Tax the rich?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

If everyone would simply agree with me we could all move on

That's what they all say (especially my wife)

[gtfpv]

well we'll just have to wait and see what becomes of this mess .

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

If everyone would simply agree with me we could all move on

But then the internets sole purposes really would be porn and cats.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Lotte

But then the internets sole purposes really would be porn and cats.

Problem being ?????

OH I see. Not everyone likes cats!!!!

[mik]

Well which ever way it pans out we need stop snowballing effect of pollies year upon year spending more and more cash than the country is making........ successive government over the years have let it get out of hand, not to mention the blatant voter bribery that goes on at voting time.
while theres some things I dont agree with in the budget, and some things that will hurt I really think a start needed to be made,
I would imagine mr hockey is not expecting to get all these items passed, and therefore it might end up somewhat watered down ???

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Problem being ?????

OH I see. Not everyone likes cats!!!!

I don't need to pay for interwebs to watch cats look dumb.
I have two of my own

[BHDOGS]

nah mate she will be sweet all those jobless youths without money dont worry mate your new fpv is safe mate we will take good care of it mate your bag dont worry love we will look after it for you that iphone your using dont worry bruz me and my ten moneyless mates will help you with that. The city is already a **** hole now its gonna be a worse **** hole with more crime.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by MAD

Entitlement: My business is successful, I should be able to claim a fancy car against my tax.

If you really are bothered by this, take out a novated lease next time. It amounts to more or less the same thing... claiming a deduction on an asset that isn't being used for work.

In any case, the business can only claim the usage related to work. If the car is used privately, the business pays FBT on the proportion of private use.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by MAD

Entitlement: My business is successful, I should be able to claim a fancy car against my tax.


Sure you've worked hard and deserve a nice car, I have nothing against that, but pay for it your damn self.
You don't need the welfare handout from the ATO. Remember? You have a successful business.


This "age of entitlement" is entwined in ALL of our society.

Actually ..... don't really understand what you are saying?

You do realise (and I know many don't) that if MY business buys me a car ...... it is actually coming out of MY pocket?

So, in reality (something that many aren't in) the car comes out of the owner of the business's own pocket if they buy themselves a car.

As far as tax goes ....... FBT is paid and quite severely as well. And that is on top of the purchase price the owner of the company has already paid.

Yes you can claim on depreciation and other tit bits ...... but also .... as a company I am currently running 9 cars and trucks. You do the maths on how much that would cost in a year to keep things moving? On rego alone (which is a tax) A bloody hell of a lot more than what is received back in any tax benefit.

And yes, it is very hard to get around FBT when you own a sedan. The ATO are not stupid by any stretch ...... unfortunately.

You know what I am really getting tired of reading here and on FB etc? That business owners, who bloody well put their own NUTS on the line every single day, have just soooo many perks tax wise etc and are so much better off than the ordinary workers who do all the work and worry. Most work hard at what they do but do not think that business owners sit back and just let it happen without doing their fair share ..... by a long shot. Also, the tax benefits doesn't flow like running water. The amount of tax paid by any company far out ways the amount that comes back. The ATO is not stupid.

To make sure that at the end of the day, everything is done, everyone is happy, the bills are paid and the house is not going to be lost to creditors is sometimes a daily task. That the ATO is paid on time and the super and pays are put into everyones bank .... heaven forbid you stuff up $3.00 in overtime.
To help keep a dozen families employed and so they in turn can pay their mortgages on time is a hell of a burden to go through continuously. We might have a few tax perks but when you pay 10's of 1,000's in GST alone every quarter ....... BELIEVE ME ...... the absolute MINISCULE bits that come back are just that.

I am not here to whinge about having a business ..... I do it because I enjoy it. I wouldn't be ware I am without the help from the employees. Its a hell of a challenge and at the end of the day I like that I have been able to employ quite a few families. They can go home and do their thing. I come home and sit on a computer all night looking at figures, working out ways to make things better, answer emails and chat on FB and AFF! Sort staffing issues, email suppliers, etc etc.

I leave a thrilling life and wouldn't have it any other way. But PLEASE ....... the amount of business's pay in tax compared to the amount that is received back because they have a 'luxury car' that has had FBT, LCT and GST paid on it isn't much what so ever. Same as owning a business. I pay 5 times the amount in tax than what I bring home ..... but still wouldn't have it any other way

Wish some here would have the balls to put their house and everything else on the line to help employ a few ...... then see how wonderful the tax system actually is. But its rewarding in the end. My choice. Harder than most would think and I am STILL looking for all these perks that I should have.

[MAD]

I appreciate that you employ people, and have no issue with you making a buttload of money if your business happens to be that successful.
I don't have the know-how or the will to run my own business, and I'm fine with that too.

I guess what I'm seeing is that it still boils down to the simple fact that ANY tax that comes back, is tax that ISN'T being collected by the ATO.
Every reason that has been listed above is just an excuse as to why it should be an entitlement.

It's your choice to run a business, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you supply jobs, and those people pay tax.

Another view:
You have 3 children that's your choice, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you will be spending a hefty amount on services (tax) and items (tax) to raise them, after which they will also pay taxes.


*NOTE: Any time I have said 'you' in this post, is not directed at you in particular Auslandau.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by MAD

I appreciate that you employ people, and have no issue with you making a buttload of money if your business happens to be that successful.
I don't have the know-how or the will to run my own business, and I'm fine with that too.

I guess what I'm seeing is that it still boils down to the simple fact that ANY tax that comes back, is tax that ISN'T being collected by the ATO.
Every reason that has been listed above is just an excuse as to why it should be an entitlement.

It's your choice to run a business, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you supply jobs, and those people pay tax.

Another view:
You have 3 children that's your choice, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you will be spending a hefty amount on services (tax) and items (tax) to raise them, after which they will also pay taxes.


*NOTE: Any time I have said 'you' in this post, is not directed at you in particular Auslandau.

So are you saying you should get a tax break for raising children, like you do running a business?

HELLO!

[MAD]

They do get a tax break essentially.
Hasn't that been mentioned/complained about a few times already in this thread?


But that is not what the comment was aimed at.
It was showing how a related tax payment can be used as a reason to have something given/offset.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by MAD

I appreciate that you employ people, and have no issue with you making a buttload of money if your business happens to be that successful.
I don't have the know-how or the will to run my own business, and I'm fine with that too.

I guess what I'm seeing is that it still boils down to the simple fact that ANY tax that comes back, is tax that ISN'T being collected by the ATO.
Every reason that has been listed above is just an excuse as to why it should be an entitlement.

It's your choice to run a business, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you supply jobs, and those people pay tax.

Another view:
You have 3 children that's your choice, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you will be spending a hefty amount on services (tax) and items (tax) to raise them, after which they will also pay taxes.


*NOTE: Any time I have said 'you' in this post, is not directed at you in particular Auslandau.

Appreciate not directed at me in particular but is to a degree .... and sticking up for us

As I said, my choice.

So you think its fair that I buy a car using my money from my business, which is my money anyway ..... and then must pay FBT to use my car that I bought with my money when I do so privately?

Bit like saying, you have to pay a brand new tax on your own car. Lets call it :Weekend tax! Would hate that wouldn't we? OH WAIT! Thats what I pay!

Everyone is entitled to a refund in tax. You buy lots for the 3 kids and some things are claimable, you get some back. Same as business. At the end of the year if we pay too much tax, we get a refund. Same as business .... but they pay more tax in different areas and sometimes some comes back under a different 'entitlement'. BUT ..... this is not a gift to companies! It is a refund for money given. Again, it's WAY less than what is paid. Its not a freebie. Govco do not give gifts!

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

You do realise (and I know many don't) that if MY business buys me a car ...... it is actually coming out of MY pocket?

It is amazing how many people think when an item is "tax deductable" it is paid for by someone else and doesn't cost anything to the purchaser.

Much like the falicy that when an employee gets a payrise, moves into the next tax bracket they suddenly pay more tax as a total and actually take home less.

I actually had an employer tell me that once too. But he was trying to get out of paying me more.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

So you think its fair that I buy a car using my money from my business, which is my money anyway ..... and then must pay FBT to use my car that I bought with my money when I do so privately?

I guess that depends on the tax rate the business pays. If it is less than what an individual pays for the same 'income', then perhaps it is the equaliser required.

Just another example showing that things need to be simplified I guess.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by MAD

I guess that depends on the tax rate the business pays. If it is less than what an individual pays for the same 'income', then perhaps it is the equaliser required.

Just another example showing that things need to be simplified I guess.

Bang!

It is complicated! Money goes back and forth stupidly trying to get some balance and is time consuming for the company trying to reduce what is paid in tax. Not because companies are trying to rort a system, but just trying to claim somethging back that is theirs. Same as individuals.

We buy something with GST, then we sell it with GST. Rather than double dipping twice from the government, the original GST is claimed and comes back as entitlement. If we didn't, the customer would be paying GST 2-5 times more than required. That is only 1 example of refunds and is complicated. It also costs companies money to keep on top of this. It's not fun! Heaps more examples

Payroll tax ..... Another stupid rort. I pay tax on the payroll over $300,000 so I can keep employing. Why?

Just saying ..... There needs to be something coming back somewhere. It's not all rainbows and lollipops. Business's big and small pay some weird taxes and only a very small amount comes back

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Business's big and small pay some weird taxes and only a very small amount comes back

Unless your name's Apple, Google, Microsoft etc

[XBROO]

I suppose the biggest advocate here is those that just say 'it's a tax write off', and to the ill informed that means it's free.

[gtfpv]

bill shortens labor budget reply , heavily related to taxing the rich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrxAlX6aOy8

[XWGT]

Just for clarity, no business pays GST.
The customer pays GST and the business remits it to the tax office (less the GST they as a customer have paid to another business)

Very important distinction. GST is not a business tax.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Just for clarity, no business pays GST.
The customer pays GST and the business remits it to the tax office (less the GST they as a customer have paid to another business)

Very important distinction. GST is not a business tax.

I agree, collecting the GST is a business cost!

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Unless your name's Apple, Google, Microsoft etc

And these are the businesses many are talking about.
Not local businesses doing things right...

[pottery beige]

I'm ready to lift some weight

Who's with me

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I agree, collecting the GST is a business cost!

I assume you never worked under the era of Wholesale Sales Tax then......

If you can work out a cheaper and easier way to collect and remit 10% of every transaction performed in Australia I'm sure the ATO and every other body in the world would love to hear from you.

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

i'm ready to lift some weight

who's with me

'hear hear'

[blueoval]

This is not an attack on you MAD. I understand where your coming from as I have been in your shoes before. I also do not claim to know it all either, but am stating some things I do know of based on my own experiences as a business owner.

Originally Posted by MAD

I appreciate that you employ people, and have no issue with you making a buttload of money if your business happens to be that successful.
I don't have the know-how or the will to run my own business, and I'm fine with that too.

Once you do get the know-how of what it takes to run your own business you will find that running it is not all fairy dust and sprinkles. We aren't all fat cats sitting back on Moet & Chandon while we force plebs to earn us the 'buttloads' of cash. It's a lot of hard work and late nights making sure our customers are being looked after. Not only do company owners pay tax on the company and any profit it earns, but they pay tax on their own personal income as well, as well employing staff, paying their super, delegating the work around from staff on sick/annual/bereavement/maternity/long service and any other leave they may be 'entitled' to. It's good if your an employee with these benefits. But as a small company owner I dont have the luxury of telling my clients who pay the bills that 'sorry I cant come into work today because of x reason' and still expect the work to be there when I return. If I don't do the work, my competitor get it. The business still needs to operate so that the employee has a job to come back to.

In Auslandau's defense I also run a company because I like to employ others and realize that I need the help, and that the employee has a HUGE impact on the way a business is run, so I agree there needs to be some give and take. I make sure I look after those who look after me. It's a 2 way street. But being a business owner also requires me having to drum up business, appeal to prospective customers, and come through with the promises on top of keeping existing customers happy.

Originally Posted by MAD

I guess what I'm seeing is that it still boils down to the simple fact that ANY tax that comes back, is tax that ISN'T being collected by the ATO.
Every reason that has been listed above is just an excuse as to why it should be an entitlement.

Unfortunately too many people think company = big money earned. I would agree if you are turning over cash like Google or Microsoft etc. But for a small company owners like myself, it's not the case at all. I take a wage/drawings that is probably about as much as you. Only because I want the business to survive so I choose not to drain the accounts of every last dollar. Any extra is saved for business expenses, wages for employees, tax, super etc. None of that is mine, nor do I feel Im entitled to it.

I do lease my car too. Its under a novated lease, it costs me to lease it, and it costs me more than to buy it outright. The only saving I get is from the fact my company pays the repayments. But also I do it as a salary sacrifice from my wages to offset the amount of FBT I would normally get charged for. All legally, all legitimately. If the ATO decided to abolish this, then I would suck it up, pay out the remainder of the lease and buy it outright. I would hate to know what would happen to leasing companies though if this were to happen.

Originally Posted by MAD

It's your choice to run a business, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you supply jobs, and those people pay tax.

Absolutely its my choice. I got sick of working for 'the man' and doing things HIS way so I started my own business and run it the way I want it to run. But I am not by far a tax free entity rolling in wads of coin and nor is the company I run. It's bloody hard running a business and it's not without it good and bad points INCLUDING paying its share of tax.

Originally Posted by MAD

Another view:
You have 3 children that's your choice, you deal with the costs of doing so.
But you will be spending a hefty amount on services (tax) and items (tax) to raise them, after which they will also pay taxes.

It's unfair to compare a child with a company, they both are under different obligations. Children are lifetime obligations. A company can be dissolved if one chooses to do so and walk away.

Again, this is not an attack on you personally MAD. But I do challenge those who seem to think small company/business owners are all tax dodging thugs rolling in squllions due to loop holes.

People need to remember, running a business is literally HARD WORK in and above the work needed to be done by employees.

Why do I bother being a business owner? because I choose to be independent. I choose to want to run a business the way I think it should be run, I choose to accept the consequences of my actions should a decision I make go wrong. I choose to enjoy the challenge of accomplishing my dream. I don't have to, but without business owners, you wouldn't be employed yourself, tax or no tax.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by XBROO

'hear hear'

from a bros bookface

Work gave me a "labourer" to help get job finished on Monday,
He rocked up at 10, disappeared, found him in his car at 12, got him on roof till 3:30, tues, got there at 7;15, disappeared again numerous times thru day, Wednesday he worked full day, Thursday no show, today no show,
Hope he comes to work Monday so I can use him to clean up all the rubbish then tell him to go to centrelink Bcos he's fired. 30 yr old two kids, think he would have his shot sorted


this is the bs we're up against...

and they breed....

why should clowns like this be equal to me.. congrats comrades such fantastic socialist experiments

ffs go smoke bongs

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

from a bros bookface

Work gave me a "labourer" to help get job finished on Monday,
He rocked up at 10, disappeared, found him in his car at 12, got him on roof till 3:30, tues, got there at 7;15, disappeared again numerous times thru day, Wednesday he worked full day, Thursday no show, today no show,
Hope he comes to work Monday so I can use him to clean up all the rubbish then tell him to go to centrelink Bcos he's fired. 30 yr old two kids, think he would have his shot sorted


this is the bs we're up against...

and they breed....

why should clowns like this be equal to me.. congrats comrades such fantastic socialist experiments

ffs go smoke bongs

It's actually pretty common these days, they get told to find a job or their dole will be cut off. Then they try and get the sack, so they can go back on it again. If they have nothing to pay off like a house or car, then you can survive on the dole.

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by blueoval

This is not an attack on you MAD. I understand where your coming from as I have been in your shoes before. I also do not claim to know it all either, but am stating some things I do know of based on my own experiences as a business owner.



Once you do get the know-how of what it takes to run your own business you will find that running it is not all fairy dust and sprinkles. We aren't all fat cats sitting back on Moet & Chandon while we force plebs to earn us the 'buttloads' of cash. It's a lot of hard work and late nights making sure our customers are being looked after. Not only do company owners pay tax on the company and any profit it earns, but they pay tax on their own personal income as well, as well employing staff, paying their super, delegating the work around from staff on sick/annual/bereavement/maternity/long service and any other leave they may be 'entitled' to. It's good if your an employee with these benefits. But as a small company owner I dont have the luxury of telling my clients who pay the bills that 'sorry I cant come into work today because of x reason' and still expect the work to be there when I return. If I don't do the work, my competitor get it. The business still needs to operate so that the employee has a job to come back to.

In Auslandau's defense I also run a company because I like to employ others and realize that I need the help, and that the employee has a HUGE impact on the way a business is run, so I agree there needs to be some give and take. I make sure I look after those who look after me. It's a 2 way street. But being a business owner also requires me having to drum up business, appeal to prospective customers, and come through with the promises on top of keeping existing customers happy.



Unfortunately too many people think company = big money earned. I would agree if you are turning over cash like Google or Microsoft etc. But for a small company owners like myself, it's not the case at all. I take a wage/drawings that is probably about as much as you. Only because I want the business to survive so I choose not to drain the accounts of every last dollar. Any extra is saved for business expenses, wages for employees, tax, super etc. None of that is mine, nor do I feel Im entitled to it.

I do lease my car too. Its under a novated lease, it costs me to lease it, and it costs me more than to buy it outright. The only saving I get is from the fact my company pays the repayments. But also I do it as a salary sacrifice from my wages to offset the amount of FBT I would normally get charged for. All legally, all legitimately. If the ATO decided to abolish this, then I would suck it up, pay out the remainder of the lease and buy it outright. I would hate to know what would happen to leasing companies though if this were to happen.



Absolutely its my choice. I got sick of working for 'the man' and doing things HIS way so I started my own business and run it the way I want it to run. But I am not by far a tax free entity rolling in wads of coin and nor is the company I run. It's bloody hard running a business and it's not without it good and bad points INCLUDING paying its share of tax.



It's unfair to compare a child with a company, they both are under different obligations. Children are lifetime obligations. A company can be dissolved if one chooses to do so and walk away.

Again, this is not an attack on you personally MAD. But I do challenge those who seem to think small company/business owners are all tax dodging thugs rolling in squllions due to loop holes.

People need to remember, running a business is literally HARD WORK in and above the work needed to be done by employees.

Why do I bother being a business owner? because I choose to be independent. I choose to want to run a business the way I think it should be run, I choose to accept the consequences of my actions should a decision I make go wrong. I choose to enjoy the challenge of accomplishing my dream. I don't have to, but without business owners, you wouldn't be employed yourself, tax or no tax.

Absolutely I would never want to run my own business, I much rather just do my hours, do a good job and go home. Let the boss take all the worries home with him.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Absolutely I would never want to run my own business, I much rather just do my hours, do a good job and go home. Let the boss take all the worries home with him.

And that's fair enough too. Employees get their full entitlements without the worry. Business owners get some tax breaks for providing the employment, no matter how big/small they are. Govco needs to make it worthwhile for business owners to stay in business or we would all be looking for employment working for the man or on the dole queue.