How are demerit points fair?

[philby]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Obviously demerit points deter speeding more. The problem is in states like victoria avoiding a speeding fine is not always as easy as not speeding on purpose.

I'm a kiwi (Yes it's true!!) but I have noticed a major difference in the way the states here in Ausi deal with speeding drivers. Now currently I'm living in Sydney - NSW and if you get caught by a camera then quite frankly you deserve it. I'm assuming the camera is actually working correctly!!! but thats another topic - after all you get 3 signs the size of a small house warning you that there is a camera ahead, and if you can't see that then really you shouldn't be driving.

Yet in Vic there are no signs and no warning (that I am aware of) so really there are problems here with the way the law is applied. After all it should be contant accross all states. After all the demerit point system is the same so why is the detection of speeding drives different in each state.

To me this simply means that some states are harder done by than others. My question is - why the hell is this?????

[MITCHAY]

Goin down the coast from Canberra there is a section of the Kings Highway called Clyde Mountain.

The speed limit is 70km/h but i can easily do the advisory signs without breakin the speed limit but if i wanted to i could easily double some of the corners without loss of traction or understeer.

Also there is this section of road that goes from 100 to 50 through a town to 100 again. Yes in the town it should be 50 or 60 but on the outskirts of it it should be 70-80 because the congestion becomes so bad. Ive had people overtake me in the 50km/h zone while doin 50. For interests sake the town is Bugendore. All canberra people know what im talkn about.

However since its against the law and i usually go down when double demerits are in force i wont risk 6 points for breaking the speed limit.

[Shonky]

God I hate dole bludgers...

Before I get flamed, I mean bludgers as in those who sit on the dole and go surfing all day, not those who genuinley need assistance.

[parawolf]

People that drive for a living get more practice on the roads, therefore they should be more alert of the road speed condition changes and know how their car handles better than someone that drives 5000-10000 a year.

I've had this argument with a Taxi driver that argued they should be given double the number of demerit points - on the basis they are on the road all the time. I argued that because they are dealing with the public they should be given half the number of points because they should be taking far less risks, and more responsable drivers than Joe Blow.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by parawolf

I've had this argument with a Taxi driver that argued they should be given double the number of demerit points - on the basis they are on the road all the time. I argued that because they are dealing with the public they should be given half the number of points because they should be taking far less risks, and more responsable drivers than Joe Blow.

i hate taxi drivers : stupid, eratic, can't apply basic road sence, think they own the road....i hate them with a passion a big big passion : : :

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by NC 5ltr

why is that?

if i want to apsire to greater wealth why should i get penalised when i get there. what your saying is we should never try our hardest to achieve financial reward. if i *uck up, the law will be harder on me than some loser who wants to live off welfare all their life. that's why

[NC 5ltr]

Originally Posted by nak351

if i want to apsire to greater wealth why should i get penalised when i get there. what your saying is we should never try our hardest to achieve financial reward. if i *uck up, the law will be harder on me than some loser who wants to live off welfare all their life. that's why

thats fare that you would want to aspire to greater wealth,but when you r earning big bucks and the fines are the same accross the board it will not deter people who are better off from speeding or doing other grievences(spelling :togo: )

thearetically it would hurt everyone as the fines would be based on a percentage of a persons income,think about it ,it makes sence(except my friggin spelling : )

[R0bb0]

Originally Posted by NC 5ltr

i think they need to adopt the system they use in hungry where the fine is proportional to your income to make it fair.

so instead of it being a set fine it becomes a percentage of what you earn.

like if someone earns $50000 a year and gets caught speeding he pays a %5 income fine which is $2500 or if a person with a $1000000 income gets caught for the same infringment he gets a $50000 fine.

it is pretty fare and it will make everyone more responsable on the road as it will hurt everyone in the hip pocket no matter what the income may be.

cheers

This would not work. An example is that a man earns $100000 / year in his job. His wife does not work, but drives around all day shopping/picking up kids/socialising in the mercedes. What you are saying is that she earns nothing so should pay nothing? Also with the Speed camera's, you would just say that your wife was driving and sign stat dec. - No fine....

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by NC 5ltr

thats fare that you would want to aspire to greater wealth,but when you r earning big bucks and the fines are the same accross the board it will not deter people who are better off from speeding or doing other grievences(spelling :togo: )

thearetically it would hurt everyone as the fines would be based on a percentage of a persons income,think about it ,it makes sence(except my friggin spelling : )

Why scale the fines? every has the same number of demerit points available - just use those and everyone is on the same playing field.

[NC 5ltr]

Originally Posted by R0bb0

This would not work. An example is that a man earns $100000 / year in his job. His wife does not work, but drives around all day shopping/picking up kids/socialising in the mercedes. What you are saying is that she earns nothing so should pay nothing? Also with the Speed camera's, you would just say that your wife was driving and sign stat dec. - No fine....

what i have said is just a general suggestion,not a 500 page report waiting to be put through legislation.

[NAK302]

the fine is not a deterent to most people regardless of income. the demerit points are the issue. to base a fine system on income is totally discriminitry in every sense.
how about if we target the 18-25 year old males and make them pay more for their infringements because they do it more often than everyone else. would that deter them? once again descrminitry.

we're back to the original argument.........stay within the law and you don't have any problems, go outside it then :

Originally Posted by NC 5ltr

what i have said is just a general suggestion,not a 500 page report waiting to be put through legislation.

Its utter rubish, what % of deaths are specifically caused by wealthy people speeding becase they don't mind paying fines. Its nothing but a shameful attampt to crab some cash.

[NC 5ltr]

ok then since this topic was bought up about demerit points ill change my question.

wat if you had the option to buy back your demerit points based on your income?

[T_Terror]

Or better yet scrap the stupid points system anyway and make it like americas where its just fines.

[zetec]

Why can't we all just shut up and stop getting fined for crying out loud? Anyone who tries to use the excuse "everyone will get fined a few times" obviously either can't drive, doesn't want to know how to drive properly, or is just incredibly ignorant and doesn't care. Nobody is immune to getting a fine for something genuinely wrong, we're all human, but the fact remains that it's designed for the once or twice that you may happen to make a mistake and you are REWARDED with the benefit of the doubt for those minimal times by having the priviledge of getting to keep your licence and earn your points back. Anyone who loses points shouldn't start ing about how unfair it is and realise it's a wake up call (or perhaps a bit of bad luck that won't be repeated).

I'm not someone's wife, girlfriend, I don't drive a Corolla and I don't have a lower average speed or inability to have fun. I'm an enthusiast who loves his Motor Racing, Rally and all that is fast and octane-related. I drive at least 30,000km average per year and in multiple vehicles, my primary one being a sports hatch that's lowered, has an exhaust and alloy wheels with sticky tyres. I enjoy my driving FAR too much to throw it away with constant stupid flouting of the road rules. You won't change the rules by breaking them consistently, you'll only lose your right to break them.

Go and buy a bloody PS2, GT4 and a projector and take it out there instead of complaining that you get done a couple of times for 15km/h over and you're history. If I can be a red-blooded fanatic with a hearbeat and have never had more than one single parking ticket in 6 years of driving (ALL UNDER 25 years old min you) then anyone can. Taxi drivers, Bus drivers, Mums, Dads, Politicians, Fat Richos and P-Platers. Not everyone's ability is the same, but we've all got a brain and the ability to reason although that's at times open to debate... So reason with yourself and start enjoying the privilige of driving, at least that way the rest of us can concentrate on any issues that might actually be genuinely an issue in the world, such as what cereal to have for breakfast or what shirt to wear to work. So long as you're gainfully employed of course...

[LTDHO]

Just fines will not work. Because the wealthy can brake more laws due to having more money.
Everyone should have the same amount of points, just because you spend more time on the road doesn't mean you can brake more laws!
How about you pay a percentage of the value of your vehicle?
Each year you declare to the ATO the value of your cars. This is the same to which you would expect your insurance to pay you. That would be fair.
Only downside is those who drive sh1theaps only. But the point system still stands.

[EL_futuraistic]

Is this a serious thread???

Sorry to sound synical but come on.

The idea of road rules, is to govern the use of the roads. I didnt know the idea of demerit points was to stop the rich people simply paying fines without consequences, but that makes perfect sense. If you drive for a living, doing many millions of kilometers every year then why should you be any different. As most replies have said you should be more wary of road offences so you dont lose your licence.

What is the point of a system that favours people who drive lots of mileage?? Sure you need your licence for work. Well other people need it to take their kids places, others to get to church.

What is the point of a system that favours the wealthy people?? Why should they be punished for earning more money than everyone else. They are entitled to drive like everyone else.

I think the current system is pretty fair, i live in victoria which is the Revenue Raising Capital of Aus, but if your sensible its not an issue.

Whether your a courier, tradie, or a corporate banker in ur M5 BMW

If your speeding, running red lights, dropping burnouts or whatever............ IF your breaking the law, you deserve to be fined. And if you have lost enough points to warrant a licence suspension then DEAL WITH IT. You only have yourself to blame :P

BTW i only have 2 points left

[MITCHAY]

Im on my Ps and still got 4 points left that i know about. Ive got a warning for speedn and i didnt get fined because he could tell it was an innocent mistake and was my first offence.

Ive got pulled over for speeding again and the officer said he was goin to fine me but it never came probably cause i questioned the accusation which he knew he had no evidence on me. If im speedin and get caught i wont like it but i wont complain about it either.

[parawolf]

I must agree with zetec on this one. Public roads are not there for your enjoyment. They are there as means of safe transportation for all. 100km/h on a highway is set as a safe speed for an average driver, in an average car, in average conditions can safely maintain and respond to. This does not mean that if you are in a better than average car you can drive faster.

If you want to break the speed limit, and therefore break the law, don't whinge when you get a fine. If you still want to drive fast and have fun, join a car club, and do it at a CAMS sanctioned track and race meet. Or go to the 1/4 mile drags at Calder/WSID/AIR/etc.

Do not do it on my roads that I am using to drive to a friends place, and definately don't do it on a road where parents are driving with babies on board.

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by parawolf

I must agree with zetec on this one. Public roads are not there for your enjoyment. They are there as means of safe transportation for all. 100km/h on a highway is set as a safe speed for an average driver, in an average car, in average conditions can safely maintain and respond to. This does not mean that if you are in a better than average car you can drive faster.

If you want to break the speed limit, and therefore break the law, don't whinge when you get a fine. If you still want to drive fast and have fun, join a car club, and do it at a CAMS sanctioned track and race meet. Or go to the 1/4 mile drags at Calder/WSID/AIR/etc.

Do not do it on my roads that I am using to drive to a friends place, and definately don't do it on a road where parents are driving with babies on board.

i agree 100% :

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They always say that they have demerit points because wealthy people can afford to keep paying the fines. The demerit points affect less wealthy people alot more because of the jobs they have, people with high paying jobs generally arnt expected to drive around all day for work. With the road laws these days pretty much everyone breaks several rules everytime they drive, the more you drive the more chance you will get fined for one of the small mistakes everyone makes when they drive in australia. How is it at all fair for a tradesmen who has to drive 50-100k a year who has to drive around different roads everyday to have the same amount of points as a wealthy exec who has a 15km round trip to work eachday and gets to take the same route and never worry about crazy speedlimit placement that changes 50 times in the same road?

At my work they have had to start employing people to drive vans + tradesmen around after p plater employees lose their license for 2 x 11km speeding fines in a year thanks to useless placement of speedlimit signs or cameras on hills, you can't afford to fire them because of the money invested in training them and theres not even people around to take their jobs if you could afford to retrain them.

I dont agree. Im not a tradesman (im certainly not a wealthy executive but i do work in an office) but i have to be just as careful as anyone else out there on the road. Although my job would be possible without a driver's licence, it would make life much more difficult.

I think to say that "people with high paying jobs generally arnt expected to drive around all day for work" is waaaaay too general.

This is Australia - if you earn $50k or $50mio you get fined the same and you get the same demerits. I dunno about you guys but that's the way i like it.

Stop worrying about what other people earn and how they drive. Pay attention and you wont get ticketed.

Dole bludgers? Hmmm... another topic altogether, but i'd love someone to start a thread on em :

Originally Posted by zetec

Why can't we all just shut up and stop getting fined for crying out loud? Anyone who tries to use the excuse "everyone will get fined a few times" obviously either can't drive, doesn't want to know how to drive properly, or is just incredibly ignorant and doesn't care. Nobody is immune to getting a fine for something genuinely wrong, we're all human, but the fact remains that it's designed for the once or twice that you may happen to make a mistake and you are REWARDED with the benefit of the doubt for those minimal times by having the priviledge of getting to keep your licence and earn your points back. Anyone who loses points shouldn't start ing about how unfair it is and realise it's a wake up call (or perhaps a bit of bad luck that won't be repeated).

I'm not someone's wife, girlfriend, I don't drive a Corolla and I don't have a lower average speed or inability to have fun. I'm an enthusiast who loves his Motor Racing, Rally and all that is fast and octane-related. I drive at least 30,000km average per year and in multiple vehicles, my primary one being a sports hatch that's lowered, has an exhaust and alloy wheels with sticky tyres. I enjoy my driving FAR too much to throw it away with constant stupid flouting of the road rules. You won't change the rules by breaking them consistently, you'll only lose your right to break them.

Go and buy a bloody PS2, GT4 and a projector and take it out there instead of complaining that you get done a couple of times for 15km/h over and you're history. If I can be a red-blooded fanatic with a hearbeat and have never had more than one single parking ticket in 6 years of driving (ALL UNDER 25 years old min you) then anyone can. Taxi drivers, Bus drivers, Mums, Dads, Politicians, Fat Richos and P-Platers. Not everyone's ability is the same, but we've all got a brain and the ability to reason although that's at times open to debate... So reason with yourself and start enjoying the privilige of driving, at least that way the rest of us can concentrate on any issues that might actually be genuinely an issue in the world, such as what cereal to have for breakfast or what shirt to wear to work. So long as you're gainfully employed of course...

Can you say you never go over the speed limit by 2%? I have never been fined either, the odds are most people will be ok but that doesn't mean some people won't get completely screwed over by it.

The other day I saw a private speed camera parked around a bend on a very busy 2 lane road. The way he was parked forced 2 lanes to quickly merge into 1 as they came around the bend and he was booking people as they sped up to be able get into gaps in the right lane traffic. You always run the risk of getting booked by something like this or a faulty speed camera or a incorectly deployed police radar and the more you drive the bigger the risk.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Can you say you never go over the speed limit by 2%? I have never been fined either, the odds are most people will be ok but that doesn't mean some people won't get completely screwed over by it.

The other day I saw a private speed camera parked around a bend on a very busy 2 lane road. The way he was parked forced 2 lanes to quickly merge into 1 as they came around the bend and he was booking people as they sped up to be able get into gaps in the right lane traffic. You always run the risk of getting booked by something like this or a faulty speed camera or a incorectly deployed police radar and the more you drive the bigger the risk.

I can say that I may occasionally go over the speed limit, however this is rare as I use cruise control all the time at all speeds from 60km/h and above. If I go over the speed limit, I do it consciencely and I am aware it increases my risk of an accident, increases the potential injury to myself and others in an accident, and leaves me exposed to getting fined.

However, this is not the same as people that about getting caught for being 10 - 15km/h multiple times in a year. That is just not learning : and being thoughtless to your actions. If you can afford to speed 10-15km/h then you can afford to pay the fine, you can afford to lose your licence and you can afford the risk of greater injury to yourself and others. Public roads are not for breaking the law on.

[zetec]

If I am correct 2% above the limit won't get you booked either... I'm no limit pusher, but I agree that if I got caught doing 66km/h in something like this situation I'd be peeved, but there ain't much I can do cept fight it in court...

[Tote]

[QUOTE=MITCHAY]I think demerit points deter speeding more than fines. Fines can be paid. Points you cant buy. /snip

I used to know someone in the RTA who would disagree with you..............

Regards,
Tote

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Tote

I used to know someone in the RTA who would disagree with you..............

Lol. Yeah i think i might need to order a point. Think i lost one today but have to wait. Was doin maybe 105-110 in a 100 but there is always bigger fish to fry on that road. Oh wells sh*t happens. My fault and ive got nobody else to blame. Cop it on the chin and get over it.

[NAK302]

[QUOTE=Tote]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I think demerit points deter speeding more than fines. Fines can be paid. Points you cant buy. /snip

I used to know someone in the RTA who would disagree with you..............

Regards,
Tote

hehehe computer information is as good as what is fed into them, or deleted out of them.

[Des]

Originally Posted by zetec

If I am correct 2% above the limit won't get you booked either... I'm no limit pusher, but I agree that if I got caught doing 66km/h in something like this situation I'd be peeved, but there ain't much I can do cept fight it in court...

In VIC it will. Their cameras are set to be 3km/h over the limit. To me this is criminal, as (from what I can remember) the ADR's aren't this stringent. I was in VIC for work earlier this year and had to drive from the Airport down to Geelong in a hire car. I was paranoid all the time as I'm used to the more reasonable policing here in NSW. Privitising speed cameras is just plain stupid, you guys need to speak up at poll time and oust those b@rstards.... out:

[EL_futuraistic]

Des is correct. The tough 2% leaniency in Victoria is a joke, and ADR's do allow state that a 10% leaniency is tolerable.... which is applicable to Vehicle manufacterers and importers. However each state is entitled to make their own laws. For some reason in Victoria Mr Bracks and Christine Nixon seem to think that attacking speed is the real reason for road fatalities, well the revenue raised by speed camera's certainly justifys it even if people are still dying on the roads. Unfortunately, its all well and good to say vote out the bastards, but who else is there??? Robert Doyle??

[parawolf]

I've got an idea. It isn't going to be fabulous and people will shout me down. But how about you don't get full 12 deremit points to your position until you have, say, 4 years of continuous vehicle licence under your belt.

This would mean that for the 'average' person, gets their L's at 16, P's at 18, Full at 21 (is that right? I can't remember) and you have the default 4 or 6 points of a P plater until they turn 25 assuming they have not lost their licence in that period. This is assuming Victoria licencing and registration rules.

So - what are peoples thoughts on that as an idea to forcibly control learner drivers.