Qantas/Union meeting today - Page 2

svo347 · 09-03-2006, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

Now if this means that Australian workers have to come down to an Asian workers wage...not on. We the unionists fought hard and long and sacrificed our lives for what YOU have now.

So analyse the capitalist propoganda and then tell me you will take a 50% paycut.

Bingo......

347_XR8 · 09-03-2006, 09:57 PM

Yeah well, the IR reforms are another kettle of fish. Which is gonna effect me and it sucks!!
So aviation, IR. Quotes Monty Python: what have the romans ever done for us?

Tote · 09-03-2006, 10:12 PM

Yes, Jobs are being commoditised and outsourced, that means that as an employee you have to stay ahead of the curve. Unfortunately the days are gone in a lot of technology based industries where you could start as an unskilled labourer at 16 and retire at the top of the heap at 60.
The unions have lost a lot of battles fighting the inevitable. Look at the rail industry, thousands of jobs lost to tecnological change in the seventies and eighties and despite strikes they lost the battle on that front.
There is most definately a place for the union movement but they have to make themselves relevent to the workers and adjust to the realities of today's workplace, there still are plenty of battles that can be won inside large corporations.
The workers who will prosper in this environment are those who can adapt their skills to new industries or job roles.
To use the IT industry as another example, 7 years ago an MCSE and some experience was a ticket to a well paid job, now, if you moved to Bangalore you might get $7.00 an hour with the same qualification.
Regards,
Tote

MoreHPformyXR6 · 09-03-2006, 10:22 PM

The unions have lost a lot of battles fighting the inevitable. Look at the rail industry, thousands of jobs lost to tecnological change in the seventies and eighties and despite strikes they lost the battle on that front.
There is most definately a place for the union movement but they have to make themselves relevent to the workers and adjust to the realities of today's workplace, there still are plenty of battles that can be won inside large corporations.
The workers who will prosper in this environment are those who can adapt their skills to new industries or job roles.

Exactly you have to pick your battles dont expand energy on something that is no worth fighting (something are going to happend like or not)

Learn to adapt & move with the technology & there is always a place for you.

MO · 09-03-2006, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreHPformyXR6

The unions have lost a lot of battles fighting the inevitable. Look at the rail industry, thousands of jobs lost to tecnological change in the seventies and eighties and despite strikes they lost the battle on that front.
There is most definately a place for the union movement but they have to make themselves relevent to the workers and adjust to the realities of today's workplace, there still are plenty of battles that can be won inside large corporations.
The workers who will prosper in this environment are those who can adapt their skills to new industries or job roles.

Exactly you have to pick your battles dont expand energy on something that is no worth fighting (something are going to happend like or not)

Learn to adapt & move with the technology & there is always a place for you.

So YOU have given in to the propoganda....you will regret it...you have just committed youself and your family..to living in poverty.

Yes quite true ...pick your battles...unfortunately the current fed gov have thrown so many red herrings out there it's unreal.

I would reccomend all of you try to obtain a book called "The H.R.Nicholls Society"

Arbitration in Contempt. Copy right 1986

ISBN 0958838607

THIS IS THE BLUE PRINT FOR THE CURRENT FED GOV'S IR REFORMS.

parawolf · 10-03-2006, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

You said it in your statement...global economy equals lower wages and conditions for all 'first world economies...in order to compete wages and conditions have to go to the lowest denominator'

Think about it its about profit at any cost.

Now if this means that Australian workers have to come down to an Asian workers wage...not on. We the unionists fought hard and long and sacrificed our lives for what YOU have now.

So analyse the capitalist propoganda and then tell me you will take a 50% paycut.

If you can quote me on where I said anything like that - go ahead.

It was a matter of dwindling supply of trained, educated and qualified SysOps and SysProgs locally. There is also dwindling supply in the USA, UK and other typical mainframe operational countries. It just happens that to make a calculated decision for the long term future of this form of Information Technology, we needed to source personally where there is an abundance of skills.

Oh, and don't give me that crap about what the unions have fought hard and long for - I saw exactly what Unions did for my mum as a public service high school teacher, and the first thing I did was join the FSU within 2 weeks of starting my job. However i'm nothing thinking that the IT game is still based in the 1970's. I'm looking forward to the way we are operating in 2010 and beyond - and for IT, it is all about distributed computing globally with globally arranged support. The terms "any platform, any time, any where" gets used quite a bit.

347Stroker · 10-03-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ringo

That is sure acting like our great patriotic International Airline isn't it? I know their Union is to blame....after all the Union has secured such good pay rates for its members that it is making Aircraft Maintenance in Australia un-viable....

.
The union has nothing to do with the pay rates, the WORKERS fought and went on strike, not the UNION. The union as you call it is a collective of people. All they do is really organise, and assist with plans.
A union is a group of people, not an iron bar.

Do you think you get 4 weeks paid leave a year, because your boss likes you?

Do you get sick days, because he cares?

Do you get leave loading because his wallet is a bit full?

Do you work a 38 hour week, because he thinks you might need family time and rest?

If unions didnt exist, and unionists didnt fight (i know i do) you would have nothing....and if you all bend over and let these new IR rules in, you will have nothing.....

Solidarity comrades

XA-Coupe · 10-03-2006, 07:51 AM

Guys.. show a bit of respect for people with differing opinions or this thread will evaporate.

4.9 EF Futura · 10-03-2006, 09:51 AM

IR is not a one sided story. There will be people taken advantage of but to assume this will be the majority of people is pure speculation with a healthy dash of unionism.

People are being empowered - indivdually. No wonder the unions are scared. Their campaigns against IR reform concentrated on telling the worker that they are powerless - that they have absolutely no 'hand' in the bargaining process.

Why arent the unions doing their best to empower their members? Why are they not putting the message out their that each and every member is a valuable contributor to their employer and that this in itself is the most powerful bargaining tool anyone could ever have? They could be doing so much good for their members in the current environment yet they are more concerned with taking political potshots and putting the UNION's interests forward - which are distinctly different to the WORKER'S interests.

Their role in the workplace could be so much more dynamic but their ideas and methods are set in concrete.

Ive been under an AWA for almost 2 years now and have never been better off. Flexibility, better pay, the ability to cherry pick which entitlements suit me and which i would rather subsitute for a higher wage. Anyone who thinks they are unable to bargain their own position is SELLING THEMSELVES SHORT. And if the union is telling you that you're not in a position to bargain with your employer on an individual basis then they are selling you short as well.

Quote:

The workers who will prosper in this environment are those who can adapt their skills to new industries or job roles.

EXACTLY. We can never sit still. We must always be moving forward. Each and everyone of us.

You want to see Australia fall behind because we are caught in outdated notions of the labour market? Or do we want to move forward and beat the world at its own game?

Quote:

Now if this means that Australian workers have to come down to an Asian workers wage...not on. We the unionists fought hard and long and sacrificed our lives for what YOU have now.

John - what exactly makes "us" so much better than "them"? Why should we be payed 3 or 4 times what they are? Should the focus not be on seeing equitable pay for these people?

You really are willing to see a long term collapse in our economy for the short term benefit to Australian workers. You're willing to remove your nose to spite your face? This is not capitalist progaganda - this is basic economics which applies to both capitalist and socialist principles.

I'll be damned if im going to let this outdated thinking bring our country to its knees. And i will use every ounce of my deomocratic right, every single vote that I cast, to see the long term viability of this country survive and to elect the people who will make this happen.

parawolf · 10-03-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

EXACTLY. We can never sit still. We must always be moving forward. Each and everyone of us.

You want to see Australia fall behind because we are caught in outdated notions of the labour market? Or do we want to move forward and beat the world at its own game?

I'll be damned if im going to let this outdated thinking bring our country to its knees. And i will use every ounce of my deomocratic right, every single vote that I cast, to see the long term viability of this country survive and to elect the people who will make this happen.

I'll i'm all for the uneducated and unskilled to be protected in terms of base salary and conditions - what Australia should be concentrating on for the future is the value added service provision. Australia needs to be putting more into relevant education (god knows Australia is massively behind some Asian countries in regards to primary school and secondary school education - example Japan). However these state and federal governments are not spending enough money here - and I hold both to blame.

An example, is why do we still build here in Australia cars with the blue oval badge by hand on a production line? Why are these processes not more automated - the robots and infrastructure is available (see a Toyota manufacturing facility).

We need to become smarter workers, not a mass of workers.

Anyway... is this in danger of becoming massively off topic.

MO · 10-03-2006, 09:58 PM

Parawolf....as for quoting you...I merely extrapolated your statement.

bluovl · 10-03-2006, 10:01 PM

Unfortunately this type of situation is going to become more prevelent, and it makes me scared for our future.
Competing against other countries where they will work for crap will become the norm.
A couple of years ago when Peter Reith sent masked security guards with dogs onto the docks in Melbourne marked the start of the current governments attack on its own people. Newspapers at the time reported bodgey surveys that the ordinary Australian was concerned with what was happening on the docks.
That was rubbish and a push by Howard & Reith to impose their own agenda.
If waterfront reform was so important to the 'average Australian', who can tell me what the situation is now in relation to output, containers off loaded per hour etc.?
Waterside workers were consistantly compared to Asian ports where output & workloads were higher. It was never mentioned at the time that workers in Asian ports worked extremley long shifts without a break. This meant being in a container crane for 14 hours and crapping in a bucket they took down at the end of their shift. Who would be happy to see that here?
The current governments own ministers have let slip that more radical IR reform is on its way.
Get ready for workplace upheaval. I see that in past threads members say that if you are a loyal worker that the boss will look after you.
It may get to a stage that they cant.

ReGiE · 10-03-2006, 10:13 PM

i work out at syd airport and ИИИИ it was quiet there. it was like the entire base was in lockdown mode. very errie. We had our meetings at 6am this morning and it painted a clearer picture on whats happeing there.

not much work got done today thats for sure

MO · 10-03-2006, 10:17 PM

4.9...you are so wrong...as for us getting the third world workers equal pay OZ unions have for many years been trying to get this for them....unfortunately the competition for jobs is so over the top it's not funny.

E.G. I am a third world employer I need 10 ppl to work at my factory...these ppl say they cannot work for less than $5.00 an hour...I say I'm only going to pay you $3.00 an hour. There are 1,000 ppl willing to work for $3.00 an hour.

It is quite simple really the labour market is huge...the employer will pay only those who will work for a pittance.
Which is what OZ was before Trade Unions....I.E. The Shearers Strike in the early days of OZ...which resulted in the execution of seven so called rebels...who led the strike for better pay and conditions.

Why do I here you ask.......because they would not work for a pittance and be cowtowed by the Land Barons of the time...in other words slaves.

A book for you to read it is a dramatised true account of the time..."Land of Hope an Australian family saga." by Gay Scales..1986...ISBN 0 85561 062 X.(Pbk)

It is also out on dvd I think from ABC bookshops?

I would also suggest to all those that have a problem with unions go and visit "The Workers Museum" at Barcaldine,QLD...where the Tree of Knowledge is..which is where the Labour party/movement was born over a hundred years ago.