Israeli attacks on neighbouring countries = major increase to crude oil prices

[SpoolMan]

Lets say we leave this thread free from IR Laws, some keep pushing.
thread topic is:
Israeli attacks on neighbouring countries = major increase to crude oil prices

[Falcon Freak]

The record has now passed $US77 per barrel and still going up.

Oil prices

FF

[falcon91]

I thought this thread was about Oil prices? If you bothered to notice my previous attempt to bring to your attention the absolute pitiful reasons for increasing oil costs, then you will concur that fighting in a region that does NOT produce oil is a **** poor excuse for increasing oil prices! This fight is about, and always will be, Religion and Land.

The soap box is now handed over to someone else!

[Dr Smith]

As to oil, well the Fed. government raises so much "easy" revenue that it is too hard to cut say the GST component or lower the excise levies without raising revenue somewhere else.

I hate how the selling price of oil/petrol has no bearing on the costs involved in exploring, drilling, shipping, refining, distributing and then retailing its different refined products. Very few industries can "produce" a product that is traded on international markets and artificially manipulated...I say stop its tradings, charge a fair and resonable margin on the value added costs along the way and lets all be a little happier.

[BPXR6T]

I heard something interesting on the radio today. Iceland are ramping up for hydrogen production. To put things simply they poor sea water onto magma to generate steam to drive turbines which generate electricity used to make hydrogen. It is totally clean and an infinite source of energy. They are looking at a massive export strategy. Other countries with access to thermal activity like New Zealand could take advantage of this practical thinking. Imagine what could be done with all those thermal vents in the pacific. Hydrogen platforms anyone???

I think this is a good wake up call for the west and will help insulate us for the real hurt that is coming. Peak oil has already passed IMHO, I don't think the Saudi's have what they claim seeing as they're reported oil deposits haven't dropped in over 20 years. Sorry if I strayed from topic a little.

[MO]

PPL you were asked to keep the thread on track and yet the digression continues.......now just to try and bring it back....what the hell has Israel got to do with oil(except as consumers) nothing!!!!!!!

Lets all take a deep breath and consider who is the most prolific oil producer down to who is the least.
Now while your thinking about that...consider this oil has peaked and is on the down curve.

That is to say the easy to get out stuff has peaked there is still more down there but it will cost an arm and a leg to get it to the pump.

So the boffin who said we'll be paying $6.00 a litre within the next fifteen years is spot on.

Now as for a civil war unlikely try for some civil disobeidience or anarchy on a small scale.
Yes OZ could go it alone on its oil production....but for a very short time and it would be severly rationed.

Ppl the time is coming when YOU will have to use public transport..a car will be a luxury...enjoy it while you can.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by MO

Ppl the time is coming when YOU will have to use public transport..a car will be a luxury...enjoy it while you can.

A global recession is deffinately coming. When and how big nobody knows. But is 'gonna hurt big time'. So start saving your pennies.

FF

[MO]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

A global recession is deffinately coming. When and how big nobody knows. But is 'gonna hurt big time'. So start saving your pennies.

FF

Wise words...take heed everyone!

[BPXR6T]

There was a doom a gloom beat up I was watching last Sunday. They went on to mention Harvey Bay I think. They were talking about putting the rail line back in that was ripped up years ago because in future tourists won't be able to afford the fuel to get there.

If a cheap alternative isn't found then things will change that's for sure. No more picking up a $69 flight to Melbourne for a few beers with mates on a Friday arvo anymore.

[XA-Coupe]

Well, I had to go and delete a few and edit a few.. too many to individually notify the users.
This is a thread about oil prices, not about the israelis or lebanese or something political, well, except in an abstract way.

[The Stylist]

Originally Posted by FourBarrel

I heard something interesting on the radio today. Iceland are ramping up for hydrogen production. To put things simply they poor sea water onto magma to generate steam to drive turbines which generate electricity used to make hydrogen. It is totally clean and an infinite source of energy. They are looking at a massive export strategy. Other countries with access to thermal activity like New Zealand could take advantage of this practical thinking. Imagine what could be done with all those thermal vents in the pacific. Hydrogen platforms anyone???

There was an article on using abondoned unused oil and gas wells published here in New Zealand a while ago. Basically it is an similar principle to the above mentioned except they can harness the energy from lower temperatures between 30 degrees to 180 degrees. Although hydrogen was not mentioned, I'd imagine this type of application could have similar potential?

A bit more research could yeld a bit more on alternative fuels.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

A global recession is deffinately coming. When and how big nobody knows. But is 'gonna hurt big time'. So start saving your pennies.

FF

Exactly right which is why 6 dollars is highly likely to be wrong. Saving probably won't help but becoming more self sufficient would be a start.

[red_hotxr6]

Today is sunday, which is now the third serious day of fighting in that region of the world, and for some reason in brisbane the petrol prices have not risen. As a matter of fact they have fallen. Please explain.? Does this mean that from tomorrow it is going to be a $1.40 and then go upwards from there.?

[Interceptor]

IMO the "peak oil" theory is the biggest load of bull**** thats ever been served up to the public

OPEC sets the price they sell thier crude oil at, they, like everyone else, want to get richer, so they bump the price of crude oil up a lil at a time, and because its a regulated market, the world is held at OPEC's mercy

the oil companies also bump thier prices up to make thier investors (and the executives, who generally are big shareholders) more money, so they use any excuse they can to justify increasing prices, wether it be slowdowns in production, refineries not being able to meet need, conflicts disrupting supply, or just scientific mumbo jumbo designed to decieve the public, either way, they get to bump thier prices, and they dont have to justify thier actions as they are virtually unaccountable

there are oil wells up through north queensland, simply drilled, capped and hidden in the bush, i've seen one and i know a couple of older guys who say they know of a dozen or so more.... there is a LOT more oil out there to be tapped into, but the oil companies have got all the boffins spinning us a line that we're running out..... like hell we are

to lower the price of oil, make it an open market so that whoever has it can sell it for whatever price the open market dictates, not what price they want, if they want to sell thier product, they have to sell it at a cheaper price than others or it simply doesnt get sold.....

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

...I say stop its tradings, charge a fair and resonable margin on the value added costs along the way and lets all be a little happier.

Do that and the major oil companies will close the Australian refineries.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Do that and the major oil companies will close the Australian refineries.

I guess it will get to a point when we will have to take them over???
As I have said before.. There should be an alternative to petrol, yes LPG but also ethonol type fuels and market them a independants where oil companies are NOT allowed to own them....The fact that Shell [Coles] and other big companies have taken over, pushing the little guy out doesn't help either...There are way less discount stations around now!!!

[Mondie]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

IMO the "peak oil" theory is the biggest load of bull**** thats ever been served up to the public

Why, have you actually done any research on this or is it just wishful thinking?

Originally Posted by Interceptor

OPEC sets the price they sell thier crude oil at, they, like everyone else, want to get richer, so they bump the price of crude oil up a lil at a time, and because its a regulated market, the world is held at OPEC's mercy

Opec control around 1/3rd of world Oil production, they alone do not control the price.

Originally Posted by Interceptor

there are oil wells up through north queensland, simply drilled, capped and hidden in the bush, i've seen one and i know a couple of older guys who say they know of a dozen or so more.... there is a LOT more oil out there to be tapped into, but the oil companies have got all the boffins spinning us a line that we're running out..... like hell we are

Hpw do you know there is oil in those wells, they could be old wells watered out, dry, failed expolration wells or have amillion other stories behind them. If you think we are not running out you need to open your eyes.

Originally Posted by Interceptor

to lower the price of oil, make it an open market so that whoever has it can sell it for whatever price the open market dictates, not what price they want, if they want to sell thier product, they have to sell it at a cheaper price than others or it simply doesnt get sold.....

Is that not what we have now?

[4.9 EF Futura]

OPEC sets the price they sell thier crude oil at, they, like everyone else, want to get richer, so they bump the price of crude oil up a lil at a time, and because its a regulated market, the world is held at OPEC's mercy

Let's make a note of that comment. Particualrly, in the context of the following one:

to lower the price of oil, make it an open market so that whoever has it can sell it for whatever price the open market dictates, not what price they want, if they want to sell thier product, they have to sell it at a cheaper price than others or it simply doesnt get sold.....

An open market for oil - what a glorious prospect. However phil, you need not wait for such a market to arrive - you are already paticipating in it.

It appears you may be somewhat confused regarding the role which OPEC plays in the oil market. As highlighted - they are responsible for about 40% of the global supply. Stark contrast to the situation back in the 70s when they were able to effect sustained prices and particularly in 73 when they decided the US could get *********.

However with development since those days of the Gulf of Mexico (see what Rita and Katrina did to the global price of oil with disruption in the gulf??) and the North sea (in addition to this - micro attempts like we perform here) OPEC's influence over the market has fallen significantly. Their key strength now comes from the fact they are collectively the largest exporters - but a dominating force this does not make.

In fact - OPEC's (now abandoned) target price range for a barrel of oil was in the vicinty of $20 USD. This was abandoned when the market swept it past $30 USD.

The last recorded instance of OPEC manipulating the price of oil was January 2002 - when it announced production would be cut for 6 months in an effort to support the price. Almost all OPEC member nations now pump flat out ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. With the exception of Saudi Arabia who is considered the only OPEC member nation with excess prodcution up its sleeve.

Which begs the question.

The price of something which is traded on a free market can only be manipulated by two things: supply and demand. Demand is our fault, dont expect anything to change here (put your hand up if you're willing to give up your V8 daily driver??). Supply is OPEC's specialty - and therefore the only mechanism which they have to affect price.

And all but one country within OPEC are pumping at maximum capacity. Does this sound like the activity of a cartel who are attempting to drive up the price of a commodity? By supplying 95% of what they are physically capable of supplying?

Provide documentary evidence that OPEC "makes the market" (i.e. sets the price). I can provide plenty which shows that its a commodity traded on a free market.

Lol "doesnt get sold"??? Are you kidding?? You cant scratch your butt in the industrialised world without burning a barrel of oil in the process. No matter what the price - it will ALWAYS be bought and consumed. Our lives depend on the stuff.

the oil companies also bump thier prices up to make thier investors (and the executives, who generally are big shareholders) more money, so they use any excuse they can to justify increasing prices, wether it be slowdowns in production, refineries not being able to meet need, conflicts disrupting supply, or just scientific mumbo jumbo designed to decieve the public, either way, they get to bump thier prices, and they dont have to justify thier actions as they are virtually unaccountable

Of course - what discussion around the price of oil would be complete without attacking those heartless oil companies and their big-wig executives.

Well the BP annual report for the 2005 financial year shows that the largest shareholder on the Board of Directors has 2.2 million shares. The shareholding by executives are even more immaterial than those on the Board.

There is approximately 22 billion ordinary shares on issue for BP. 2.2 million shares is hardly a substantial shareholding. JP Morgan Chase bank holds 31% of BP stock - about 6 billion shares (so you can attack the banks now as well??).

Had i the time, id happily look up similar figures for other big oil companies. Feel free to do so yourself should you wish to support these ridiculous claims.

there are oil wells up through north queensland, simply drilled, capped and hidden in the bush, i've seen one and i know a couple of older guys who say they know of a dozen or so more.... there is a LOT more oil out there to be tapped into, but the oil companies have got all the boffins spinning us a line that we're running out..... like hell we are

Well i'm not an oil well technician - so i cant explain why they do this. I'd suggest there is a risk of oversimplifying the matter.

At the end of the day - this is nothing more than a finger pointing excercise. You dont like paying so much for petrol and as far as you are concerned - it's someone elses problem.

It's got nothing to do with our obsession with large, gas guzzling cars does it? It's got nothing to do with the fact that we've burnt about half of the oil which is easily accessible on our planet? Nothing to do with the fact that everything on that desk in front of you consumed more than its weight in oil during its production?

"It's OPEC's fault" "It's big-oil's fault" "It's the trader's fault" "It's not my fault"

Rubbish. It's our fault. But it's so much easier to point the blame at a cartel or a company isnt it?

[honer]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

If we could buy peace in the Middle East I could care less what it costs to fill my car.

As long as fuel is cheap I couldn't care about the middle east !

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by honer

As long as fuel is cheap I couldn't care about the middle east !

You should consider a career in foreign policy formation.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Do that and the major oil companies will close the Australian refineries.

If we had politicians who actually did some thing for the general public, these would have been closed already and taken over by a state owned entity, with the goal of extracting and refining fuel as cheap as possible,cost plus % ???.
The benefits to our economy and lifestyle would be huge.
I for one hope that it gets so out of control,that the uproar is so big they are forced to do this,the profit at all cost mentality dos'nt sit well with me.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by nugget378

If we had politicians who actually did some thing for the general public, these would have been closed already and taken over by a state owned entity, with the goal of extracting and refining fuel as cheap as possible,cost plus % ???.
The benefits to our economy and lifestyle would be huge.
I for one hope that it gets so out of control,that the uproar is so big they are forced to do this,the profit at all cost mentality dos'nt sit well with me.

Oh dear, go easy on him 4.9 EF Futura :Reverend:

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by nugget378

If we had politicians who actually did some thing for the general public, these would have been closed already and taken over by a state owned entity, with the goal of extracting and refining fuel as cheap as possible,cost plus % ???.
The benefits to our economy and lifestyle would be huge.
I for one hope that it gets so out of control,that the uproar is so big they are forced to do this,the profit at all cost mentality dos'nt sit well with me.

Im unsure of what expertise the state governments have in owning and operating an oil drilling/refinement operation? In order for it to run at a profit, the end product would probably cost more than it already does. "Who needs profit?" i hear you ask....

Well unfortunately people wont work for free and you cant purchase capital equipment with good intentions. You need money to make it work. Im not really keen on paying tax to subsidise losses made on fuel processing operations - kinda defeats the purpose.

And what about the 30% - 40% of our demand we cant supply domestically??

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Im unsure of what expertise the state governments have in owning and operating an oil drilling/refinement operation? In order for it to run at a profit, the end product would probably cost more than it already does. "Who needs profit?" i hear you ask....

Well unfortunately people wont work for free and you cant purchase capital equipment with good intentions. You need money to make it work. Im not really keen on paying tax to subsidise losses made on fuel processing operations - kinda defeats the purpose.

And what about the 30% - 40% of our demand we cant supply domestically??

Why does the government need any expertise? The people working there only need the expertise.
By profit I mean making money off trading,not actual profit from production cost.
Dont you think that trading in shares and making money for people/companies pushes the costs up? where does this money come from if not the end consumer?
There is no way there would be losses,all that needs to be done is the true cost of production needs to be worked out and a % added on.
What we have now is called a free market but anyone with common sense can see it is almost run like a monopoly, although evedence probably wont support it,I would bet my left nut that there is collusion/secret deals setting prices.
The government has owned enterprises historically (telco's etc) I dont remember reading anywhere that they had to be subsidised, they actually gave the government a dividend each year and employed far more people.
But I suppose it's not new age conservative enough to have full employment these day's,wages might rise.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Why does the government need any expertise? The people working there only need the expertise.
By profit I mean making money off trading,not actual profit from production cost.

Despite what you may believe - I believe that expertise is needed in more areas than the rig/refinery floor.

What management skills does the government have in running an oil company? Where would they source the management expertise from? HR, materials, technology, finance... you cant put a shovel into the soil without these functions. Do you think the market would sustain company executive remuneration if they werent worth their salt??

Its a nice thought that all you need is a few blokes who know how to run a refinery and an oil rig - but you do need people to manage the company to support these operations.

Lol - telecom might have made a profit on its books, but consider how much of its revenue was derived from government or government-owned businesses.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Well i'm not an oil well technician - so i cant explain why they do this. I'd suggest there is a risk of oversimplifying the matter.

Its part of our national reserves. We do similar things with mining resources. Also it should be kept in mind, that if we tapped and drew oil from every possible source in the ground, we would quickly run out of the capacity to refine it.

As to the pricing and the blame game played by many on Opec, the Masons, the Gray Aliens or whoever, the key indicators for oil price come from Stock markets world wide. Thats the global market. The stock market traders are not always correct in how they trend prices based on political or regional "tension" which is subjective and is easily and often used to do nothing except drive prices and profit, BUT, its what we have. Those who are unhappy with this system, should consider living in a Marxist/Lenninst Country, or raising an army or disposable Holden Bogans and invading oil rich countries.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Why does the government need any expertise? The people working there only need the expertise.
By profit I mean making money off trading,not actual profit from production cost.
Dont you think that trading in shares and making money for people/companies pushes the costs up? where does this money come from if not the end consumer?
There is no way there would be losses,all that needs to be done is the true cost of production needs to be worked out and a % added on.
What we have now is called a free market but anyone with common sense can see it is almost run like a monopoly, although evedence probably wont support it,I would bet my left nut that there is collusion/secret deals setting prices.
The government has owned enterprises historically (telco's etc) I dont remember reading anywhere that they had to be subsidised, they actually gave the government a dividend each year and employed far more people.
But I suppose it's not new age conservative enough to have full employment these day's,wages might rise.

Go comrade nugget!!
The government are still the marjority shareholder in Telstra and it seems to do ok, go figure :

But how to get major multi-national companies to play fair? Our worlds best practise, PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) seems a good start.

But what about the idelogical question about the state getting involved in actually trying to influence people lives for the better?

Some believe only the market can guide the economy, and would never vote for anyone trying to improve the lot of the rest of us by direct government involvement.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Despite what you may believe - I believe that expertise is needed in more areas than the rig/refinery floor.

What management skills does the government have in running an oil company? Where would they source the management expertise from? HR, materials, technology, finance... you cant put a shovel into the soil without these functions. Do you think the market would sustain company executive remuneration if they werent worth their salt??

Its a nice thought that all you need is a few blokes who know how to run a refinery and an oil rig - but you do need people to manage the company to support these operations.

Lol - telecom might have made a profit on its books, but consider how much of its revenue was derived from government or government-owned businesses.

Where did I mention the type of expertise/job descriptions neede.
Of course you need to have every aspect of the operation covered,even an idiot can see that.
Cant management types with experience in this industry be found? how are these company's run if suitably qualified people dont exist.
Seems like sometimes you debate just to support a view based on an ideology.
A very learned man once said "pan metro ariston" which means basically the middle path is correct,I just think we need to find solutions that offer the best outcome for the majority of Australians.Regardless of ideology.
Just think what cheaper fuel would do for us.
Lower cost of all consumer goods (less tranport cost)
More profits for all industries that rely on transport.
More disposable income for the average person (many benefit's to the country there alone)
Im sure there would be a downside too but the way I see it,the benefits of cheaper fuel outweigh any downside.

[red_hotxr6]

Is there some one here who knows or is old enough to know if this is something new. I am talking about at least 50plus years ago if we had a hurricane did the petrol prices rise or if there was a war going on say in the middle east or near that neck of the woods wdid oil prices rise.? I am just trying to put this in its proper perspective, because all it seems that has to happen is a "looming crisis" and petrol prices go up, immediately, hence the CEO,s of these companies put away a sum of money that we could only deem as, winning the lotto. So did this type of thing happen back in the good old days.? :

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Where did I mention the type of expertise/job descriptions needed

Basically?

Originally Posted by nugget

Why does the government need any expertise? The people working there only need the expertise

You're suggesting the government invest billions and billions of dollars in an industry they dont understand.

Seems like sometimes you debate just to support a view based on an ideology.

That's an understandable reading into my daily dribblings. I assure I have no ideological opposition to state-owned infrastructure (apart from my conservative beliefs) - I just dont think its viable for the government to be the proivder of our oil resources.

Just think what cheaper fuel would do for us.
.

That's the crux of it again, isnt it? You're willing to uproot an entire industry. Completely re invent the wheel into state controlled assets. Cut our ties with the global energy market. Basically, take every last dollar we have and gamble it on a single hand.

All so we can get cheaper petrol for our cars? There is more to life than driving a big car. Try explaining that to the majority of Australians.

Originally Posted by redhotxr6

Is there some one here who knows or is old enough to know if this is something new. I am talking about at least 50plus years ago if we had a hurricane did the petrol prices rise or if there was a war going on say in the middle east or near that neck of the woods wdid oil prices rise.? I am just trying to put this in its proper perspective, because all it seems that has to happen is a "looming crisis" and petrol prices go up, immediately, hence the CEO,s of these companies put away a sum of money that we could only deem as, winning the lotto. So did this type of thing happen back in the good old days.?

50 years ago, we werent afraid of waking up in the morning to find an empty oil well. Perhaps we should have been. If the sensitivity of oil prices to global events were as strong as it is nowadays, perhaps the historical price would have been higher, perhaps we wouldnt have used it all by now.

But no... instead, we are regailed with stories of dad driving his 5.8L supercar around "back in the good old days" when fuel was 20c/L.

Originally Posted by WorkHorse

But what about the idelogical question about the state getting involved in actually trying to influence people lives for the better?

Some believe only the market can guide the economy, and would never vote for anyone trying to improve the lot of the rest of us by direct government involvement

There are examples of both systems. Some have faired better than others.

Frankly I like being able to walk into the supermarket and buy a loaf of bread. Would be a shame if you had to line up for it because the state identified incorrect production values for the next '5 year plan'. I'll leave it at that.