The Aviation thread - Page 21

rocketscientist · 03-02-2011, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghiagirl

Hey guys, does anyone know if the Avalon airshow this year is actually going to have anything different from previous years, more specifically the F22 raptor which they've teased is with for years but never had there???

http://www.airshow.net.au/avalon2011...-releases.html
AUSTRALIAN FIRST - STEALTH FIGHTERS AT AIRSHOW

Though with all things Avalon, you just don't know until the day of the event.

There's a very nice line-up of US types "scheduled*" to attend.

* Subject to operation contingencies.

**Kingsley** · 04-02-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketscientist

http://www.airshow.net.au/avalon2011...-releases.html
AUSTRALIAN FIRST - STEALTH FIGHTERS AT AIRSHOW

Though with all things Avalon, you just don't know until the day of the event.

There's a very nice line-up of US types "scheduled*" to attend.

* Subject to operation contingencies.

In 2007, I was working at 33 SQN on the last of the 707's. As part of the 707's final Avalon appearence we had to paint some nose art on depicting the aircrafts history with the SQN. At the airshow there was minature's of the aircraft with nose art for sale.
The aircraft had been a bit of a problem child spending a lot of time in the hangar with various problems. However the week leading up to the show it ran faultlesly ferring various personnel and equipment. On it's last run to Avalon for display it **** itself at the end of the runway and never made it to Avalon. Kind of embarrasing selling the minitures of an aircraft with nose art on it's farewell tour they couldn't see!!!

Morexbs · 09-02-2011, 06:22 PM

After many idle hours spent in the viewing area at Tullamarine Airport I have a question which I hope someone can answer.
Why do United Airlines 747s only need such a short distance to take off compared to Qantas 747s and even some other smaller planes?
If they are using the long runway and taking off towards Sunbury the United planes are up and away by the time they get to the viewing area but the Qantas planes are about halfway into their run up (that may not be a technical term).
This is not based on a one-off observation,but probably a dozen instances I have seen and it's always the same.

MexicanBatman · 09-02-2011, 07:27 PM

They probably request a different holding point, other than that probably carrying less weight QF carries a lot of freight... Plenty of other reasons I'm sure the pilots could answer

Spanrz · 09-02-2011, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morexbs

Why do United Airlines 747s only need such a short distance to take off compared to Qantas 747s and even some other smaller planes?

I'll come from a passenger POV. After flying with United many times from Melbourne, most of the passengers get on at Sydney for the San Fran / LA flights.
Qantas, is usually booked more from Melbourne on this leg.

So the key point here is : weight.

motomk · 09-02-2011, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morexbs

After many idle hours spent in the viewing area at Tullamarine Airport I have a question which I hope someone can answer.
Why do United Airlines 747s only need such a short distance to take off compared to Qantas 747s and even some other smaller planes?
If they are using the long runway and taking off towards Sunbury the United planes are up and away by the time they get to the viewing area but the Qantas planes are about halfway into their run up (that may not be a technical term).
This is not based on a one-off observation,but probably a dozen instances I have seen and it's always the same.

As mentioned it is weight. The United Jumbos are only going to Sydney so need little fuel. Whereas the Qantas Jumbos will probably be going direct to LA if it around the same time or NZ. Sometimes it is a A380.
The same sort of thing happens with Qantas B767s...most of them will be going to Sydney so need little distance to take off whereas for example a Cathay A330 will use a lot as it is going to Hong Kong...lots of fuel.
Go out there after midnight in the next few weeks and you will be blown away by the noise! We have been at work. The Internationals that depart after midnight have only got 2/3 of the long runway to use as there is repaving going on. They are using a lot more thrust than normal to take off in the shorter distance and you can tell. Probably also they are nearer the ground further down the runway so you can hear it. The shorter East-West runway is closed at present.

Morexbs · 09-02-2011, 11:26 PM

That makes perfect sense.Thanks for that.
Why is the short runway closed and what are they building over on the other side of it?

motomk · 09-02-2011, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morexbs

That makes perfect sense.Thanks for that.
Why is the short runway closed and what are they building over on the other side of it?

They are repaving the short east-west runway, the intersection and the Northern part of the long runway. When they have completed that, they will do the southern part of the long runway and use the shorter east-west runway to depart at night. I believe the blue stuff over the other side is all the plant and equipment to do this. They are only working on the long runway at night. The intersection and the northern part of the long runway is available during the day. ie The whole runway is available during the day.

http://www.melbourneairport.com.au/A...e-Overlay.html

These are pictures from the A380 upgrade the runway had a few years back.
http://www.beca.com/projects/transpo...y_upgrade.aspx

Morexbs · 09-02-2011, 11:53 PM

Thanks again!

MexicanBatman · 10-02-2011, 12:29 AM

yeah if your there after midnight theres reduced length 25xxm from memory (i hear it over the radio often enough)

funny the other night QF29 was given 3.5min to get airborne, they didn't make it so had to sit for another 30m then taxi to 34 LOL, most hold on the gate, or get a move on..

motomk · 10-02-2011, 06:17 AM

And they are building a new apartment block next door to the control tower. New airport initiative, to make money by selling apartments with city and airport views.

April fools! New tower really!

MAGPIE · 10-02-2011, 08:26 AM

Air NZ new 777-300 landing at Wellington (not somewhere it would usually land) needed to be empty to get in there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1J8YaVmCTQ

Also a Dash 8 landed at Blenhiem yesterday without front landing gear, nice work by the pilots.

Swordsman88 · 10-02-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomk

As mentioned it is weight. The United Jumbos are only going to Sydney so need little fuel. Whereas the Qantas Jumbos will probably be going direct to LA if it around the same time or NZ. Sometimes it is a A380.
The same sort of thing happens with Qantas B767s...most of them will be going to Sydney so need little distance to take off whereas for example a Cathay A330 will use a lot as it is going to Hong Kong...lots of fuel.
Go out there after midnight in the next few weeks and you will be blown away by the noise! We have been at work. The Internationals that depart after midnight have only got 2/3 of the long runway to use as there is repaving going on. They are using a lot more thrust than normal to take off in the shorter distance and you can tell. Probably also they are nearer the ground further down the runway so you can hear it. The shorter East-West runway is closed at present.

A very good explanation motomk.... Not sure about the things seeming louder due to increased thrust....i don't know if a turbofan makes that much differece in noise due to a thrust setting change but certainly if they are lower to the ground (and with less background noise at night) they will 'seem' louder.

Its always interesting when i do the (very rare these days) long haul flights in the 767 (syd-honolulu for eg.) because you certainly notice the extra weight all the way from taxi to takeoff roll and then when into the air. cityflyers are much easier on the aircraft....even at full derate there is more than enough room at virtually any runway you may be using...

motomk · 10-02-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

A very good explanation motomk.... Not sure about the things seeming louder due to increased thrust....i don't know if a turbofan makes that much differece in noise due to a thrust setting change but certainly if they are lower to the ground (and with less background noise at night) they will 'seem' louder.

Must be closer to the ground then, as it feels like the building is shaking!
Watched a B737 freighter land last night and it is interesting watching them land half way down the runway.

Swordsman88 · 10-02-2011, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomk

Must be closer to the ground then, as it feels like the building is shaking!
Watched a B737 freighter land last night and it is interesting watching them land half way down the runway.

The funny thing is that since the determining factor is really the distance between the aircraft and your location for noise it can sometimes be the reverse. For example if an aircraft takes off at full power and gets airborne earlier (and climbs faster too) than it will be higher at your location. Same aircraft climbs slower and takes off later with a derated engine setting so now it appears louder at your location. Of course when very heavy aircraft are both low, slow and at full grunt so yes, that would be the loudest of all setups.

The 'noise abatement' measures of 30-40 years ago aren't used these days. Given all those noisier craft have been banned from most australian ports its more to do with minimising fuel burn and wear and tear so derating is the way to go. Given lower temps the night time freighters (which are usually more heavilly loaded aircraft than passenger aircraft) often derate as well on very long capital city strips.....hence they are pretty low during their climb out and hence pretty noisy. Kind of counter intuitive but i've never been one for worrying about aircraft noise personally....unless you build very close to an airport modern aircraft aren't that noisy on approach/dep any way. Not like the 707 days!

RE the 737 freighter landing half way down the strip this is often intentional during low traffic times....the pilot requests the 'displaced touch down' from the tower and then lands 'long' on purpose. The idea is to minimise the roll out between touch down and the first available exit. Not something you see all that often but perfectly safe if you are landing a 737 on a 10k+ runway for example. If the first exit you want to use is 6000ft down the runway and you need only 4000ft to stop at low level braking than you might as well float over 2000ft of the strip anyway no? Either that or the pilot of your aircraft had a very bad float and/or bad approach and just put it down anyway given he thought no one was looking too closely in the wee hours lol!

motomk · 10-02-2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

The funny thing is that since the determining factor is really the distance between the aircraft and your location for noise it can sometimes be the reverse. For example if an aircraft takes off at full power and gets airborne earlier (and climbs faster too) than it will be higher at your location. Same aircraft climbs slower and takes off later with a derated engine setting so now it appears louder at your location. Of course when very heavy aircraft are both low, slow and at full grunt so yes, that would be the loudest of all setups.

The 'noise abatement' measures of 30-40 years ago aren't used these days. Given all those noisier craft have been banned from most australian ports its more to do with minimising fuel burn and wear and tear so derating is the way to go. Given lower temps the night time freighters (which are usually more heavilly loaded aircraft than passenger aircraft) often derate as well on very long capital city strips.....hence they are pretty low during their climb out and hence pretty noisy. Kind of counter intuitive but i've never been one for worrying about aircraft noise personally....unless you build very close to an airport modern aircraft aren't that noisy on approach/dep any way. Not like the 707 days!

RE the 737 freighter landing half way down the strip this is often intentional during low traffic times....the pilot requests the 'displaced touch down' from the tower and then lands 'long' on purpose. The idea is to minimise the roll out between touch down and the first available exit. Not something you see all that often but perfectly safe if you are landing a 737 on a 10k+ runway for example. If the first exit you want to use is 6000ft down the runway and you need only 4000ft to stop at low level braking than you might as well float over 2000ft of the strip anyway no? Either that or the pilot of your aircraft had a very bad float and/or bad approach and just put it down anyway given he thought no one was looking too closely in the wee hours lol!

Ah you may have missed it, that the runway is reduced length at night so very displaced threshold and repaving works. That was the reason for the B737 landing half way down the runway.
That was also the comment re the internationals using (I am guessing) higher thrust than normal due the 2/3 length runway in operation at night and not the noise sensative take-offs (reduced thrust) they normally do!
Noise doesn't worry me either only when I hear spooling up over my house as it sounds like they got it wrong! That used to be the case when I lived in Keilor, when the Internationals were turning on the visual approach from the south over Essendon, if they were low or slow, the engines would spool up and it would sound like it was about to land in your front yard!! I would rush outside to see a B777 disappearing into the night!!!

MAGPIE · 10-02-2011, 07:47 PM

This is a great landing...

Dash 8 Landing (no front gear)

Swordsman88 · 10-02-2011, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomk

Ah you may have missed it, that the runway is reduced length at night so very displaced threshold and repaving works. That was the reason for the B737 landing half way down the runway.
That was also the comment re the internationals using (I am guessing) higher thrust than normal due the 2/3 length runway in operation at night and not the noise sensative take-offs (reduced thrust) they normally do!
Noise doesn't worry me either only when I hear spooling up over my house as it sounds like they got it wrong! That used to be the case when I lived in Keilor, when the Internationals were turning on the visual approach from the south over Essendon, if they were low or slow, the engines would spool up and it would sound like it was about to land in your front yard!! I would rush outside to see a B777 disappearing into the night!!!

Ah yes i missed that bit about the reduced runway lenght. If landing from the end under maintenance than you will have a 'displaced threshold' as you point out and it all makes sense. Have they painted any markers on the runway for when its being used as a displaced set up? If its only at night i suppose it won't be an issue as long as they put in some lights to denote the closed bit!

The spooling up thing is pretty standard ifyou hapen to be right under a particular part of the approach. As the flaps come out (and gear etc.) than you will always get a bit of spooling up (esp if its also a turn) no matter how careful your speed control is. The drag goes up very significantly with all that stuff hanging out so its either spool up and maintain descent rate or nose over and descend faster. Obviously option B is not the best when on late final....

motomk · 11-02-2011, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

This is a great landing...

Dash 8 Landing (no front gear)

Agree there. I am not a pilot but that looked like an excellent landing. Hopefully the Dash and its pilots can get back in the air again soon.

A few of the worlds Dash8s have had this happen to them haven't they?

Swordsman88 · 11-02-2011, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomk

Agree there. I am not a pilot but that looked like an excellent landing. Hopefully the Dash and its pilots can get back in the air again soon.

A few of the worlds Dash8s have had this happen to them haven't they?

Not a bad job at all under the circumstances. Interesting it was on a flight to wellington but chose to divert and land on what appears to be a grass strip. Mentioned this to a pilot mate of mine....was wondering if that was on purpose to minimise damage since grass is a bit less wear on the metal gear doors (which are open) than asphalt?

Yes Dash 8s do have this occur from time to time but so do alot of aircraft in that class and even (very rarely these days) larger aircraft. Air Nelson (who operate it for air new zealand) have had a few of these happen recently on dash 8s, including one on the same airstrip where the nose wheel collapsed after not locking down properly...

EDIT: thanks for the PM RE the melb runway works motomk.

MAGPIE · 11-02-2011, 05:11 AM

No it's not a grass strip, normal tarmac. Wellington is the major regional hub so they don't like planes crashing there as it stuffs up the whole network which is why they divert to Blenhiem.

Swordsman88 · 11-02-2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

No it's not a grass strip, normal tarmac. Wellington is the major regional hub so they don't like planes crashing there as it stuffs up the whole network which is why they divert to Blenhiem.

thanks for the explanation magpie. I thought that grass strip was very 'flat' but you can't see the tarmac from that angle in the video is all.

Romulus · 13-02-2011, 11:36 PM

Did anyone watch 60 Minutes tonight? It featured the story of the A380 which blew an engine enroute from Singapore.

The skill of the pilot and crew was outstanding and that the A380 didn't disintegrate was amazing. Well done Richard de Crespegny and Qantas!

**Kingsley** · 17-02-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Did anyone watch 60 Minutes tonight? It featured the story of the A380 which blew an engine enroute from Singapore.

The skill of the pilot and crew was outstanding and that the A380 didn't disintegrate was amazing. Well done Richard de Crespegny and Qantas!

Considering the damage, the pilot did an outstanding job. What I'd like to know is the extent of the damage to the main spar in the wing. The hole seems to be further back which was 'lucky'.

Spudz27 · 26-02-2011, 06:49 PM

Hey guys rather than post this in the for sale area because it is aviation related I am selling my 1:200 scale Qantas 767. PM me if you are interested. There is a pic of it somewhere in this thread lol.

motomk · 01-03-2011, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaskel

as far as I kn ow the F22 is not there..nothing new and exciting...otherwise id begoing.

It will be there! It will be there! Stereo!

A whirly roof plane!
Aeroplane with lots of engines.
Aeroplane that appears on ABC Bananas in pyjamas x 2, so might fly!, not the second one though.
Italian Baby herc!
Brazilian Bizjet plus various other bizjets.
F16s of a couple of denominations

All a bit criptic, sorry about that.

iCat · 01-03-2011, 08:54 AM

don't forget the B1 - i'm going, can't wait!

ltd · 01-03-2011, 11:28 AM

Saw Bruce Dickinsons Iron Maiden 757 parked at yssy this morning, went over, met him and spoke for about an hour. What a hell of a nice guy.

MexicanBatman · 01-03-2011, 01:19 PM

Yeah last week it was in Melbourne I got a pic of it but some guys went and got a photo with him etc... I didn't bother considering I can't recall any iron maiden songs, and that would have been embarrassing.

Swordsman88 · 13-04-2011, 02:44 PM

Hey guys...thought i'd give this thread a bit of a reboot via a new pic from flight sim. Due to enforced breakdown i had to overhaul my PC and while not perfect for the job the new specs match the required performance for flight sim X (as opposed to the heavilly modified FS9 i used before). So i am in the rather laborious process of converting over to FSX with associated mods. While pushing my machine a bit (still using old graphics card so will have to upgrade that too i suppose at some point) it does look good when you have the right stuff.

Shown is a quick look (poor pic looks better in the sim) at the very well modelled cairns airport (new) domestic terminal. Pictured is my fave 767 VH-OGM (city of bundaberg). Check out the realism of the catering truck in the background and ground support equip.... Looks the ducks nxxxs out in the wider tropical scenery too.... Will enjoy tootling around in this setup when its all done i think.