous to everybody in this country.

With the right policy in place I don't see why they wouldn't be to the greater public, able to replace a petrol vehicle. Commercial/industry is another situation but that is not the topic of discussion.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

No but it takes less than a second second to put 2.5L of 91 in your car that you can buy within 5 minutes of your house - that you don't need tens of thousands of dollars worth of solar panels on your roof to charge your $100,000 car cause environment.

Probably. But I've spent more on fuel than the solar panels over a couple of years of running a V8. I don't need to fill up in 5 minutes. Unlike every other ICE owner, I require sleep. Car charges when I'm asleep off the batteries we have from the solar we generated through the day. Or, as is happening with the COVID situation, I'd charge directly to the car. I take the bus to work and the car sits at home.

You certainly don't need to have solar to charge anyway. Its cheap enough off the grid. 6.73 cents for EVs with my power company. CHEAP!

I'd have bought a $150,000 car anyway. And I'd have got Solar anyway. EVs let you have your cake and eat it too! But the cheapy one is only $63k now. Price of a Sprint 6.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

I completely agree! Open market. I want no handouts to get into an EV. Similarly, I don't want any Road Tax usage tax because I found a way around fuel excise.

The fuel excise is essentially that though, even if it's tied to fuel use. How else do we fund the road network? Especially once we all go EV? Ditch all excises and just slug it via rego, and tie it to contribution toward road maintenance based on propensity for road damage?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

The fuel excise is essentially that though, even if it's tied to fuel use. How else do we fund the road network? Especially once we all go EV? Ditch all excises and just slug it via rego, and tie it to contribution toward road maintenance based on propensity for road damage?

Its a federal tax. Just like LCT and GST. I've paid more in LCT and GST on the cars than many pay on fuel in a couple of decades. I think they can use some of that for Roads! I've just prepaid the excise.

[xxx000]

So back to the old tit for tat arguments for and against EV's

I wish everybody would just grow up a little

[burnz]

Originally Posted by kypez

Its a federal tax. Just like LCT and GST. I've paid more in LCT and GST on the cars than many pay on fuel in a couple of decades. I think they can use some of that for Roads! I've just prepaid the excise.

relevance?? everybody whom has bought an expensive car by choice pays.. EV/ICE same same.

ICE should not be used to subsidies EV!

[kypez]

Originally Posted by burnz

relevance?? everybody whom has bought an expensive car by choice pays.. EV/ICE same same.

ICE should not be used to subsidies EV!

No it shouldn't be. Agreed. But thats the incentive for buying the EV. That the laws weren't there at the time and they should've thought about it instead of being greedy/shortsighted and attaching it to fuel. Per kms tax should've been rolled into the rego a long time ago. They didn't, egg on their face. The others who bought their ICE had a choice. They chose ICE and want to spend on fuel. Good for them. I didn't. I shouldn't be forced into a tax. Add LCT to Utes as well and level the playing field. Or remove it all together. I hate that Australia love to tax you more the better you do.

And we aren't even talking about all the other benefits of EVs here. The reduction in pollution, the better air quality, health benefits, no dependency on overseas fuel supplies, national security, the list goes on. I'm happy for an end to end price put on ICE and EVs and see which ones come out ahead.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'd love to take the train to work, except my closest train station is 20km away from home, the train only stops there once every hour, and then the closest train station to work is 7.5km away.

If I lived in an apartment and worked in the CBD then I'd not drive and I'd probably only use my car on the weekends, or this new working from home thing thats all the rage at the moment but thats frowned upon in my industry.

One of my mates lived and worked in Southbank and his car just sat around for months on end not being used.

I did the London thing a lot of years ago, no car just public transport, of course suited our culture at the time.
but that's London, they get the ****s if the train is 1m late. here well I don't need to explain