Police LPG Falcons = Lemon?

[Bobman]

From my significant experience with LPG AU & BA Falcons, the BA model was not all it was cracked up to be, especially in E-Gas form.

With regards to the police issues, this is common but was also common in petrol XR8's under police trim, so perhaps all the drain due to the police equipment must have some affect on the vehicle's altenator etc.

However a blocked idle jet or faulty solenoids or posts are very common and this is probably whats happened to some of those police cars.

[OzJavelin]

Even during the worst fuel crisis of the mid seventies when Americans were queued up to buy petrol (gasoline), police agencies were excempted from most of this. While most Americans were seriously looking at buying a Toyota Corolla, American cops were still gunning about in 440ci (7.2L) Plymouth Fury's and Dodge Monacos. Although I am an advocate of LPG use, I see no real reason why emergency services need use it. At the moment there doesn't appear to be a "shortage" of fuel, just an increased cost. If we expect a cop or paramedic on the the scene immediately, give them the best transport available within reason .. and if that means them driving I6/V8 petrol engines then so be it.

[max]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Regardless of whether or not coppers drive them right, if they are no good, get rid of them. My experience with gas cars is not good either, in any conditions. Gutless, hard to start and unreliable.

Gee, sorry to hear of your bad experiences. I must admit when I first entered the LPG market with an XE dual-fuel and have bought two others since I have never looked back. My AU11 is facory duel-fuel and is far fom gutless, whislt my Fairlane is a duel-fuel conversion. Not a spot of bother from either of them in a combined 200,000 kms of running. Never missed a beat, any conditions. However, I am not sure I would like to run a dedicated gas car. Something about not being able to fill a 4 litre can with LPG and pour it in the tank on the side of the road bothers me.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by qwigybo

maybe they should fill them up at the start of each shift regardless of the note haha

That is a lot to ask of a a Detective...........

[Ozfords]

The way Cops treat cars is almost similar to the way a crook treats a stolen joy riding car.

All Police cars are thrashed in Urgent Duty situations. The amount of paper work due at the end of a job requires us to continually return to the station to complete it. Whilst the Rodeo/Falcon/Commodore/Patrol/Triton... cools off in the parking. Then the moment a urgent job is broadcast you're in and gunning it.

The fleet has little troubles, Rodeo's freakout almost after turning them off from a quick response and take a while to start up, old Rodeo's got stuck in third if they hit a hard bump and the older 4 cylinder Rodeo's simply exploded. BA Falcon's bottom out with such ease its crazy. ABS and Airbag lights in Commodores are the other problem.

A complex system like the E-Gas Falcon's don't belong in such a unique fleet. You need tried and proven cars that don't freeze.

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

Maybe it is propaganda by the pro-Holden members of the police force who want to go back to driving Holdens.

Lucky for Ford that Holden didn't release a dedicated LPG Alloytech engine with direct injection.

FF

I dunno whats stopping them, they are prgressivley adding crewmans into the fleet to take over the rodeos as they are needed now, because the crewmans are allowed to pursuit and the rodeo's aren't.

Most of the cops I have spoken to said they prefer the SS but the XR6 Turbo is good as well. Not mention of the XR8's.

Holdens engine may not be dedicated but it is multi-point injection IIRC, which is one up on the falcon setup.

I wish the world would get over the bull LPG phase, it is all seriousley , go diesel, when Holden and ford bring out their diesel family cars soon, I really hope they market them well and show how viable they are.

Stoney!

[460cixy]

the ba egas are forever cracking the solioids on the converter where the au dident do that as often. how ever im yet to see a egas ba stop cause of a cracked solioid. if these egas falcons were as bad as there saying i would see them comeing to work every day on a truck but the fact is i dont. its all a bit of a beat up not helped by those with a lpg phobia. and as for going diesel cheers for the laugh mate i nearly wet my self

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 460cixy

the ba egas are forever cracking the solioids on the converter where the au dident do that as often. how ever im yet to see a egas ba stop cause of a cracked solioid. if these egas falcons were as bad as there saying i would see them comeing to work every day on a truck but the fact is i dont. its all a bit of a beat up not helped by those with a lpg phobia. and as for going diesel cheers for the laugh mate i nearly wet my self

I nearly wet myself too. How is diesel superior to LPG if it costs 3 times as much. LPG is all about cheapness to run, not how it runs.

[fordy-two]

Where I work they run a fleet of about 20-30 station wagons. Over the years they have had both commodores and falcons. They last went to the falcons cos the commodores suspension couldn't hack the weight with all the gear they add on and carry. Now every single one is a BA LPG. Every single one has had the same problem related to the LPG. Ok, ok, not every single one, but genuinely over half. The blokes driving them don't thrash them(too much gear inside) and pretty much don't care if it's a commodore or a falcon, but they say they'll never have a BA LPG again.

[460cixy]

Originally Posted by fordy-two

Where I work they run a fleet of about 20-30 station wagons. Over the years they have had both commodores and falcons. They last went to the falcons cos the commodores suspension couldn't hack the weight with all the gear they add on and carry. Now every single one is a BA LPG. Every single one has had the same problem related to the LPG. Ok, ok, not every single one, but genuinely over half. The blokes driving them don't thrash them(too much gear inside) and pretty much don't care if it's a commodore or a falcon, but they say they'll never have a BA LPG again.

so what was going wrong with them? no point saying the same problem related to gas with out some detail

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I nearly wet myself too. How is diesel superior to LPG if it costs 3 times as much. LPG is all about cheapness to run, not how it runs.

LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent. Diesel might be the same price as unleade but comparing the Diesel vectra with the PULP vectra u have a fuel conusmption of 6.6L/100k's for the diesel and 10.5 for the Petrol. And thats an average, city driving saves quite a lot.

Same goes between the Petrol and Diesel VW Polo I was looking at!

And with longer servicing periods on diesel now and an engine that would tripple is life time of that of a gas engine, and hold their value better, I know what I would be going for. Services are very simple on diesel too, shorter than that of a petrol engine and much shorter than that of LPG engined cars, it equates to cheaper servicing costs.

BMW's cheapest car to run in the 3 series range and best performer in europe is their Diesel engined 3 sereis, don't knock them till you try, msot of the new golfs on the road now are diesel, we will start going the same way as england soon, specially with holden releasing a 3.0 DOHC turbo diesel for the commodore late '07 - early '08' and same for falcon soon after.

something around the range of 40% + cars bought in england are diesel (htir diesel is a little chaper too) and not to mention new diesel engines are a much cleaner burning engine than petrol and slightly cleaner than LPG

Don't laugh u may just own one one day.

Stoney!

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent. !

Actually on the weekend LPG was mid 50cents a litre and petrol was $1.49 a litre which is 3 times as much. The latest LPG injection systems use the same if not less L/100km as petrol vehicles.

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Diesel might be the same price as unleaded

Diesel is not the same price as unleaded it is usually around 10c a litre more.

Not doubting that diesel is a good alternative but it dosn't hold a candle to LPG.

[dogwatch2]

"on the weekend LPG was mid 50cents a litre and petrol was $1.49 a litre which is 3 times as much. The latest LPG injection systems use the same if not less L/1" ---------The fuel economy for gas is still a fair bit higher -- the factory figures for the commodore exec.sedan say 11.1 l/100k for petrol but 14.8l/100k for gas using the seq. gas system

"LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent." -
I've had two gas cars (VN commodore and ED falcon) and the fuel economy on gas was about 25% higher, not 1.7 times.
So, if you do high km, LPG is still worth it and I would say would work out cheaper than diesel.

[turboute]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent. Diesel might be the same price as unleade but comparing the Diesel vectra with the PULP vectra u have a fuel conusmption of 6.6L/100k's for the diesel and 10.5 for the Petrol. And thats an average, city driving saves quite a lot.

Same goes between the Petrol and Diesel VW Polo I was looking at!

And with longer servicing periods on diesel now and an engine that would tripple is life time of that of a gas engine, and hold their value better, I know what I would be going for. Services are very simple on diesel too, shorter than that of a petrol engine and much shorter than that of LPG engined cars, it equates to cheaper servicing costs.

BMW's cheapest car to run in the 3 series range and best performer in europe is their Diesel engined 3 sereis, don't knock them till you try, msot of the new golfs on the road now are diesel, we will start going the same way as england soon, specially with holden releasing a 3.0 DOHC turbo diesel for the commodore late '07 - early '08' and same for falcon soon after.

something around the range of 40% + cars bought in england are diesel (htir diesel is a little chaper too) and not to mention new diesel engines are a much cleaner burning engine than petrol and slightly cleaner than LPG

Don't laugh u may just own one one day.

Stoney!

Under half - 49c vs 1.35 36% of the cost (not 50%), economy goes from 13-15L/ 100 to 17-20L 100 (1.3 times - this is my driving). Now 1.3 x 36% is still 50% of the initial running costs, so the average deisel has to be running at half the fuel usage to get the same savings.

I.e. Deisel hilux has to get 5.5L/100 compared to a petrol hilux converted to gas which started at 11L/100. 6.5 will be acheivable but I doubt you would get 5.5.

Also the new SGI setups get equal economy to petrol so the running costs will be 36% rather than 50%.

As for deisels - while the economy starts good and they start burning clean - when the injectors wear this dissapears. I have seen a few X5's around here that are putting out a bit too much smoke, even saw a deisel golf/polo something small VW the other day that had noticable smoke coming out of it.

[Stoney!]

Basing it on my prices around here, 57 CPL for LPG 135 CPL for unleaded and 145 CPL for diesel I got the following running costs for a Commodore 11.2L/100 for Petrol 16.1 for gas and 7 for Diesel (approx based on diesel vectra at same weight which is 6.5 L/100k's) over 400 K's a week. (my average K's)

Weekly running costs.
Petrol $60.48
LPG $36.71
Diesel $40.60

Without the higher servicing costs over diesel and not factoring in the much higher durability and reliability of a diesel engine your saving (on fuel costs only) around 200 bucks a year over a diesel, by running an LPG engine, it would be great if I had the time to gather all the stats into my excel spreadsheet so i could work the TRUE costs out of operating the 3 engine types.

Looking at petrol though its rather scary.

Its $1033.76 cheaper to fuel a diesel than a petrol car for a year
and $1236.14 cheaper to fuel a LPG car than petrol for a year.

I'm sure if a real test was done it might start pushing people to either alternative fuel, fueling costs alone have made me think about it.

Stoney!

[TURBOTAXI]

Firstly, I think the police people dont like them.

Secondly, It is my understanding that the only Police Vehicle that should be exceeding posted speed limits is a hwy patrol car.

GD cars are not allowed to pursue. They are also not allowed to drive at excessive speed.

A BA LPG falcon in use by police should only be travelling at the posted limit in most circumstances.

[TURBOTAXI]

My LPG cars get closer to 12l/100k

[Ozfords]

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

Firstly, I think the police people dont like them.

Secondly, It is my understanding that the only Police Vehicle that should be exceeding posted speed limits is a hwy patrol car.

GD cars are not allowed to pursue. They are also not allowed to drive at excessive speed.

A BA LPG falcon in use by police should only be travelling at the posted limit in most circumstances.

Incorrect, in NSW Police cars are categorised from most suitable for high speed travel to least. All NSW Police cars can in appropriate circumstances break the rules of the road when required to assist other officers and members of the public.

I don't know what gave you the idea that GD's cars are limited by the sign posted limits.

If that were the case there would be alot of unhappy people out there after waiting for long periods of time for Police General Duties cars to arrive in order to provide assistance for a myriad of dangerous incidents.

9 times out of 10 those Rodeos are the first response to emergencies.

[460cixy]

i would not be so fast as to say those small diesels last as long as an i6 on gas have not seen too many 4banger diesels with a milliom k on them larger diesels how ever do last small high speed diesels dont have the life span of there big slow reving brothers

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Don't laugh u may just own one one day.

Stoney!

I would never own a diesel. If I wanted economy i'd go for LPG, but unless its a V8 or turbo 6 I wouldn't bother. The only diesel I'd consider would be a V8 Turbo diesel like the new Range Rover engine or the new 6.4 Ford TD for the new F series only because they make mountains of torque, but not something you'd call fun to drive like a responsive petrol engine.

[TURBOTAXI]

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Incorrect, in NSW Police cars are categorised from most suitable for high speed travel to least. All NSW Police cars can in appropriate circumstances break the rules of the road when required to assist other officers and members of the public.

I don't know what gave you the idea that GD's cars are limited by the sign posted limits.

If that were the case there would be alot of unhappy people out there after waiting for long periods of time for Police General Duties cars to arrive in order to provide assistance for a myriad of dangerous incidents.

9 times out of 10 those Rodeos are the first response to emergencies.

MMmmmmm. OK I am not a Police officer.

However I stand by my belief that in NSW ONLY highway pursuit cars can pursue another vehicle. GD cars are not allowed to pursue other vehicles.

Perhaps you can cut and paste the relevant NSW police policies around how cars other than Highway Patrol vehicles are to operate on public roads.

(ie the part that says they can operate above posted limits or beyond accpeted road rules)

I am happy to be proved wrong - it would be a learning experience for me.

[Ozfords]

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 305

Exemption for drivers of police vehicles

305 Exemption for drivers of police vehicles

(1) A provision of the Australian Road Rules does not apply to the driver of a police vehicle if:
(a) in the circumstances:
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care, and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply, and
(b) if the vehicle is a motor vehicle that is moving—the vehicle is displaying a blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm.
Note: "Motor vehicle"and "police vehicle"are defined in the dictionary.

(2) Subrule (1) (b) does not apply to the driver if, in the circumstances, it is reasonable:
(a) not to display the light or sound the alarm, or
(b) for the vehicle not to be fitted or equipped with a blue or red flashing light or an alarm.

Australian Road Rules

[schmidty]

What about the maintainance side of owning a diesel? The economy is fantastic, but the things people dont ofter think about is the more frequent and costly maintenence and the fact that most of them are turbos which doesnt do much for insurance!
Oldies had a 97 model 40th anniversary 80 series landcruiser. Did the big end, cost 10k for the change over motor, plus labour. they sold it and bought a new 100 series Turbo Diesel. The turbo diesel 100 series also costs $13,000 more than the V8! (59k Vs $72k) Saw their insurance renewal yesterday, $1600 for 2 rating 1 drivers in a rural area in their 50s with rating 1 and good driving history. Classed as a high performance vehicle because its a turbo!

They are cheap to run if u only look at the price you pay at the bowser but good luck if u own one a few years down the track when someting breaks!

[Redrum]

diesel all torque, no go!!!

[Stoney!]

All torque no go my butt!!!!

Have a look at the small 1.9 now in the holden astra and the BMW 3 series deisels cloking it in under 6 seconds, and the 3.0 litre turbo diesel V6 found in the opel vectras just as quick as the 3.2 (found in aussie vectras) which is a very quick engine, to quote from an article "the most usable torque curve this side of a bugatti veyron" (being a quad turbo V16 i think).

Ok the insurance might be something I over looked I will have to have a look, landrovers are known in the automotive industry for their very old tech engines and chassis dynamics, mechanics warn customers to steer clear.

Small diesel still do out live petrol engines mainly due to the amount of lubrication found in the fuel itself, a diesel will last a lot longer distance on low oil than any petrol engine.

Servicing periods on the new Holden Astra diesel are 15,000k's jsut like the petrol and like the commodore, and services require less effort and time making them cheaper, to what scale i cannot answer, but can find out.... This used to be my job!

Stoney!

[TURBOTAXI]

Originally Posted by Ozfords

(1) A provision of the Australian Road Rules does not apply to the driver of a police vehicle if:
(a) in the circumstances:
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care, and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply, and

Australian Road Rules

Thanks - as I said I am happy to be corrected.

If I read the above correctly, that means that the onus is on the individual officer to decide what is or is not appropriate on the roads, and they no doubt need to be able to defend what they do.

I still have been told that cars other than Hwy Patrol are not allowed to pursue, does anyone have a take on this?

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

All torque no go my butt!!!!

Have a look at the small 1.9 now in the holden astra and the BMW 3 series deisels cloking it in under 6 seconds, and the 3.0 litre turbo diesel V6 found in the opel vectras just as quick as the 3.2 (found in aussie vectras) which is a very quick engine, to quote from an article "the most usable torque curve this side of a bugatti veyron" (being a quad turbo V16 i think).

O/T but anyway ......... once we are all driving diesels 'cos we "think" they are better - although an initial glance seems to indicate they pollute far more than LPG? - performance will all become relative anyway. It will be whos diesel is faster than whos. It won't matter if they all max out at 15sec for the quarter 'cos thats what everyone will be driving. In the dark days of the mid-to-late-seventies even Corvettes were struggling for 15/16 sec qtrs so anything near that performance "seemed" fast ..

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

All torque no go my butt!!!!

Have a look at the small 1.9 now in the holden astra and the BMW 3 series deisels cloking it in under 6 seconds, and the 3.0 litre turbo diesel V6 found in the opel vectras just as quick as the 3.2 (found in aussie vectras) which is a very quick engine, to quote from an article "the most usable torque curve this side of a bugatti veyron" (being a quad turbo V16 i think).

Ok the insurance might be something I over looked I will have to have a look, landrovers are known in the automotive industry for their very old tech engines and chassis dynamics, mechanics warn customers to steer clear.

Small diesel still do out live petrol engines mainly due to the amount of lubrication found in the fuel itself, a diesel will last a lot longer distance on low oil than any petrol engine.

Servicing periods on the new Holden Astra diesel are 15,000k's jsut like the petrol and like the commodore, and services require less effort and time making them cheaper, to what scale i cannot answer, but can find out.... This used to be my job!

Stoney!

Have not driven the two cars you make mention of but have driven many other diesels, and as I said, all torque, no go. I can't imagine the police force shelling out the money for turbo diesels...........

In relation to maintence schedules, anyone that services their cars via the service book of every 15k obviously don't push their cars. Vic Pol cars get new brake rotors every 20k! The tests to determine these schedules are controlled tests driving around a test track. Anyone who gives a hoot about their car gets at least the oil and filter changed every 5k.

[Stoney!]

T bring it down to a tee, Diesel engine are now coming to a stage where they are cleaner than LPG and can out run their petrol counterparts, and use half the fuel doing it, servicing has become more user friendly and they are an absolutely bullet proof engine.

You guys can fight to your hears content but ive driven diesels, know a friend who has a diesel car, and an speak first hand they are good, with dropping petrol prices, in 3 - 5 years time LPG won't even be viable, but diesel sure will.

Stoney!

[ClevlndStemer]

Originally Posted by Redrum

diesel all torque, no go!!!

yeah right...who won lemans this year?

i'd take a diesel anyday over LPG.